R+L=J v.116

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Reference guide

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targaryen fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty. For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious. Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the A Song of Ice and Fire readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 18 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Since this theory has been refined so well, will Martin change the outcome of the story to surprise his fans?
No, he said he won't change the outcome of the story only because some people have put together all the clues and solved the puzzle.

Previous editions:

Please click on the spoiler below to reveal links to all previous editions of this thread.

“Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

“Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

“The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

“The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

“R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

“R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

“R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

“R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

“R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

“R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

“R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

“R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

“R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

“R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

“R+L=J v.22a” (thread twenty-two (a))

“R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

“R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

“R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

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"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

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"R+L=J v.70" (thread seventy)

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"R+L=J v.100" (thread one hundred)

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"R+L=J v.112" (thread one hundred twelve)

"R+L=J v.113" (thread one hundred thirteen)

"R+L=J v.114" (thread one hundred fourteen)

The TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J threads were used to openly discuss spoilers from TWoIaF at the time we needed to protect that information.

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.1"

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.2"

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.3"

"R+L=J v.115" (thread one hundred fifteen)

[JonSnow4President]

Wohoo, new thread.

[sj4iy]

New shiny.

Seriously, we need something to talk about.

How about some of the information from the World Book now that the embargo is lifted? What passages might be relevant to the theory?

[markg171]

Ned isn't known to be a nympho like Robert, and Ned was known to be too shy to approach Ashara and was called the quiet wolf. You don't see any connection?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

New shiny.

Seriously, we need something to talk about.

How about some of the information from the World Book now that the embargo is lifted? What passages might be relevant to the theory?

The Pact of Ice and Fire that supposedly set up a Targaryen-Stark marriage that ended up never happening.

[sj4iy]

The Pact of Ice and Fire that supposedly set up a Targaryen-Stark marriage that ended up never happening.

I wonder if it was still considered a valid agreement that only needed a marriage to fulfill it?

[finger]

A brought up the question in the last thread.

There were six people with Rhaegar. Hightower should take at least a squire. That adds eight people.

Most of us are giving for granted that Rhaegar wouldn't let them come back to KL so that they don't tell Aerys where ToJ was.

When Ned arrived, he just found the three KGs. If the other people were still there, Ned would have been defeated.

No need to talk about military tactics when they had dismissed their forces.

Where had they gone and why?

[Hangover of the Morning]

New shiny.

Seriously, we need something to talk about.

How about some of the information from the World Book now that the embargo is lifted? What passages might be relevant to the theory?

Some of the new info that I remember

- Lyanna was "kidnapped" near Harrenhal

- Rhaegar had half a dozen of his friends with him

- The incident happened at the very end of the year of the False Spring

- Rhaegar and Elia lived mostly on Dragonstone and not in King's Landing

[FC_Lymond]

There are so many theories about Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna, was it consensual, etc - all about Rhaegar acting recklessly. It really emphasizes that it was a bad idea for him. How often do people bring up Lyanna entrapping him? For example, using some old school northern magic to ensnare him romantically. I think it would fit in with all that we know. I wonder if it's a possibility for a big reveal.

[Salafi Stannis]

A brought up the question in the last thread.

There were six people with Rhaegar. Hightower should take at least a squire. That adds eight people.

Most of us are giving for granted that Rhaegar wouldn't let them come back to KL so that they don't tell Aerys where ToJ was.

When Ned arrived, he just found the three KGs. If the other people were still there, Ned would have been defeated.

No need to talk about military tactics when they had dismissed their forces.

Where had they gone and why?

Perhaps they were sent to KL, to bring news or deliver a message to the King? Or out for supplies? Or to bring a message to somebody?

[ToTheWolves]

I like to think that rhaegar did in fact take Lyanna against her will but she eventually came around, and he grew on her...or something like that.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I wonder if it was still considered a valid agreement that only needed a marriage to fulfill it?

I'd first like to learn who was the person who broke it..

I've been thinking about it.. It would depend on a few things, I guess..

First, which Stark did the Pact discuss? Was it Cregan himself? He, if the MUSH can be trusted, already had a son, Rickon, born just before the Dance. So would he want to marry a Targaryen Princess, whilst the Targaryen blood wouldn't continue his line?

Or did the Pact concern Rickon? In that case, another scenario comes to mind. Rickon died at Sunspear in 158 AC, but that could not have been predicted. Had there been a Targaryen Princess betrothed to him before? Probably not.. Rickon had been married when he died, and had two daughters.. He had been married for a few years already, at least.. Had he wanted a Targaryen marriage, he would only have waited a few years.. whilst Daena had most likely always been out of the question, Rhaena and Elaena were most likely born too late to be considered (according to the MUSH, Rickon's daughters were born in 150 AC and 152 AC, though I don't know how canon the MUSH is on this).

Naerys comes to mind, though.. She was born in 138 AC.. Why was she not considered to fullfill the Pact? Naerys seems to have been the only person capable of fullfilling the Pact (Baela and Rhaena were born too early, Daena, Rhaena and Elaena too late).. Was it House Targaryen who broke the Pact, or House Stark?

[Dorian Martell]

HODOR!!!!!!!!

[finger]

Perhaps they were sent to KL, to bring news or deliver a message to the King? Or out for supplies? Or to bring a message to somebody?

I don't think so. They knew their king had been killed. And one person is more than enough to carry supplies or to deliver a message.

It must be something else.

The fact is they had gone. Everyone of them. It doesn't sound like an accident, or does it?

[The Twinslayer]

New shiny.Seriously, we need something to talk about.How about some of the information from the World Book now that the embargo is lifted? What passages might be relevant to the theory?

Probably, the most significant fact in the world book for purposes of this thread is that when Rhaegar died, it was Viserys and not Aegon (or Jon) who became Aerys' "new heir."

[GodKiller]

Jon will lose most of his appeal to me if he isn't neds bastard. Can't stand the targs, would be devastated if my favorite character was a "secret targ"

[Hangover of the Morning]

Jon will lose most of his appeal to me if he isn't neds bastard. Can't stand the targs, would be devastated if my favorite character was a "secret targ"

Prepare to be disappointed. I have not much love for the Targs either but it's not exactly Jon's fault who his father was. It's up to Jon to decide what he wants to do with life and if he wants to embrace his Targaryen heritage.

[The guy from the Vale]

Probably, the most significant fact in the world book for purposes of this thread is that when Rhaegar died, it was Viserys and not Aegon (or Jon) who became Aerys' "new heir."

Considering Aegon died pretty much at the same point in time as Aerys, that's not really a new revelation, tbh.

[The Twinslayer]

Considering Aegon died pretty much at the same point in time as Aerys, that's not really a new revelation, tbh.

The significant point is that Viserys was Aerys' heir for about two weeks before Aerys died. Meaning that Viserys preceded Rhaegar's children in the line of succession. And therefore, whatever the 3KGs were doing at the TOJ, they were not defending the new king.

It also means that whether Jon is legit or not, Dany (at least arguably) has a better claim to the throne than him since Viserys explicitly made her his heir.

[sj4iy]

The significant point is that Viserys was Aerys' heir for about two weeks before Aerys died. Meaning that Viserys preceded Rhaegar's children in the line of succession. And therefore, whatever the 3KGs were doing at the TOJ, they were not defending the new king.

The equally significant part is that no one ever mentioned that Aegon was disinherited except for this Maester. Nobody. Ever. So it most definitely was either 1. Not disseminated information, or 2. Not accurate information.