Michael Brown Shooting: The Aftermath of the Grand Jury Decision

[Fragile Bird]

Honestly that sounds like a complete waste of your time.

It's over.

The DOJ might push for a civil rights case but they have zero evidence for it.

The only way for a civil rights case to move forward is if multiple credible witness claim that Wilson used racial slurs during the entire confrontation.

If Wilson did we would have certainly have heard of it.

He didn't.

Again it's over.

Continue discussing if you want but I'm done and am moving on.

You are forgetting the DoJ's investigation into the way the Ferguson police force is run. Wilson, I'm sure, has not, he worked on a police force previously that was investigated by the DoJ and that force was swept clean and replaced, as mentioned on page one of this thread.

I think there's an expectation the same will happen in Ferguson. The community is almost 75% black, yet the force of 52 only has 3 black officers. That alone might be enough for the DoJ to find the community's civil rights have been violated. Ferguson could have at least hired 15 or 20 black police officers and perhaps avoided that kind of finding. By next year you might see a police force with 40 black officers and 12 white officers, under the control of a DoJ appointed monitor.

[Greywolf2375]

By the time he was last shot, he had been shot in the chest and the second to last shot was in the face, through the eye out the jaw, reentry to the collar bone area. You really think he was charging after that?

And your first link doesn't have anything to do with your post afai can tell, the second one doesn't say where the person was shot who drove off.

The first one states a person shot multiple times wasn't considered life threatening; the 2nd shows that a person shot multiple times - whereever they were shot - still had the capability to drive a car.

So the idea that a person, shot multiple times, might be able to still move or charge is not implausible.

Do I think he was charging? I don't know. Do I think he could have been moving as and perceived as charging? Absolutely.

[TrueMetis]

The first one states a person shot multiple times wasn't considered life threatening; the 2nd shows that a person shot multiple times - whereever they were shot - still had the capability to drive a car.

So the idea that a person, shot multiple times, might be able to still move or charge is not implausible.

Do I think he was charging? I don't know. Do I think he could have been moving as and perceived as charging? Absolutely.

Rather depends on where you're shot doesn't it?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I think the DoJ investegation into the Fergeson department has much more potential of bearing fruit than an investigation of Wilson.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

I think the DoJ investegation into the Fergeson department has much more potential of bearing fruit than an investigation of Wilson.

One would hope.

[DanteGabriel]

The problem is that it´s not usual for Grand Jury to get all the evidence. Prosecutor will get the indictment if he wants to get one. Handling the case differently is a clear sign of bias.

Supreme Court Justice Scalia thinks that presenting exculpatory evidence and allowing the accused to testify for a grand jury is pretty wack:

It is the grand jury’s function not ‘to enquire … upon what foundation [the charge may be] denied,’ or otherwise to try the suspect’s defenses, but only to examine ‘upon what foundation [the charge] is made’ by the prosecutor. Respublica v. Shaffer, 1 Dall. 236 (O. T. Phila. 1788); see also F. Wharton, Criminal Pleading and Practice § 360, pp. 248-249 (8th ed. 1880). As a consequence, neither in this country nor in England has the suspect under investigation by the grand jury ever been thought to have a right to testify or to have exculpatory evidence presented.

http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/justice-scalia-explains-why-ferguson-grand-jury-was-completely-wrong

[ThinkerX]

I would like to point out something that I assume was discussed at the very start of these threads, that McCulloch could have simply charged Wilson and gone to trial. I doubt any jury would have convicted Wilson because there were certainly enough contradictory witnesses that the criminal standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt" would not have been met. Evidence could have been openly heard and there would have been cross examination of those witnesses.

Pretty much my take. At trial, with an unbiased jury, Wilson would have walked.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Pretty much my take. At trial, with an unbiased jury, Wilson would have walked.

Looks like we'll never know.

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

This whole Ferguson thing kind of reflects poorly on the"hands up don't shoot" crowd.

What was officer Wilson supposed to do really? He told a kid to get out of the middle of the street.The grand jury would have us believe the kid started swearing at him and punched him inside the window of the car. Later he tries to grab his gun. What is Wilson supposed to do? Just let it happen?

Wilson did the right thing in trying to arrest Brown. He should not have let someone like that get away. When Brown charged him, all 6 feet 300 pounds, Wilson felt justifiably frightened.

I just am tired of the false narrative that he was just an utter innocent who was gunned down in cold blood by an evil cop.

Why is not one of the Al Sharptons or Jesse Jacksons asking for calm, asking for all the evidence to be examined, and above all.. NOT TO RUSH TO JUDGEMENT?

So many in the black community don't seem to care about right or wrong, or what the reality of this may or may not have been. All they see is a black teen killed by a white cop, and come hell or high water, they want the white cop thrown in jail no matter what?

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

So many in the black community don't seem to care about right or wrong, or what the reality of this may or may not have been. All they see is a black teen killed by a white cop, and come hell or high water, they want the white cop thrown in jail no matter what?

I think they'd like to see him tried, at the very least. Don't think that's an unreasonable request.

[TerraPrime]

This whole Ferguson thing kind of reflects poorly on the"hands up don't shoot" crowd.

I will be sure to relay that info to them and report back to you just how disappointed they are to know that you're not impressed.

What was officer Wilson supposed to do really?

Well, for start, how's about "not kill an unarmed teen who is 35 feet away from you"? That sounds reasonable to you?

The grand jury would have us believe the kid started swearing at him and punched him inside the window of the car. Later he tries to grab his gun.

Actually that's not what a refusal to indict means. This was not a trial in front of a jury.

What is Wilson supposed to do? Just let it happen?

Do you seriously believe that Wilson's only two options were "shoot to kill" and "do nothing"?

When Brown charged him, all 6 feet 300 pounds, Wilson felt justifiably frightened.

That's not the height and weight of Brown. Both Brown and Wilson are 6 feet 4. Brown weighed 286 pounds and Wilson 210. Wilson is a trained police officer who completed officer training when Brown was still in grade school, where part of the training was how to subdue suspects in close quarters. If we accept that police officers who are 70 pounds lighter in weight than the suspect and who are probably in better physical shape can be fearful enough of an unarmed, untrained, slightly chubby teen taking a few steps towards him that killing him with multiple gunshots is justified, then we are going to see a lot more dead teens.

I would also point out that you should review your opinion in light of how wrong you are about the height and weight of Michael Brown.

I just am tired of the false narrative that he was just an utter innocent who was gunned down in cold blood by an evil cop.

Speaking of false narratives... People are not saying Brown had not done anything wrong at all. He shouldn't have gotten into a physical altercation with a cop. But whether his error justified Wilson's actions is another matter. Punching a cop, and then walking away, is not a level of crime that merits death sentence.

I also don't know that many people saying that Wilson is "evil." I think he's incompetent on many levels as an officer and I think his incompetence led him to make bad decisions when confronting Brown. But that's not evil.

Why is not one of the Al Sharptons or Jesse Jacksons asking for calm, asking for all the evidence to be examined, and above all.. NOT TO RUSH TO JUDGEMENT?

You do realize that the lack of indictment means precisely that we will not have a chance to examine ALL the evidence and get a verdict after a panel of citizens hear both sides of the story, right? That the people looking forward to a trial are indeed wanting a chance to have all the evidence scrutinized so we can reach proper conclusions?

So many in the black community don't seem to care about right or wrong, or what the reality of this may or may not have been. All they see is a black teen killed by a white cop, and come hell or high water, they want the white cop thrown in jail no matter what?

If we are in the game of rendering opinions about entire segments of society, I will offer that so many white folks are eager to cast Brown as a "thug" and a "criminal" while ignoring the systemic racism of Ferguson PD (which is documented by the State of Missouri, by the way). They are jumping at the chance to accept Wilson's account, despite his failure to file the proper incident reports and despite having only 1 witness collaborating on Brown taking a step towards Wilson. They are also happy to not address the unusual ways in which the prosecutor sought indictment as well as the problematic background and ties of the prosecutor to Wilson. I don't know what is the cause here to make some people ignore all these concerns, but it sure isn't objectivity at work.

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

I am not that off base about Brown's height and weight. 286 pounds and 6 foot 4, isn't totally off base the way say, 400 pounds and 8 feet would be.

Brown was a criminal, that isn't disupted. He was robbing a store of cigars. That is a crime, ergo criminal. That isn't to say he deserved to die, for that particular reason though.

Stephanopolous and Wilson say Wilson never used his gun before. Do you believe Brown knelt and begged for his life "putting his hands up" before being shot 13 times?

The thing is, all I am going off is what I heard in the grand jury report. I don't have all the facts before me. But from what I have heard Brown doesn't sound like he was shot for the color of his skin.

What should Wilson have done? He claims he was far stronger than him. 286 pounds is not "slightly" chubby btw. Slightly chubby by standards of Jabba the hutt maybe, but to normal society it is obese. Should he have let Brown get away? After he experienced ( unless he's a liar) he experienced a really big kid punch him and try to steal his gun. Its reasonable to assume such a person would be a threat to others. I guess I just find it hard to believe that Wilson would have shot him 13 times, unless he was being charged at and thought Brown was going to beat him to death.

Correct me if Im wrong, but just looking at what Al Sharpton and their ilk are saying and doing, even if it turned out that Brown wanted to kidnap Wilson and skin him to make a "Darren Wilson suit" they would still be calling for Wilson's blood.

Most police departments are racist, unfortunately.

[karaddin]

I am not that off base about Brown's height and weight. 286 pounds and 6 foot 4, isn't totally off base the way say, 400 pounds and 8 feet would be.

Brown was a criminal, that isn't disupted. He was robbing a store of cigars. That is a crime, ergo criminal. That isn't to say he deserved to die, for that particular reason though.

Stephanopolous and Wilson say Wilson never used his gun before. Do you believe Brown knelt and begged for his life "putting his hands up" before being shot 13 times?

The thing is, all I am going off is what I heard in the grand jury report. I don't have all the facts before me. But from what I have heard Brown doesn't sound like he was shot for the color of his skin.

What should Wilson have done? He claims he was far stronger than him. 286 pounds is not "slightly" chubby btw. Slightly chubby by standards of Jabba the hutt maybe, but to normal society it is obese. Should he have let Brown get away? After he experienced ( unless he's a liar) he experienced a really big kid punch him and try to steal his gun. Its reasonable to assume such a person would be a threat to others. I guess I just find it hard to believe that Wilson would have shot him 13 times, unless he was being charged at and thought Brown was going to beat him to death.

Correct me if Im wrong, but just looking at what Al Sharpton and their ilk are saying and doing, even if it turned out that Brown wanted to kidnap Wilson and skin him to make a "Darren Wilson suit" they would still be calling for Wilson's blood.

Most police departments are racist, unfortunately.

There is just so much rubbish in that post its ridiculous. The derail of trying to focus on "Al Sharpton and their ilk" rather than admitting that these protests having been running, almost entirely peacefully, since the day Brown was killled in an upsurge from that very community. The primary voices on social media are Ferguson locals, not any larger voices from out of town. BTW are you concerned that Sharpton doesn't identify as a man, or do you use singular "their" to other him?

The "Jabba the hut" crack is extremely insensitive at best. If Brown was obese as you claim, then surely that works against Wilsons claim to not be able to do anything else - a 300lb obese person is a lot less strong than 300lb of muscle.

I said in the past iteration of this thread that I can't prove Wilson is a racist, but that I believe he is and I'm going to state my position even more clearly. From his testimony and other pieces of evidence I think Wilson is sufficiently racist that he consciously views black people as more suspicious. I do not think he consciously decided to execute a black kid simply for being black, I accept there was an altercation in the SUV and this led to the situation where they were separated by some distance and Wilson ended up shooting Brown. I do not think it was conscious racism that led to him deciding to pull that trigger, rather I think it is a subconscious racial bias that led to him think Brown was far more of a threat than he actually was, to the point that he was sincerely scared and decided to shoot. I think this same racial bias about black men being big and scary can be witnessed in this thread, and through an awful lot of media narratives, as described in this Vox piece. Unlike my first allegation of conscious racism, I don't think this subconscious racism can be reasonably disputed (although I'm sure it will be disputed or dismissed) as proof of it is littered through his testimony in the way he talks about Brown. Finally there is a smorgasboard of institutional racism going on in the system that led to this happening, and the process of ensuring Wilson was protected.

As for Brown being a criminal? Prior to this day I haven't seen any proof that he had committed any crime before that. We can probably assume possession of marijuana though, hardly big time. Then we have petty shop lifting which I would say 90% of the kids I went to school with were committing at one point or another and I doubt that's hugely out of proportion with anywhere else. Then assault of an officer, which absolutely is a crime and warrants being arrested and charged. But the way criminal gets thrown around as if that makes someone less human or of less worth. How the fuck in a country that sends so many people to prison can you think this? Criminals are just people who have made mistakes or have done something that shouldn't even be illegal in the first place. A criminal has just as much right to due process under the law and respect as a human being as anyone else.

Finally what was Wilson supposed to do? He could have used the Pepper spray he was carrying to subdue Brown if he closed the distance again. He could have gotten disengaged further, monitoring Brown and awaiting backup. He could have used the hand to hand techniques he should have been taught to subdue Brown (once again if he closed the distance) without needing a weapon, or utilised his baton to accomplish similar - perhaps with broken bones on Brown's part but not death. He is big enough that with what should be routine training he should not have had any issues dealing with Brown in an open fight where he sees it coming - its not like the initial scuffle in the car actually left him injured (mild bruising to the jaw does not seem substantial enough to call an injury).

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

That's not the height and weight of Brown. Both Brown and Wilson are 6 feet 4. Brown weighed 286 pounds and Wilson 210. Wilson is a trained police officer who completed officer training when Brown was still in grade school, where part of the training was how to subdue suspects in close quarters. If we accept that police officers who are 70 pounds lighter in weight than the suspect and who are probably in better physical shape can be fearful enough of an unarmed, untrained, slightly chubby teen taking a few steps towards him that killing him with multiple gunshots is justified, then we are going to see a lot more dead teens.

I think you're significantly underestimating the advantage of outweighing a person by 76 pounds in a physical altercation. That's a huge physical advantage. Also, to call Brown "slightly chubby" is a bit disingenuous when his BMI would put him well into the obese category.

Speaking of false narratives... People are not saying Brown had not done anything wrong at all. He shouldn't have gotten into a physical altercation with a cop. But whether his error justified Wilson's actions is another matter. Punching a cop, and then walking away, is not a level of crime that merits death sentence.

There's a real problem with referring to a shooting like this as a "death sentence" or even a "sentence" and pretending that what we're discussing is what kind if punishment a particular crime "merits." It's easy to say that some kind of behavior doesn't warrant a "death sentence." I agree. I don't think anything warrants the "death sentence" because I don't believe that the criminal justice system should impose the death penalty on people convicted of any crime. But that's not what we're talking about. We're not talking about a criminal sentence. We're talking about self-defense, and the extent to which people can use lethal force to defend themselves from serious physical harm or death. If you attack someone and they reasonably fear serious bodily harm or death, I think they should be allowed to stop you using lethal force. I don't think that you "merit" a "death sentence" but we're not talking about the 'moral desert' of attacking someone; the justification for being able to use lethal force in self-defense is not that the other person "deserves" death, but that you have a right to defend yourself.

You do realize that the lack of indictment means precisely that we will not have a chance to examine ALL the evidence and get a verdict after a panel of citizens hear both sides of the story, right? That the people looking forward to a trial are indeed wanting a chance to have all the evidence scrutinized so we can reach proper conclusions?

You shouldn't get to run someone through the ringer of the criminal justice system just because people want every piece of evidence vetted. There's a threshold that needs to be met. You have to have a chance of being able to get a conviction beyond a reasonable doubt. If you can't even hit "probable cause that a crime was committed" then by definition you can't reach conviction beyond a reasonable doubt. A prosecutor shouldn't bring a case they can't prove, and now that all the evidence is out there, it's pretty clear they couldn't prove this one. There's mountains of reasonable doubt all over it.

If we are in the game of rendering opinions about entire segments of society, I will offer that so many white folks are eager to cast Brown as a "thug" and a "criminal" while ignoring the systemic racism of Ferguson PD (which is documented by the State of Missouri, by the way). They are jumping at the chance to accept Wilson's account, despite his failure to file the proper incident reports and despite having only 1 witness collaborating on Brown taking a step towards Wilson. They are also happy to not address the unusual ways in which the prosecutor sought indictment as well as the problematic background and ties of the prosecutor to Wilson. I don't know what is the cause here to make some people ignore all these concerns, but it sure isn't objectivity at work.

It is simply not the case that only 1 witness corroborated Brown advancing towards Wilson. NPR put together a spreadsheet of how the eyewitnesses to the shooting reported on certain aspects of the story. Five witnesses corroborated Wilson's story that Brown advanced on him. Only four witnesses testified specifically that Brown did not advance on Wilson and every single one of those witnesses also testified to something that the physical evidence tended to contradict - either that Brown was shot at while running away or that he was shot while on his knees (the "execution style" narrative) or that Brown had his "hands up" when he was fired at. Some of them actually testified to several of these other things that the physical evidence tended to contradict. It's not hard to imagine how these witnesses might not have been viewed as particularly credible by the grand jury in light of this.

[wolverine]

Speaking of false narratives... People are not saying Brown had not done anything wrong at all. He shouldn't have gotten into a physical altercation with a cop. But whether his error justified Wilson's actions is another matter. Punching a cop, and then walking away, is not a level of crime that merits death sentence.

I keep seeing him called a "kid" and a "gentle giant." I do not know his whole story, but he was 18 and had just graduated from the ALC. Around here at least, very few "gentle giants" end up going to the ALC. The video of him muscling the clerk at the store he robbed does not make him look very gentle either.

I would agree with pretty much everything else you have said. Wilson seems to be fairly incompetent. I have no idea how I would have responded in his shoes...(most likely ran and hid)

[karaddin]

I think you're significantly underestimating the advantage of outweighing a person by 76 pounds in a physical altercation. That's a huge physical advantage. Also, to call Brown "slightly chubby" is a bit disingenuous when his BMI would put him well into the obese category.

We're talking about self-defense, and the extent to which people can use lethal force to defend themselves from serious physical harm or death. If you attack someone and they reasonably fear serious bodily harm or death, I think they should be allowed to stop you using lethal force. I don't think that you "merit" a "death sentence" but we're not talking about the 'moral desert' of attacking someone; the justification for being able to use lethal force in self-defense is not that the other person "deserves" death, but that you have a right to defend yourself.

It is simply not the case that only 1 witness corroborated Brown advancing towards Wilson. NPR put together a spreadsheet of how the eyewitnesses to the shooting reported on certain aspects of the story. Five witnesses corroborated Wilson's story that Brown advanced on him. Only four witnesses testified specifically that Brown did not advance on Wilson and every single one of those witnesses also testified to something that the physical evidence tended to contradict - either that Brown was shot at while running away or that he was shot while on his knees (the "execution style" narrative) or that Brown had his "hands up" when he was fired at. Some of them actually testified to several of these other things that the physical evidence tended to contradict. It's not hard to imagine how these witnesses might not have been viewed as particularly credible by the grand jury in light of this.

First bit - You don't think the police should have a higher standard of judgement for whether they actually in need of using lethal force? I know I disagree with you on the acceptable threshold for use of deadly force anyway, but the police is a separate question. I have a real issue with police killing people when its not 100% absolutely necessary, and I just don't see any way that this met this.

Bolded - why do you dismiss accounts on the basis of "hands up", 16 witnesses from your link say he did and only 2 say he didn't. I don't see how the physical evidence contradicts it. It also doesn't contradict that he was shot at while running, just that he was hit by said shots. Him not moving towards Wilson at all IS contradicted by the physical evidence, but not those two which seem perfectly credible still. Actually for that matter the chart doesn't even have an option for just "moving towards", it only has "charging towards" - someone could say no to charging towards and still be saying he was moving towards Wilson.

[wolverine]

First bit - You don't think the police should have a higher standard of judgement for whether they actually in need of using lethal force? I know I disagree with you on the acceptable threshold for use of deadly force anyway, but the police is a separate question. I have a real issue with police killing people when its not 100% absolutely necessary, and I just don't see any way that this met this.

What would make it necessary? If he did punch Wilson, did try to take and turn his weapon on him, and then did charge him? Those are all ifs (mainly whether or not he charged him), but IF all three are true, shooting may be justified.

[karaddin]

What would make it necessary? If he did punch Wilson, did try to take and turn his weapon on him, and then did charge him? Those are all ifs (mainly whether or not he charged him), but IF all three are true, shooting may be justified.

If he did grab for the gun, he had failed to get it and was no longer in a position to do so. To be clear, the position I'm advocating for would almost certainly result in more police dying and that would be bad, but my opinion is that this would be more than offset by the number of people who would not be unnecessarily killed by police.

[Claire of House Thorpe]

My judgment: BOTH Wilson and Brown were in the wrong, as Wilson shouldn't have shot Brown and Brown should have just simply done what he was told. It gets tiring having to hear about racism when stuff like this happens. I say that mayhaps Wilson needs some training and/or psychological help for his issues.

And Sharpton really needs to shut up because who cares about what he has to say, anyway?

[Tyrion Lannister]

As for the alleged looting and burning, we all know by now that most of it is caused by outsiders or white anarchists but even if it wasn't and it's a direct action from Black rioters, I hope they burn their way down to washington.

Burn the whole god forsaken place down and rebuild this piece of shit of a country from the ground up.

I find this comment absolutely fucking disgusting, especially considering two members of the Black Panthers were arrested for allegedly planning to blow up the Arch, one of the big tourist destinations in St. Louis. I'm not commenting on the Michael Brown shooting one way or the other, but if you think anarchy and terrorism is the answer I could not disagree any more vehemently.