R+L =J v. 115

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

So all things considered, please inform us your opinion what is the blue flower growing from the chink in the wall of ice? and how do you come to that conclusion?

I haven't fully formed an answer that question. But if I were following the trail of blue roses, I'd strongly consider what the vision might tell me about Stark daughters.

Rhaegar and Lyanna were never at the Wall.

Not sure how to verify that. How did you find out?

...the roses I was referring to were Lyanna's. As in: Where did Lyanna's roses come from? The answer: Rhaegar.

Oh, I thought you were talking about Martin's trail of blue roses. Martin's blue roses appear to be metaphors for Stark daughters, a part of the history and identity of Winterfell - and that's the primary connection between Lyanna and the flower. But I agree that your trail of blue roses appears to begin and end with Rhaegar. I would challenge you to take a closer look.

[IceFire125]

I haven't fully formed an answer that question. But if I were following the trail of blue roses, I'd strongly consider what the vision might tell me about Stark daughters.

So, between Sansa and Arya, which do you feel is represented with that blue flower in regards to that vision? because right now, the 2 characters are by far no where near a wall of ice, or will ever be close to it.

If you say Arya, then by all means, the answer would be Lyanna, she's closest to her in looks and character, but that's also pointing to Jon, which would be against your point to begin with.

If you say Sansa, her connection with flower is represented to ser Loras giving her a rose at the tourney, reminiscent to Rhaegar and Lyanna connection at a much earlier tournament, which would also be against your point.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Well, since Martin never mentions blue rosehips, the flower-fruit metaphor is apparently not one he used.

A common refrain around here seems to be that Jon is a product of both his parents. Now having ruled out the possibility that Jon is depicted as a "blue rosehip"... you should be well equipped to consider what other fruit metaphors he has at his disposal for describing Jon. In fact, I've already provided you a link.

...the way the blue rose is used in Bael's story is not necessarily the same as the way it is used in R+L - the most important distinction being that Bael kept the rose for himself and didn't gift it to the girl.... The notion that the blue rose must function in the same way in two entirely different stories ir rather unfounded.

The only story I've taken into consideration is A Song of Ice and Fire. Both the song of the winter rose and accounts of the Harrenhal tourney appear within ASOIAF - and in that context, the first provides in-story interpretive context for the other. In fact, I'd argue that starting with the Harrenhal account is the wrong way to approach this - because you can't work backwards, interpreting an earlier event in terms of more recent history. Sure, Martin presents the blue rose crown of Harrenhal fame first... but then, Martin's sort of got a thing for revealing his story in non sequential ways. Clearly the tale of Bael the bard preceded Rhaegar - and it's reasonable to think that the crown prince's actions were interpreted in light of that story. By members of House Stark, in particular. (Whether Rhaegar had any clue what he'd done is another question...)

Why do you say that Bael "kept the rose for himself?" Do you mean the actual flower, or the Stark's maiden daughter? As I read the story, he kept neither for himself in the end.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

So, between Sansa and Arya, which do you feel is represented with that blue flower in regards to that vision? because right now, the 2 characters are by far no where near a wall of ice, or will ever be close to it.

If you say Arya, then by all means, the answer would be Lyanna, she's closest to her in looks and character, but that's also pointing to Jon, which would be against your point to begin with.

If you say Sansa, her connection with flower is represented to ser Loras giving her a rose at the tourney, reminiscent to Rhaegar and Lyanna connection at a much earlier tournament, which would also be against your point.

The obvious answer to consider is Lyanna herself, whose story remains almost entirely untold. But you can see why I'd say that response is not fully formed... it would be difficult to confirm or deny that identification, given how little we know of Lyanna Stark.

Otherwise, I think you're misunderstanding my "point." What I'm pointing out here is not that blue roses have nothing to do with Jon, but that (as metaphor/symbol) the blue flower is not Jon. And it is certainly not Rhaegar.

[J. Stargaryen]

Oh, I thought you were talking about Martin's trail of blue roses. Martin's blue roses appear to be metaphors for Stark daughters, a part of the history and identity of Winterfell - and that's the primary connection between Lyanna and the flower. But I agree that your trail of blue roses appears to begin and end with Rhaegar. I would challenge you to take a closer look.

Yeah. I should do that sometime.

[Ygrain]

A common refrain around here seems to be that Jon is a product of both his parents. Now having ruled out the possibility that Jon is depicted as a "blue rosehip"... you should be well equipped to consider what other fruit metaphors he has at his disposal for describing Jon. In fact, I've already provided you a link.

There is an instant when a child is a product of a single parent? Even Mary needed the holy Spirit to conceive.

You did? Where?

The only story I've taken into consideration is A Song of Ice and Fire. Both the song of the winter rose and accounts of the Harrenhal tourney appear within ASOIAF - and in that context, the first provides in-story interpretive context for the other. In fact, I'd argue that starting with the Harrenhal account is the wrong way to approach this - because you can't work backwards, interpreting an earlier event in terms of more recent history. Sure, Martin presents the blue rose crown of Harrenhal fame first... but then, Martin's sort of got a thing for revealing his story in non sequential ways. Clearly the tale of Bael the bard preceded Rhaegar - and it's reasonable to think that the crown prince's actions were interpreted in light of that story. By members of House Stark, in particular. (Whether Rhaegar had any clue what he'd done is another question...)

Why do you say that Bael "kept the rose for himself?" Do you mean the actual flower, or the Stark's maiden daughter? As I read the story, he kept neither for himself in the end.

Someone playing obtuse here concerning "story".

Bael did not gift the rose to the Stark daughter.

[IceFire125]

The obvious answer to consider is Lyanna herself, whose story remains almost entirely untold. But you can see why I'd say that response is not fully formed... it would be difficult to confirm or deny that identification, given how little we know of Lyanna Stark.

Otherwise, I think you're misunderstanding my "point." What I'm pointing out here is not that blue roses have nothing to do with Jon, but that (as metaphor/symbol) the blue flower is not Jon. And it is certainly not Rhaegar.

I see your reasons, however, I disagree with such thinking.

Mainly, I feel that you just purposely do not want to see Jon in those symbolism, or that you want to see GRRM to confirm it with obvious text, that Jon is that blue flower.

We, fans of R+L=J, do not think like this, we see GRRM's word associations, his wordplay, and patterns, to the point that once a reader has accepted the theory, it's obvious for us. But for those that do not believe the theory, will undoubtedly want GRRM's text to plainly state it out loud for them, which he won't do until the eventual revelation later in the series.

That's why I asked you the question before, what is your opinion of the symbolism of the blue flower growing from the chink in the wall of ice, represent?

Because you coming here without an open mind about R+L=J, blue roses, etc, to which fans way before my time in this forum have concluded to represent the fruit of Rhaegar and Lyanna, will naturally be in disagreement, but to push on saying that you find it odd and surprise that folks believe it, is disingenuous on your part to assume such.

[Ygrain]

Yeah. I should do that sometime.

Yeah, definitely. You overlook so many subtleties.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Good morning, new thread! Thank you BearQueen87!

No, the embargo is lifted tomorrow (11/27),

which has in time come to be today. Rejoice!

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Yeah. I should do that sometime.

I've read it. That's the same post you linked to earlier.

Someone playing obtuse here concerning "story". ...

I'm not playing obtuse. I'm pointing out that both Bael and Rhaegar appear as part of one story. You can't simply separate them in order to justify inconsistent interpretation of common elements. The blue winter rose is a symbol and metaphor that operates within the fictional history of Westeros - a history in which both Bael and (later) Rhaegar exist and play a part. You suggested that Martin is writing at least two different stories -- (1) Bael the bard, and (2) R+L=J -- and that these stories were so different that we should not expect the blue winter rose to represent the same thing in one that it does in the other. I say that doesn't fly. There may be different narrative threads but this is one story Martin is telling, and it's much bigger than "R=L=J".

I see your reasons, however, I disagree with such thinking.

Mainly, I feel that you just purposely do not want to see Jon in those symbolism, or that you want to see GRRM to confirm it with obvious text, that Jon is that blue flower.

We, fans of R+L=J, do not think like this, we see GRRM's word associations, his wordplay, and patterns, to the point that once a reader has accepted the theory, it's obvious for us. But for those that do not believe the theory, will undoubtedly want GRRM's text to plainly state it out loud for them, which he won't do until the eventual revelation later in the series.

That's why I asked you the question before, what is your opinion of the symbolism of the blue flower growing from the chink in the wall of ice, represent?

Because you coming here without an open mind about R+L=J, blue roses, etc, to which fans way before my time in this forum have concluded to represent the fruit of Rhaegar and Lyanna, will naturally be in disagreement, but to push on saying that you find it odd and surprise that folks believe it, is disingenuous on your part to assume such.

No, I'm not being disingenuous at all. I enjoy disagreement. I don't necessarily believe that R+L=J, but I do enjoy talking about it and reading what others have to say about it. (That's why I come here.) I try hard to post and interact with others respectfully - even when we disagree - and hope others receive and respond to my posts in like manner. I was very honest when I said that I find it surprising so many readers identify Jon as the blue flower (not "blue rose") in Dany's vision - and for the reason I provided: that there are very few (if any) other places in the text where Martin uses the flower metaphor to represent his male characters, and none with respect to the blue rose. Looking back, I certainly include myself as one of those readers I was referring to - until recently I had not considered those two observations in light of one another, and I have certainly identified Jon with Dany's "blue flower" in the past. (Though I am unlikely to connect them in that way moving forward, I think.)

It's not that I don't want to see Jon in the symbolism, and refuse to consider it. It's that I viewed it that way before - and have reconsidered it.

[Black Crow]

Bael did not gift the rose to the Stark daughter.

Quite so. Bael asked for the rose, which the Lord Stark interpreted literally and presented him with a blue one. Bael had quite another rose in mind however, took the daughter and left the blue one behind.

[Dorian Martell]

Hodor

[Ygrain]

I'm not playing obtuse. I'm pointing out that both Bael and Rhaegar appear as part of one story. You can't simply separate them in order to justify inconsistent interpretation of common elements. The blue winter rose is a symbol and metaphor that operates within the fictional history of Westeros - a history in which both Bael and (later) Rhaegar exist and play a part. You suggested that Martin is writing at least two different stories -- (1) Bael the bard, and (2) R+L=J -- and that these stories were so different that we should not expect the blue winter rose to represent the same thing in one that it does in the other. I say that doesn't fly. There may be different narrative threads but this is one story Martin is telling, and it's much bigger than "R=L=J".

GRRM writes stories within stories and while they may be parallel in some elements, they differ in others.

[Mithras]

By the way, I hope people do realize that Bael's story of plucking the winter rose didnot happen. It is a fancy bard tale. Bael is a glorified wildling raider, too perfect to be true.

That is why, the sole purpose of Bael's story was to shed lights on R+L.

[J. Stargaryen]

I've read it. That's the same post you linked to earlier.

In that case, the comment I was replying to was out of place, to say the least.

No, I'm not being disingenuous at all. I enjoy disagreement. I don't necessarily believe that R+L=J, but I do enjoy talking about it and reading what others have to say about it. (That's why I come here.) I try hard to post and interact with others respectfully - even when we disagree - and hope others receive and respond to my posts in like manner. I was very honest when I said that I find it surprising so many readers identify Jon as the blue flower (not "blue rose") in Dany's vision - and for the reason I provided: that there are very few (if any) other places in the text where Martin uses the flower metaphor to represent his male characters, and none with respect to the blue rose. Looking back, I certainly include myself as one of those readers I was referring to - until recently I had not considered those two observations in light of one another, and I have certainly identified Jon with Dany's "blue flower" in the past. (Though I am unlikely to connect them in that way moving forward, I think.)

It's not that I don't want to see Jon in the symbolism, and refuse to consider it. It's that I viewed it that way before - and have reconsidered it.

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. - ACoK, Daenerys IV (HotU).

“A dead man in the prow of a ship, a blue rose, a banquet of blood… what does any of it mean, Khaleesi? A mummer’s dragon, you said. What is a mummer’s dragon, pray?” - ACoK, Daenerys V (Ser Jorah speaking to Dany).

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. - ACoK, Daenerys IV (HotU).

“A dead man in the prow of a ship, a blue rose, a banquet of blood… what does any of it mean, Khaleesi? A mummer’s dragon, you said. What is a mummer’s dragon, pray?” - ACoK, Daenerys V (Ser Jorah speaking to Dany).

I know. I've seen that before, too. But how does Jorah know what kind of flower it was? Clearly, he doesn't, because he didn't receive the vision himself. And in the vision, it is a flower, not a rose. Which really is not that big a deal for the sake of this discussion, as we've been talking about blue roses. But if you want to get technical... it's really not clear that the flower in the vision was a rose. As you've helpfully pointed out.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

GRRM writes stories within stories and while they may be parallel in some elements, they differ in others.

When it comes to Bael the bard, and R+L, I think I'd call the blue rose a clear parallel.

[J. Stargaryen]

I know. I've seen that before, too. But how does Jorah know what kind of flower it was? Clearly, he doesn't, because he didn't receive the vision himself. And in the vision, it is a flower, not a rose. Which really is not that big a deal for the sake of this discussion, as we've been talking about blue roses. But if you want to get technical... it's really not clear that the flower in the vision was a rose. As you've helpfully pointed out.

They probably discussed it off page. Notice that Jorah was repeating back to Dany her visions. She must have told him.

[Ygrain]

I know. I've seen that before, too. But how does Jorah know what kind of flower it was? Clearly, he doesn't, because he didn't receive the vision himself. And in the vision, it is a flower, not a rose. Which really is not that big a deal for the sake of this discussion, as we've been talking about blue roses. But if you want to get technical... it's really not clear that the flower in the vision was a rose. As you've helpfully pointed out.

It's rather obvious that he is summing up what Dany had told him. There is no way he could conclude by himself that a flower = rose - you can swap a specific term for a general one but not the other way round unless you have extra information. Furthermore, Dany sees a cloth dragon on poles but Jorah says "mummer's dragon" and asks her what it means - it is the words that Dany used when she was describing her experience to him.

When it comes to Bael the bard, and R+L, I think I'd call the blue rose a clear parallel.

The parallel is that a Stark daughter was kidnapped and in secret gave birth to a son, and in both stories the Stark daughter is associated with a blue rose. However, in Bael's story, the rose represents merely the daughter (it was left behind), whereas in R+L the rose was gifted to the Stark daughter and she kept it. Here you have a crucial difference in the role the rose plays.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

which has in time come to be today. Rejoice!

Which means quite some work!