R+L=J v.116

[The Twinslayer]

I really do think that Viserys being Aerys' heir in WOIAF is a function of Rhaegar and Aegon dying so closely together. Namely, the maester is writing in hindsight with the knowledge that Aegon was a goner anyway and Viserys survived. Ergo, from the current perspective, Viserys was essentially Aerys' heir.

I think it may have more to do with the fact that Elio Garcia, one of the authors of the world book, is on record in this forum stating that the 3KG stayed and fought at the TOJ because they were following orders and indicating that he does not believe that they were there defending an infant Targaryen king.

But as I pointed out above, Dany takes Aegon's ascension to the throne as a given if he had lived. That wouldn't have been the case if Viserys had been designated the heir. I also think that Viserys would have known if he had been designated the heir over Aegon, and would have conveyed this to Dany. But that doesn't jibe with Dany's understanding of the succession, which is basically how succession normally works: Aegon, as Rhaegar's son, comes before Viserys.

There are some general statements suggesting that if all had gone well, Prince Aegon would have been king after Rhaegar. But I am unaware of any passage in the books indicating that Dany thought that Prince Aegon come before Viserys after Rhaegar died. Is there a quote that supports this?

[markg171]

I think it may have more to do with the fact that Elio Garcia, one of the authors of the world book, is on record in this forum stating that the 3KG stayed and fought at the TOJ because they were following orders and indicating that he does not believe that they were there defending an infant Targaryen king.There are some general statements suggesting that if all had gone well, Prince Aegon would have been king after Rhaegar. But I am unaware of any passage in the books indicating that Dany thought that Prince Aegon come before Viserys after Rhaegar died. Is there a quote that supports this?

Maybe he says that because GRRM told him that? Let's just ignore the guy who actually talks to GRRM?

[markg171]

No, you absolutely cannot confirm anything of the sort.

You can't prove:

1. That this is truthful information;

2. That anyone else knew about it;

3. Or that, even if this is true, 3 KG stuck in a tower out in the middle of nowhere would know about it;

You have latched onto this as if it has changed everything when it has changed nothing of the sort. Until you can prove that those 3 KG knew that Viserys was named heir by Aerys, the situation is as it was before.

You can't prove or confirm anything about R+L = J, but that doesn't seem to be stopping you

[BearQueen87]

You can't prove or confirm anything about R+L = J, but that doesn't seem to be stopping you

Are you kidding me at this point?

If not RLJ, then who? And please, keep it to reference to the text.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

You can't prove or confirm anything about R+L = J, but that doesn't seem to be stopping you

The vast, vast majority (I'd say well over 90%) of the people on here believe R+L=J. These are the people who have pored over the series, analyzed it, discussed it, sometimes for years on end. They have discussed not only R+L=J but also every other conceivable alternative, dozens and dozens of times. And they've still concluded that R+L=J is the likeliest explanation and the explanation best supported by contextual evidence in the series.

So who's likelier to be right? These people with their years of experience and pooled knowledge, just about all of whom show far greater command of the material, or you, who think Ned is Jon's father "because it says so"?

[BearQueen87]

Maybe he says that because GRRM told him that? Let's just ignore the guy who actually talks to GRRM?

You do realize that Ran believes RLJ, right? That he considers is pretty much canon at this point?

[J. Stargaryen]

“The floppy ears she chose today were made of sheer white linen, with a fringe of golden tassels. With Jhiqui’s help, she wound the tokar about herself correctly on her third attempt. Irri fetched her crown, wrought in the shape of the three-headed dragon of her House. Its coils were gold, its wings silver, its three heads ivory, onyx, and jade. Dany’s neck and shoulders would be stiff and sore from the weight of it before the day was done. A crown should not sit easy on the head. One of her royal forebears had said that, once. Some Aegon, but which one? Five Aegons had ruled the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. There would have been a sixth, but the Usurper’s dogs had murdered her brother’s son when he was still a babe at the breast. If he had lived, I might have married him. Aegon would have been closer to my age than Viserys. Dany had only been conceived when Aegon and his sister were murdered. Their father, her brother Rhaegar, perished even earlier, slain by the Usurper on the Trident. Her brother Viserys had died screaming in Vaes Dothrak with a crown of molten gold upon his head. They will kill me too if I allow it. The knives that slew my Stalwart Shield were meant for me.

- ADwD, Daenerys I

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

- ADwD, Daenerys I

With this example and my earlier one, that's twice where Dany thinks of Aegon as being the eventual Aegon VI if he had lived. That makes absolutely no sense if Viserys had been bumped ahead of Rhaegar's son.

[Ygrain]

With this example and my earlier one, that's twice where Dany thinks of Aegon as being the eventual Aegon VI if he had lived. That makes absolutely no sense if Viserys had been bumped ahead of Rhaegar's son.

Exactly. No information about such a gamechanger in the series proper, but in an outside source explicitely referred to as unreliable? Yeah, sure. Pull the other leg.

On the other hand, the word choice is peculiar. New heir - isn't it a sort of heads up for the oncoming reveal? Like, Viserys is Aerys' heir, so why are the KG still stuck at ToJ?

[markg171]

Of course, this is also the world of literature, so it would seem very odd do romanticize the kingsguard's final defense at the ToJ if they were doing something particular ignoble. Is it definitive, drop the mic proof? Hell no. But it's yet another indicator of R+L=J, particular a legitimate J.

And of course, anyone pretending they are there on orders to guard a rape prisoner doesn't even try to explain why Ned thinks of them as shining examples to the world. This is a man who we have seen consider his "duties" to his king to be subordinate to the well being of the weak and innocent, so it would certainly be odd for Ned to consider them (or at least Dayne) as shining examples of knighthood if they are merely guarding Lyanna so Rhaegar can have a good rape.

“

You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.^[10]

”

– Gerold, to Jaime Lannister, after Aerys II Targaryen murdered Brandon and Rickard Stark

[IceFire125]

“ You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.^[10] ”

– Gerold, to Jaime Lannister, after Aerys II Targaryen murdered Brandon and Rickard Stark

The same Gerold who did not consider Viserys to have a claim on his vow as Kingsguard, when given the chance to go to Dragonstone. Because at that moment, the only person to have a claim of his Kingsguard vow was a little baby inside that tower, the true heir to throne, in his eyes.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

“ You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.^[10] ”

– Gerold, to Jaime Lannister, after Aerys II Targaryen murdered Brandon and Rickard Stark

I'm not sure what Gerold saying that to Jaime has to do with Ned's perception of the Kingsguard if he found out that they were basically guarding Rhaegar's rape den.

[markg171]

The vast, vast majority (I'd say well over 90%) of the people on here believe R+L=J. These are the people who have pored over the series, analyzed it, discussed it, sometimes for years on end. They have discussed not only R+L=J but also every other conceivable alternative, dozens and dozens of times. And they've still concluded that R+L=J is the likeliest explanation and the explanation best supported by contextual evidence in the series.

So who's likelier to be right? These people with their years of experience and pooled knowledge, just about all of whom show far greater command of the material, or you, who think Ned is Jon's father "because it says so"?

I've heard all the arguments and they all require you to reach a very specific conclusion based off very specific interpretations off perceived slights in the text, and stress is required to be placed on words that otherwise had no stress. In short, you need to reach to create the connections to make R+L=J. It's certainly possible to come to this conclusion, but it requires a huge amount of jumping around connecting perceived dots, while ignoring everything else. It's called confirmation bias. You want it to be true, so you find anything that could be slightly interpreted to reach this conclusion and call it evidence, while simply dismissing anything that could run contrary to it.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

I would love to know how the message from Lyanna to Rhaegar would go."Rhaegar my beloved guess what auntie Flo has made a visit please come and pic me up."

I am more inclined to believe that Arthur Dayne is Jon's father not Rhaegar .

1Arthur Dayne was much closer to the Starks than Rhaegar

2Since AD lost to Rhaegar he could not award Lyanna the title Queen of love and beauty,Rhaegar as his friend did the best next thing.

3 Arthur was with Lyanna from the start of the rebellion to its end.

4 Rhaegar is more worried about his insane father's feelings than his future brother in law ,he even induced Aerys to call on Tywin .

5 Arthur showed some remorse before the last battle .

6 The last words on Rhaegar's lips wasn't Lyanna but was Rhaenys his baby girl .

[IceFire125]

I've heard all the arguments and they all require you to reach a very specific conclusion based off very specific interpretations off perceived slights in the text, and stress is required to be placed on words that otherwise had no stress. In short, you need to reach to create the connections to make R+L=J. It's certainly possible to come to this conclusion, but it requires a huge amount of jumping around connecting perceived dots, while ignoring everything else. It's called confirmation bias. You want it to be true, so you find anything that could be slightly interpreted to reach this conclusion and call it evidence, while simply dismissing anything that could run contrary to it.

Please enlighten us your alternative theory, but make sure to use the same scrutiny that you placed on R+L=J. I would like to see you try.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I've heard all the arguments and they all require you to reach a very specific conclusion based off very specific interpretations off perceived slights in the text, and stress is required to be placed on words that otherwise had no stress. In short, you need to reach to create the connections to make R+L=J. It's certainly possible to come to this conclusion, but it requires a huge amount of jumping around connecting perceived dots, while ignoring everything else. It's called confirmation bias. You want it to be true, so you find anything that could be slightly interpreted to reach this conclusion and call it evidence, while simply dismissing anything that could run contrary to it.

... Yeah I'm sure nearly everyone else here is mistaken and you are the voice of reason.

[markg171]

I'm not sure what Gerold saying that to Jaime has to do with Ned's perception of the Kingsguard if he found out that they were basically guarding Rhaegar's rape den.

He already knows they stood back and did nothing as Aerys had Brandon strangle himself trying to save his roasting father. Them standing back and doing nothing as Rhaegar rapes and imprisons Lyanna likely isn't going to therefore change any opinion he might have had of them. Rather it would confirm what he knows: they keep their vows and obey their orders

As the Kingsguard's vows are only to the royal family, Ned can still think of them as some of the greatest knights of all time, even if they were assholes. They kept their vows and obeyed their orders. That's all that's required of them and the fact that they would do so when they might not want to, shows them to be good knights in their own context.

[markg171]

Please enlighten us your alternative theory, but make sure to use the same scrutiny that you placed on R+L=J. I would like to see you try.

Unlike you guys, I don't need a theory. It says right there in the books who he is.

[markg171]

... Yeah I'm sure nearly everyone else here is mistaken and you are the voice of reason.

You realize that you're the vast minority right? This is an internet forum

[markg171]

The same Gerold who did not consider Viserys to have a claim on his vow as Kingsguard, when given the chance to go to Dragonstone. Because at that moment, the only person to have a claim of his Kingsguard vow was a little baby inside that tower, the true heir to throne, in his eyes.

Nothing says there was a baby in the tower. That is something you guys have concluded. There's nothing that says that baby, if it ever existed, would be the heir. That is something you guys have concluded.