R+L =J v. 115

[BearQueen87]

Well, I continue to explore options. But there are several male characters who might fit. Two that I find rather interesting are Roose Bolton and Tywin Lannister.

Well....I honestly believe that this is really reaching. I don't know why we're ignoring the simplest answer--unless it's because the argument is that GRRM wouldn't do "simple" to which I say that until you've figured out RLJ then Jon = The Blue Winter Rose isn't simple.

Roose probably isn't long for this world, and Tywin has passed. So why is Dany--who is still alive and not in Westeros and likely won't be until at least half way through Winds--be seeing them? Tywin and Roose aren't important to this story in the way Jon Snow--TPTPW, the first ever product of "ice and fire" AND Dany's nephew besides--is.

ETA: and this idea of "might fit" bothers me a bit. There are always ways to work characters into these symbols and metaphors. But, IMHO, there is only one character that fits naturally without having to do some mental working around

[Alia of the knife]

The.blue.flower.growing from a chink in the wall.is.a symbol for Lyanna.,i.e., JON.

And wasn't the speculation on the clutch of eggs left behind either in Winterfell, or the Wall during the visit of Jahaerys confirmed in the WB?

This is also a metaphor for Jon as well as literal if this dragon that Bran saw is on the loose will eventually need a rider.

It too would have been hatched amongst blood and fire.

[IceFire125]

Then if you don't think the wall is THE WALL and the flower isn't Jon..then what's going on with that scene?

Well, the word "chink" is suggestive to me. I'm inclined to wonder if the "wall of ice" represents a character whose human heart is otherwise well concealed and protected by his cold, hard exterior.

How about Dany seeing 3 walls, all of which associate with Jon's colors of journey.

Jon Snow turned away. The last light of the sun had begun to fade. He watched the cracks along the Wall (of ice) go from red to grey to black, from streaks of fire to rivers of black ice.

Three thick walls encircled Qarth, elaborately carved. The outer was red sandstone, thirty feet high and decorated with animals: snakes slithering, kites flying, fish swimming, intermingled with wolves of the red waste and striped zorses and monstrous elephants. The middle wall, forty feet high, was grey granite alive with scenes of war: the clash of sword and shield and spear, arrows in flight, heroes at battle and babes being butchered, pyres of the dead. The innermost wall was fifty feet of black marble, with carvings that made Dany blush until she told herself that she was being a fool. She was no maid; if she could look on the grey wall’s scenes of slaughter, why should she avert her eyes from the sight of men and women giving pleasure to one another?

Jon went from a Targaryen Red, to Stark grey, and to a brother of the NW.

Then GRRM added on that Dany blushed seeing the inner black wall, the carvings of which men and women giving pleasure to each other, meaning that Dany and Jon will cross path and the two will have an intimate relationship, maybe a loving relationship that will end up in betrayal in Dany's eyes, betrayed by love according to her vision.

So all of these considered, the blue rose is representative of Lyanna and Rhaegar. But even if one doubted that the blue roses have nothing to do with Jon at all, they have to look at such descriptions like the one above, regarding the description of the walls of Qarth.

And they have to go through all the list of the clues like black hearted Rhaegar (a royal blood), the same bastard heart as Jon (a royal true born)...

Once a man (Jon) had said the words his blood was black. Black as a bastard’s heart.

Confused, the king shook his head. “Rhaegar … Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet. They made up songs about it. Yet somehow he still won. He has Lyanna now, and I have her.”

Clues of true Targaryen blood and royalty...

...a hard white frost gripped Winterfell. The paths were treacherous with black ice... Under the snow lay grey ash and cinders...

“Kings are a rare sight in the north.”

Robert snorted. “More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!”

And keep him away from the red woman. She knows who he is. She sees things in her fires.”

Arya, he thought, hoping it was so. “Ashes and cinders.”

“Kings and dragons.”

“Why aren’t you down in the yard?” Arya asked him.

He gave her a half smile. “Bastards are not allowed to damage young princes,” he said. “Any bruises they take in the practice yard must come from trueborn swords.”

“Mance’s blood is no more royal than mine own. He has never worn a crown nor sat a throne”

Khal Drogo rose, spat out a dozen words in Dothraki, faster than Dany could understand, and pointed. “Khal Drogo says your place is not on the high bench,” Ser Jorah translated for her brother. “Khal Drogo says your place is there.”

Viserys glanced where the khal was pointing. At the back of the long hall, in a corner by the wall, deep in shadow so better men would not need to look on them, sat the lowest of the low; raw unblooded boys, old men with clouded eyes and stiff joints, the dim-witted and the maimed. Far from the meat, and farther from honor. “That is no place for a king,” her brother declared.

Ghost bared his teeth, but Jon put a hand on his head. “My lord,” he said, “will you tell me what’s happened here?”

Maester Aemon answered, from the far end of the hall. “Your name has been put forth as Lord Commander, Jon.”

A singer was playing the high harp and reciting a ballad, but down at this end of the hall his voice could scarcely be heard... It was the fourth hour of the welcoming feast laid for the king. Jon’s brothers and sisters had been seated with the royal children, beneath the raised platform where Lord and Lady Stark hosted the king and queen. In honor of the occasion, his lord father would doubtless permit each child a glass of wine, but no more than that. Down here on the benches, there was no one to stop Jon drinking as much as he had a thirst for.

...

but there were more curs than Jon could count at this end of the hall...

His uncle glanced over his shoulder at the raised table at the far end of the hall. “My brother does not seem very festive tonight.”

There are a lot more...

Again, the blue rose is just one aspect of R+L=J, there are other connections that point to Jon as Rhaegar's trueborn son. It is when all these factors are considered, that fans of R+L=J are confident of the theory.

[BearQueen87]

The.blue.flower.growing from a chink in the wall.is.a symbol for Lyanna.,i.e., JON.

And wasn't the speculation on the clutch of eggs left behind either in Winterfell, or the Wall during the visit of Jahaerys confirmed in the WB?

This is also a metaphor for Jon as well as literal if this dragon that Bran saw is on the loose will eventually need a rider.

It too would have been hatched amongst blood and fire.

Yeah, Yandel does this whole "THERE IS NOTHING TO SEE HERE....LOOK AWAY!!!!!" about that topic. In other words: yeah there was/is probably a clutch of eggs in WF

[Consigliere]

Yeah, Yandel does this whole "THERE IS NOTHING TO SEE HERE....LOOK AWAY!!!!!" about that topic. In other words: yeah there was/is probably a clutch of eggs in WF

Erm...only if Mushroom is to be believed in this instance. He was not even there so there is enough reason to doubt this claim.

[Alia of the knife]

Yeah, Yandel does this whole "THERE IS NOTHING TO SEE HERE....LOOK AWAY!!!!!" about that topic. In other words: yeah there was/is probably a clutch of eggs in WF

And with environment created by the hot springs that would be "oogy" enough to cultivate and eventually hatch them.

I bet Hodar knows something about them.

[Greymoon]

I said "metaphysical", not "metaphorical".

Okay, sorry I misread -- but still. There's no gigantic difference in the way imagery is used, imo, between the woman + dwarves, the cloth dragon and the cheering crowd, and "the blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice, filling the air with sweetness."

imo, sweetness appeals to feelings, painful and human emotions; affection or even love. "a heart carved of stone" or "made of ice" these are common enough idioms that the interpretation Snowfyre Chorus suggested is easily understood and not, imo, of the realm of metaphysics or philosophy.

"Walls" are used commonly enough to signify the protection, the distancing of the Self from others..."raising walls" to "guard your heart."

A chink is a small cleft, fissure or slit. or per the Merriam-webster online dictionary, it's also a "a weak spot that may leave one vulnerable."

A wall of ice with a chink in it, is a wall of ice that is at risk of splitting, fissuring because the chink represents a weakness in its structure... so, we have a "wall of ice" that may "split" because a "flower" is growing out of it; and that "flower" is spreading "sweetness" in the air...

A possible interpretation is thus: a "flower" is breaking through Jon's emotional defenses.... one can speculate and wonder if the "flower" represents a Stark girl, R+L; or Lyanna. The possibilities are not narrowed to R+L exclusively.

And, seeing the way Jon's arc went in aDwD, the importance Arya has played in it -- notably, concerning Jon's aborted desertion and vow breaking -- I'd say, we can absolutely not discount that the "flower" refers to one of his cousins/sisters.

[BearQueen87]

Erm...only if Mushroom is to be believed in this instance. He was not even there so there is enough reason to doubt this claim.

Oh was it Mushroom...? Too many Maesters! Ignore me, then. Blame the turkey.

[BearQueen87]

Okay, sorry I misread -- but still. There's no gigantic difference in the way imagery is used, imo, between the woman + dwarves, the cloth dragon and the cheering crowd, and "the blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice, filling the air with sweetness."

imo, sweetness appeals to feelings, painful and human emotions; affection or even love. "a heart carved of stone" or "made of ice" these are common enough idioms that the interpretation Snowfyre Chorus suggested is easily understood and not, imo, of the realm of metaphysics or philosophy.

I agree that it might be something deeper to flower in the wall along the lines of what Snowfyre is suggesting but Snowfyre also thinks it might be Roose Bolton or Tywin Lannister---which is far removed from a Stark Girl, Lyanna, or RLJ. I don't mind the extra metaphysical layers, but i think removing the flower from RLJ or Jon or even just Lyanna totally is rather...extreme

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I agree that it might be something deeper to flower in the wall along the lines of what Snowfyre is suggesting but Snowfyre also thinks it might be Roose Bolton or Tywin Lannister---which is far removed from a Stark Girl, Lyanna, or RLJ. I don't mind the extra metaphysical layers, but i think removing the flower from RLJ or Jon or even just Lyanna totally is rather...extreme

Oh, I thought you were asking about the wall of ice. I'd already stated that I think the most obvious character to be represented by the blue flower is Lyanna.

My main issue here is that I don't see any substantive basis for identifying the flower with Jon Snow. Lyanna, sure. But not Jon.

...men shouldnt smell sweet like flowers.

Whats wrong with flowers?

Nothing, for a bee. For bed I want one o these. Ygritte made to grab the front of his breeches.

[BearQueen87]

Oh, I thought you were asking about the wall of ice. I'd already stated that I think the most obvious character to be represented by the blue flower is Lyanna.

My main issue here is that I don't see any substantive basis for identifying the flower with Jon Snow. Lyanna, sure. But not Jon.

...men shouldnt smell sweet like flowers.

Whats wrong with flowers?

Nothing, for a bee. For bed I want one o these. Ygritte made to grab the front of his breeches.

And why is the "Lyanna flower" growing from a wall that representative of Roose or Twyin?

And why is it that we associate Lyanna with the blue roses??? Because Rhaegar gave them to her--with the point of his lance, in her lap. What did he later give to her with "the point of his lance" in her "lap?" Jon.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

And why is the "Lyanna flower" growing from a wall that representative of Roose or Twyin?

And why is it that we associate Lyanna with the blue roses??? Because Rhaegar gave them to her--with the point of his lance, in her lap. What did he later give to her with "the point of his lance" in her "lap?" Jon.

Again, I submit that - if your goal is to understand the meaning and symbolism of the blue winter rose - you have to look back farther into the history and background of House Stark than the relatively recent appearance of Rhaegar Targaryen.

If "R+L=J" is your clue to the meaning of the blue rose... then the metaphor of the blue rose does not serve as independent support for the idea that "R+L=J".

[BearQueen87]

Again, I submit that - if your goal is to understand the meaning and symbolism of the blue winter rose - you have to look back farther into the history and background of House Stark than the relatively recent appearance of Rhaegar Targaryen.

If "R+L=J" is your clue to the meaning of the blue rose... then the metaphor of the blue rose does not serve as independent support for the idea that "R+L=J".

And the Bael the Bard story is a parallel story that illustrates RLJ.

[sj4iy]

Wait, are we REALLY going to argue this? "Blue Roses" are Martin's obvious clues to R+L=J. There's really no other interpretation as given by the story.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Wait, are we REALLY going to argue this? "Blue Roses" are Martin's obvious clues to R+L=J. There's really no other interpretation as given by the story.

I don't understand this statement. Don't you think the Song of the Winter Rose provides a very clear interpretation of the blue rose metaphor and it's meaning? And wouldn't you agree that in that tale the blue winter rose is the Stark daughter, and not her child?

.

[sj4iy]

I don't understand this statement. Don't you think the Song of the Winter Rose provides a very clear interpretation of the blue rose metaphor and it's meaning? And wouldn't you agree that in that tale the blue winter rose is the Stark daughter, and not her child?

.

It's a clear parallel for R+L=J. And another clue pointing towards it, like all of the other blue rose hints.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

And the Bael the Bard story is a parallel story that illustrates RLJ.

No - there I disagree. How would it make sense that Bael the bard and his song of the winter rose could be an illustration of an event that wouldn't happen for at least another 200 years?

As stated above, I just fundamentally disagree that "R+L" is the appropriate starting point for reading and interpreting Martin's story.

[BearQueen87]

No - there I disagree. How would it make sense that Bael the bard and his song of the winter rose could be an illustration of an event that wouldn't happen for at least another 200 years?

As stated above, I just fundamentally disagree that "R+L" is the appropriate starting point for reading and interpreting Martin's story.

It's an illustration from Martin, not the characters in text. He's giving a story that is scary similar to RLJ in order to hint toward RLJ but also that RL loved one another.

[Ygrain]

Are you sure about that?

...seems to imply the champion's crown and Lyanna's laurel are separate things. I agree it's not conclusive that the champion's crown is a physical thing, but it's the best interpretation unless there's something clearer elsewhere.

Ah. I see what you mean now but at medieval tourneys, champions were not crowned, laurels of victory belong to the Classic times.

No - there I disagree. How would it make sense that Bael the bard and his song of the winter rose could be an illustration of an event that wouldn't happen for at least another 200 years?

As stated above, I just fundamentally disagree that "R+L" is the appropriate starting point for reading and interpreting Martin's story.

R+L is the basis of the current story - it led to the events that shaped Westeros up till now. Bael the Bard is a legend of people that are in no way related to the present and may not even have existed. Bael the Bard is there to illustrate R+L, not the other way round, and approaching this "chronologically" is wrong because R+L does not stem from Bael.

[The guy from the Vale]

It's an illustration from Martin, not the characters in text. He's giving a story that is scary similar to RLJ in order to hint toward RLJ but also that RL loved one another.

Agreed, but not just that. GRRM is also hinting here that R+L had a child - a child that grew up in Winterfell.

In fact, the juxtaposition of the story of the KotLT and Bael the Bard shortly after another in the books were what ultimately convinced me of R+L=J on my first reread. I knew the idea by then, was sceptical - but those two stories had to be authorial inserts that both hinted at something else, and it's that something else that connects them.