A+J=T v. 2

[sj4iy]

Finally, we get to the core of your objection. We really don't know what Tywin would have done. Prior to finding out about Shae, I think most readers would have thought it unlikely Tywin would have such a whore--incompatible with his personality (but it wasn't). Tywin could not be sure, and the belief against kinslaying is strong. I think it quite plausible that Tywin would not risk killing his own son even if Tywin suspected Tyrion was not really his son.

No, it's not the 'core' of my objection. My objection solely centers around the fact that there's not enough evidence to support the idea that Tyrion is Aerys' son. Any personal feelings I have towards the story implications are purely secondary.

And I don't think it is plausible whatsoever that Tywin wouldn't have killed Tyrion if he suspected that he was Aerys' bastard. Tywin hated Aerys. Tywin hated Tyrion for killing Joanna in childbirth. He hated Tyrion because he was an embarrassment to his family and to himself.

The personality issue proves nothing. GRRM very well could be demonstrating that personality is often a "nurture" and not a "nature" trait. Tyrion tried to get his father's approval and wanted to be like his father. That alone is enough to explain why it is emphasized that they are alike. And it is a red herring for what? It is never explicitly stated, unlike most red herrings. And what is the "true solution" that is being distracted from by this red herring?

I disagree entirely. There's no reason to believe that Tyrion's personality has anything at all to do with how he was raised. Jaime and Cersei were raised in the same environment, and neither of them are intelligent and cunning, though Cersei believes herself to be.

[Chaircat Meow]

I don't see why Tyrion not being Tywin's son, in biological terms, means the relationship between Tyrion and Tywin is ruined or made less meaningful. Could someone explain why that would be the case?

[Chaircat Meow]

And I don't think it is plausible whatsoever that Tywin wouldn't have killed Tyrion if he suspected that he was Aerys' bastard. Tywin hated Aerys. Tywin hated Tyrion for killing Joanna in childbirth. He hated Tyrion because he was an embarrassment to his family and to himself.

Because he might have killed his own son!

I disagree entirely. There's no reason to believe that Tyrion's personality has anything at all to do with how he was raised. Jaime and Cersei were raised in the same environment, and neither of them are intelligent and cunning, though Cersei believes herself to be.

Tywin was away from the Rock most of the time while Jaime and Cersei were growing up. Then they left when he'd returned. Very different for Tyrion.

[sj4iy]

Because he might have killed his own son!

His son was a dwarf, and considered an abomination in medieval times. No one would have accused him of being a kinslayer.

Tywin was away from the Rock most of the time while Jaime and Cersei were growing up. Then they left when he'd returned. Very different for Tyrion.

They were only 6/7 years old when Tyrion was born. That's not 'most of their lives'.

[Chaircat Meow]

His son was a dwarf, and considered an abomination in medieval times. No one would have accused him of being a kinslayer.

I expect they would have done. And Tywin isn't going to want to kill someone who might be his son.

They were only 6/7 years old when Tyrion was born. That's not 'most of their lives'.

But he was away in KL for most of the year. When he returned to CR on a more permanent basis it was only a year or so until the rebellion, and then the year after Cersei was living in KL with Jaime. Tyrion was hanging around Tywin full time since he was about 10-11.

[sj4iy]

I expect they would have done. And Tywin isn't going to want to kill someone who might be his son.

There are ways of killing a baby and making it look natural. And no one would have questioned it since Tyrion was a monstrosity and people wouldn't expect him to live, anyway. It's really not that hard and there was nothing stopping Tywin from doing it except for the fact that he thought Tyrion was his son. Take that away, and there's nothing stopping it.

But he was away in KL for most of the year. When he returned to CR on a more permanent basis it was only a year or so until the rebellion, and then the year after Cersei was living in KL with Jaime. Tyrion was hanging around Tywin full time since he was about 10-11.

He doesn't have to live there "full time" for the kids to want to be like him. He was no different that most fathers of that age, who were never home with their children. I seriously doubt that he spent more time with Tyrion than he did his other children even when he WAS home. That's what nannies are for. I would bet he spent more time with Jaime than the other two because Jaime was to be his heir. Yet Jaime wasn't like his father. Tyrion was.

Anyway, this is all anecdotal evidence and means nothing in the long run.

[Chaircat Meow]

There are ways of killing a baby and making it look natural. And no one would have questioned it since Tyrion was a monstrosity and people wouldn't expect him to live, anyway. It's really not that hard and there was nothing stopping Tywin from doing it except for the fact that he thought Tyrion was his son. Take that away, and there's nothing stopping it.

If you're convinced Tywin would kill Tyrion if he thought he might not be his son then there's something of an insuperable objection for you to any A+J=T theory that posits Tywin suspected Tyrion was not his.

But I don't know why you are so convinced Tywin would kill Tyrion on the grounds he might not be his. If Tyrion was Tywin's son Tywin would be a kinslayer, something even someone who does not believe in A+J=T has to admit Tywin cared about enough to keep Tyrion alive despite disliking him.

He doesn't have to live there "full time" for the kids to want to be like him. He was no different that most fathers of that age, who were never home with their children. I seriously doubt that he spent more time with Tyrion than he did his other children even when he WAS home. That's what nannies are for. I would bet he spent more time with Jaime than the other two because Jaime was to be his heir. Yet Jaime wasn't like his father. Tyrion was.

Anyway, this is all anecdotal evidence and means nothing in the long run.

I'm not saying Jaime and Cersei got treated abnormally. Rather, I was pointing out that Tyrion was living in the same castle as his father for far longer than those two were. So that's a different environment.

[Weirdo]

I don't see why Tyrion not being Tywin's son, in biological terms, means the relationship between Tyrion and Tywin is ruined or made less meaningful. Could someone explain why that would be the case?

Not to my satisfaction. If anything it makes their relationship much more interesting. It raises questions like the ones we are discussing now, like what did Tywin know, and what were his wife's feelings and wishes. Add to that what it means for Tyrion - he's been thinking that he's the heir to Casterly Rock! To me it's clearly a very interesting situation, if true.

[Weirdo]

Didn't Tywin mention that dwarves are normally left out to die but Joanna begged him not to before dying? I don't know why that sticks in my mind.

Tywin is clearly a bit blind when it comes to family. He did not notice Jaime and Cerse relationship.

This is a key point. If I wasn't at work I'd track that down! Isn't it something he says to Tyrion?

[Lord Varys]

The assumption that Tyrion, Jon, or any of the hidden children really inherited genetically from their parents is really bogus.

And Tyrion and Tywin don't have the same character (or looks). Young Tywin should have been the image of Jaime, perhaps a little more stern/not so handsome, whereas Tyrion is a dwarf.

Tyrion has a lot of different issues Tywin has not, and Tywin has a lot of issues Tyrion does not have. Tyrion is an intelligent loner, he has humor, understands (and values) irony (and cynicism).

Tywin is nothing of all that. Tyrion is a schemer with the talent to twist and turn and fool people, whereas Tywin tends to take a more direct and (ruthless) 'manly approach'.

In my opinion, they don't share many qualities.

[Mithras]

Tyrion is Gerion's son, that is why.

[Wouter]

Liking dragons is a general characteristic of ALL kids. Especially in Westeros. They are the superheroes of Westeros, and we see that kids like Tyrion, Robb, Jon, Bran, etc all grow up wanting to be a Targaryen with a dragon. There's no discrimination there. It's very generalized and has nothing at all to do with their blood.

I don't think that had Tywin had ANY DOUBTS WHATSOEVER about Tyrion that he would have left him alive. If there were even one sliver of a doubt, Tyrion would have been killed. The only reason Tywin let him live was because he truly believes him to be a Lannister.

No one can ever convince me that Tywin, if he had even a hint of a doubt that Tyrion was Aerys, would have let Tyrion live and treated him like his son. That's not the kind of man Tywin is.

Tywin litterally said (paraphrased): "I cannot prove that you are not mine, so the laws of men give you the right to wear my colours, but you will never inherit Casterly Rock".

This is a point that tends to get 100% ignored by most of the opponents of this theory. Tywin clearly expressed doubt in Tyrion's parentage (if he was 100% certain Tyrion was his son he has no need to prove anything) and acted on it by refusing Casterly Rock.

Regarding liking dragons: most kids like dragons, but in Tyrion's case it was rather extreme. Not many asked their uncles for one, and less have read up on dragons the way Tyrion did (not even Jon and Robb, who had access to books).

[Wouter]

9. Well, when I read this for the first time, I didn't see anything ambiguous in it. And still don't see, as Tyrion is a small man, not a dragon according to Moqorro.

Moqorro never stated Tyrion was not among the dragons. He did not give a litteral visual description of his vision, and moreover, many of those called "dragons" in his vision were obviously not Rhaegal, Viserion or Drogon, but rather Dany, (f)Aegon, Aemon, etc.

All of them are (wo)men (great or small, old or yound, true or false, etc) but all can be and are called dragons. Why could Moqorro not do the same for Tyrion?

This vision is ambiguous. Of course it is, considering GRRM is either doing his utmost best to set up a Red Herring or to prepare the ground for the reveal, if the theory is correct. Or a third way, prepare the ground for Tyrion to be declared a Targaryen without necessarily being one (similar to Nettles, where the truth is still in doubt).

[Dofs]

Moqorro never stated Tyrion was not among the dragons. He did not give a litteral visual description of his vision, and moreover, many of those called "dragons" in his vision were obviously not Rhaegal, Viserion or Drogon, but rather Dany, (f)Aegon, Aemon, etc.

All of them are (wo)men (great or small, old or yound, true or false, etc) but all can be and are called dragons. Why could Moqorro not do the same for Tyrion?

This vision is ambiguous. Of course it is, considering GRRM is either doing his utmost best to set up a Red Herring or to prepare the ground for the reveal, if the theory is correct. Or a third way, prepare the ground for Tyrion to be declared a Targaryen without necessarily being one (similar to Nettles, where the truth is still in doubt).

Yes, he didn't speak only about actual dragons, that is, like, obvious. Still, the only way it can be ambiguous is if Tyrion is the non mentioned 7th dragon. He is not among the 6 that Moqorro listed because after he listed them, he added "and you", when he started speaking about Tyrion.

[Wouter]

Yes, he didn't speak only about actual dragons, that is, like, obvious. Still, the only way it can be ambiguous is if Tyrion is the non mentioned 7th dragon. He is not among the 6 that Moqorro listed because after he listed them, he added "and you", when he started speaking about Tyrion.

Moqorro never stated there were only 6 dragons. His "young and old, true and false, bright and dark" to me seemed merely a manner of speech to say he was seeing a lot of dragons. Considering we can include Dany, Jon, (f)Aegon, Aemon, Bloodraven, Varys and/or Illyrio (maybe, depending on a link to Blackfyre's), Rhaegal, Viserion and Drogon, plus assorted Velaryons and various descendants of people like the Bright Prince, there are a lot of candidates.

[Hangover of the Morning]

Tywin litterally said (paraphrased): "I cannot prove that you are not mine, so the laws of men give you the right to wear my colours, but you will never inherit Casterly Rock".

This is a point that tends to get 100% ignored by most of the opponents of this theory. Tywin clearly expressed doubt in Tyrion's parentage (if he was 100% certain Tyrion was his son he has no need to prove anything) and acted on it by refusing Casterly Rock.

I would argue that it proves exactly the opposite, i.e. the fact that Tywin is saying that he is certain that Tyrion is his or at least that he has no reason to believe that he is not.

[sj4iy]

I would argue that it proves exactly the opposite, i.e. the fact that Tywin is saying that he is certain that Tyrion is his or at least that he has no reason to believe that he is not.

Agreed.

[Wouter]

I would argue that it proves exactly the opposite, i.e. the fact that Tywin is saying that he is certain that Tyrion is his or at least that he has no reason to believe that he is not.

Strongly disagree. Tywin does not say that he is certain that Tyrion is his nor that he has no reason to believe that he is not.

If you believe that, in spite of what Tywin actually said in the books, then it is a theory that needs to be held to the same standard as the A+J=T theory as far as proof is concerned. Where is your proof that Tywin is certain that Tyrion is his?

I find this to be a most remarkable interpretation of Tywin's words.

Who would take the following statement as confirmation that there is no doubt that the person speaking is indeed his biological father:

"I cannot lawfully prove you are not mine, but you sure won't get a penny out of my inheritance, even though you're lawfully my heir".

I would not see this as an encouraging statement...

[Hangover of the Morning]

Strongly disagree. Tywin does not say that he is certain that Tyrion is his nor that he has no reason to believe that he is not.

If you believe that, in spite of what Tywin actually said in the books, then it is a theory that needs to be held to the same standard as the A+J=T theory as far as proof is concerned. Where is your proof that Tywin is certain that Tyrion is his?

I find this to be a most remarkable interpretation of Tywin's words.

Who would take the following statement as confirmation that there is no doubt that the person speaking is indeed his biological father:

"I cannot lawfully prove you are not mine, but you sure won't get a penny out of my inheritance, even though you're lawfully my heir".

I would not see this as an encouraging statement...

There's no DNA testing in Westeros. Tywin saying I cannot prove that you are not mine = I have no reason to believe that you are not mine. How can anyone interpret is as Tywin doubting Tyrion's parentage is beyond me.

[Dofs]

Moqorro never stated there were only 6 dragons. His "young and old, true and false, bright and dark" to me seemed merely a manner of speech to say he was seeing a lot of dragons. Considering we can include Dany, Jon, (f)Aegon, Aemon, Bloodraven, Varys and/or Illyrio (maybe, depending on a link to Blackfyre's), Rhaegal, Viserion and Drogon, plus assorted Velaryons and various descendants of people like the Bright Prince, there are a lot of candidates.

Well, yeah, you could say that there are more than 6 dragons. Still, with the way Moqorro spoke, Tyrion doesn't fit any of those descriptions. Dragon true, false, bright, dark, old, young and Tyrion in the midst of all.