R+L=J v.116

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Please enlighten us your alternative theory, but make sure to use the same scrutiny that you placed on R+L=J. I would like to see you try.

I'm also curious as to why the identity of Jon's mother is still a secret if in fact the solution is just Wylla, a fisherman's daughter or Ashara Dayne. This poster scoffed at the idea of GRRM holding out this long if R+L=J, yet the same could be said about the identity of Jon's mother, which is still up in the air even if his father is Ned.

Is it really going to be at all narratively satisfying if Jon's mother turns out to be some nobody? (No.)

Unlike you guys, I don't need a theory. It says right there in the books who he is.

Again ... you have no idea how to read these novels if you think everything can and should be taken at face value. And instead of actually reading what people on here are saying and maybe learning a thing or two about how GRRM actually writes, you fall back on "but it says this so it must be true." Straight up, when it comes to actually predicting stuff and solving the mysteries, that gets you to bumfuck nowhere.

You realize that you're the vast minority right? This is an internet forum

I'll take quality over quantity. Among the people who actually pay attention to the series and dig a little deeper beyond what they're spoonfed (i.e. the sorts of people who typically post on a forum dedicated to discussing the series in minute detail), R+L=J is basically canon. The masses who read the series casually and don't pay that much attention may not have put it together yet, but they're not exactly the sorts I'd expect to have a deeper understanding of the series.

[BearQueen87]

I would love to know how the message from Lyanna to Rhaegar would go."Rhaegar my beloved guess what auntie Flo has made a visit please come and pic me up."

I am more inclined to believe that Arthur Dayne is Jon's father not Rhaegar .

1Arthur Dayne was much closer to the Starks than Rhaegar

2Since AD lost to Rhaegar he could not award Lyanna the title Queen of love and beauty,Rhaegar as his friend did the best next thing.

3 Arthur was with Lyanna from the start of the rebellion to its end.

4 Rhaegar is more worried about his insane father's feelings than his future brother in law ,he even induced Aerys to call on Tywin .

5 Arthur showed some remorse before the last battle .

6 The last words on Rhaegar's lips wasn't Lyanna but was Rhaenys his baby girl .

And what exactly was Rhaegar doing at the ToJ, just chillin' while Arthur and Lyanna knocked boots?...and why didn't Hightower kill Arthur for breaking his vows?

And 6. No. the last name on Rhaegar's lips was Lyanna. It's confirmed via the app which was done in connection with GRRM answering questions to the people who put it together.

Nothing says there was a baby in the tower. That is something you guys have concluded. There's nothing that says that baby, if it ever existed, would be the heir. That is something you guys have concluded.

Bed of blood = childbirth in this series. GRRM isn't going to say anything until the big reveal, but he gives clues. This is a mystery he wants you to figure it out.

Also, I notice you haven't responded to the fact that Elio thinks RLJ is as good as done at this point, but you take his word on the TOJ.

[J. Stargaryen]

I guess it's just a massive frickin' coincidence that so many people come to the conclusion that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, even though Ned claims him as his son. What's the explanation for that? There's no way that should just be happening, on such a large scale, if it's not true.

Anyway, citing a blatant false clue as an authority is just all kinds of funny to me. I wonder how that guy deals with sarcasm. But he said...

[markg171]

I'm also curious as to why the identity of Jon's mother is still a secret if in fact the solution is just Wylla, a fisherman's daughter or Ashara Dayne. This poster scoffed at the idea of GRRM holding out this long if R+L=J, yet the same could be said about the identity of Jon's mother, which is still up in the air even if his father is Ned.

Is it really going to be at all narratively satisfying if Jon's mother turns out to be some nobody? (No.)

Again ... you have no idea how to read these novels if you think everything can and should be taken at face value. And instead of actually reading what people on here are saying and maybe learning a thing or two about how GRRM actually writes, you fall back on "but it says this so it must be true." Straight up, when it comes to actually predicting stuff and solving the mysteries, that gets you to bumfuck nowhere.

I'll take quality over quantity. Among the people who actually pay attention to the series and dig a little deeper beyond what they're spoonfed (i.e. the sorts of people who typically post on a forum dedicated to discussing the series in minute detail), R+L=J is basically canon. The masses who read the series casually and don't pay that much attention may not have put it together yet, but they're not exactly the sorts I'd expect to have a deeper understanding of the series.

Are you kidding me? You do realize Ned died 5 books ago right? Ashara as well? The fisherman's daughter is never even given a name. So how the hell do you expect Jon's mother to be revealed, if you won't listen to what the people in the story say and most of the people who would know are dead? If Jon does happen to be revealed to be Lyanna and Rhaegar's then I'd love to see how you're going to accept that and proclaim it as suddenly undeniably true. Because the only way for that to be is for someone to come forward in the books and proclaim it, not just through all your interpretations. But if you're willing to accept R+L=J because someone in the books says so, then you can accept that he's Ned's because numerous people do as well. If you can't accept the characters in the story saying that Jon is Ned's, then you can't accept them saying he isn't otherwise you're being biased.

And my point about "scoffing at GRRM for holding out this long if R+L=J" is the fact that he's never once hidden something for so long. Every single time he keeps something hidden, it's revealed very quickly. It's been 5 books and Jon is dead, yet nothing ever changed. He's been Ned's all along in the story. The only other time he's ever pulled off a long con is with Aegon, yet Aegon was never in the books until the 5th and it's expected that in the 6th we'll find out if he's real or not. So again, GRRM would be resolving that issue very quickly. He never chose to resolve the issue of Jon's mother across 5 books as it's irrelevant, all that matters is that he's Ned's.

And the whole "you don't know how to read these books if everything can be taken at face value" is a silly argument. When has GRRM ever said not to read the books at face value? Sure some things have deeper meanings, but it's you guys on here who have decided that everything is done for a reason and specific words are only used in certain situations. The writer himself has admitted to forgetting what he wrote in the books and has been known to get the little details that you guys focus on so much wrong between book to book. He clearly can't pay that much attention to what he writes.

[J. Stargaryen]

GRRM clearly can't pay that much attention to what he writes, you guys.

[markg171]

And what exactly was Rhaegar doing at the ToJ, just chillin' while Arthur and Lyanna knocked boots?...and why didn't Hightower kill Arthur for breaking his vows?

And 6. No. the last name on Rhaegar's lips was Lyanna. It's confirmed via the app which was done in connection with GRRM answering questions to the people who put it together.

Bed of blood = childbirth in this series. GRRM isn't going to say anything until the big reveal, but he gives clues. This is a mystery he wants you to figure it out.

Also, I notice you haven't responded to the fact that Elio thinks RLJ is as good as done at this point, but you take his word on the TOJ.

How many births have their been in the series that you can say it has to be that? Does like the 3 occurrences mean those words must go with that?

And I didn't respond to that cause I had no idea who Ran is or whoever he said. I've been here like 3 days.

[BearQueen87]

How many births have their been in the series that you can say it has to be that? Does like the 3 occurrences mean those words must go with that?

And I didn't respond to that cause I had no idea who Ran is or whoever he said. I've been here like 3 days.

"The secrets of the bloody bed" for example is a direct reference to childbirth, MMD to Dany when Dany asks MMD to be there when she gives birth. Lyanna dies in her bed of blood.There other references, like Cersei saying that a woman's life is mostly blood and mess and she is referring to giving birth.

Ran = Elio

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

<snip>

Where do you think R+L=J came from, and why has it thrived and gained support where other theories have fizzled out? If it's really so stupidly easy as "Ned is Jon's father because the book says so," how do you explain so many people independently coming to the R+L=J conclusion, and so many people who hadn't figured it out yet coming to believe it when presented with the evidence? If it's really so stupidly easy as "Ned is Jon's father because the book says so," why did so many people independently conclude that GRRM is suggesting that Ned isn't Jon's father? If the argument is so weak, why wasn't the originator of the theory torn apart, laughed off whatever website (s)he was posting on, and the theory never heard from again?

The theory is the predominant one because it's the one that makes the most textual sense.

And no shit GRRM isn't going to spell out explicitly what to look for. That's the entire damn point: He doesn't spoonfeed readers things because he expects them to use their brains to figure it out for themselves. If something is presented as straightforward or overly simple or convenient (like, say, Ned being Jon's father), it's probably not true or you're not getting the whole story. He does this numerous times.

If you can't put something together without being beaten over the head with it, you're reading the wrong series.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

And I didn't respond to that cause I had no idea who Ran is or whoever he said. I've been here like 3 days.

Ran is Elio, the guy you elevated because he "actually talks to GRRM." That guy thinks R+L=J.

You've been here for 3 days and haven't learned a damn thing.

[BearQueen87]

Are you kidding me? You do realize Ned died 5 books ago right? Ashara as well? The fisherman's daughter is never even given a name. So how the hell do you expect Jon's mother to be revealed, if you won't listen to what the people in the story say and most of the people who would know are dead? If Jon does happen to be revealed to be Lyanna and Rhaegar's then I'd love to see how you're going to accept that and proclaim it as suddenly undeniably true. Because the only way for that to be is for someone to come forward in the books and proclaim it, not just through all your interpretations. But if you're willing to accept R+L=J because someone in the books says so, then you can accept that he's Ned's because numerous people do as well. If you can't accept the characters in the story saying that Jon is Ned's, then you can't accept them saying he isn't otherwise you're being biased.

Uh...his name is Howland Reed...

OR his name is Bran via the weirnet. You know...the kid who sees into the past?

[markg171]

"The secrets of the bloody bed" for example is a direct reference to childbirth, MMD to Dany when Dany asks MMD to be there when she gives birth. Lyanna dies in her bed of blood.There other references, like Cersei saying that a woman's life is mostly blood and mess and she is referring to giving birth.

Ran = Elio

So twice means it has to refer to child birth

[IceFire125]

Unlike you guys, I don't need a theory. It says right there in the books who he is.

Oh, could you please inform me again, who do you think are Jon's true blood Father and Mother?

or link me back to your post where you stated clearly that, "I believe Jon's true parents are ____ and ____"

I'm just curious, you're being very vague about answering a simple question.

I'm also curious as to why the identity of Jon's mother is still a secret if in fact the solution is just Wylla, a fisherman's daughter or Ashara Dayne. This poster scoffed at the idea of GRRM holding out this long if R+L=J, yet the same could be said about the identity of Jon's mother, which is still up in the air even if his father is Ned.

Is it really going to be at all narratively satisfying if Jon's mother turns out to be some nobody? (No.)

Maybe one of those posters that is bitter and still believes GRRM will finally change the 'formula' before the end, then gets stabbed by GRRM again and again when he make public statements, saying, that he would not change it even when fans have caught on to his 'mystery'.

I mean, I guess we saw it on the show, that Ned told Robert that it was Wylla... so I guess, Wylla? Should we open up a E+W=J thread? I mean it says so in the books and show for that matter...

--

I like this :)

Robert to Ned:

Ned’s mouth tightened in anger. “Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men.”

“Gods have mercy, you scarcely knew Catelyn.”

“I had taken her to wife. She was carrying my child.”

“You are too hard on yourself, Ned. You always were. Damn it, no woman wants Baelor the Blessed in her bed.”

Barristan to Dany:

“As a young boy, the Prince of Dragonstone was bookish to a fault. He was reading so early that men said Queen Rhaella must have swallowed some books and a candle whilst he was in her womb. Rhaegar took no interest in the play of other children. The maesters were awed by his wits, but his father’s knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again. Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, ‘I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior.’ ”

Robert to Ned:

“I was always strong … no one could stand before me, no one. How do you fight someone if you can’t hit them?” Confused, the king shook his head. “Rhaegar … Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet. They made up songs about it. Yet somehow he still won. He has Lyanna now, and I have her.

It's a way of telling us that Lyanna wanted Rhaegar, the 'no woman wants Baelor the Blessed in her bed' is so GRRM-like in pulling a fast one at us. ^_^

Because it's coming from Robert's mouth, that's the bitter irony he feels, upon realizing that he still lost and Rhaegar won.

[BearQueen87]

If you can't put something together without being beaten over the head with it, you're reading the wrong series.

This #%^%&%$Y% sentence needs to be stapled to this damn thread and all iterations hereafter.

WORD to this sentence. Just...WORD

/grumpy

/tired

So twice means it has to refer to child birth

did you miss the part where I said "other references?" Do you want someone to spell every single one of them out?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

So twice means it has to refer to child birth

When it's only used to refer to childbirth, yeah. I said this before, but Mirri uses the euphemism "the bloody bed" to refer to childbirth. The meaning she's conveying is unmistakeable. And Dany knows exactly what she means, which is why she doesn't immediately say, "What the hell are you on about a bloody bed? I'm talking about having a baby."

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

did you miss the part where I said "other references?" Do you want someone to spell every single one of them out?

There's a pretty explicit one from ... Aeron? ... I think. Talking about women giving birth in "beds of blood." And Catelyn and Brienne's discussion about how childbirth is basically like going to war, for women. Not an exact use of the "bed of blood" phrasing, but the meaning of childbirth violence is conveyed.

ETA:

In the interest of explaining it fully.

"Beds of blood" = women's childbeds

"Lyanna in her bed of blood" = Lyanna in her childbed

[Ygrain]

When it's only used to refer to childbirth, yeah. I said this before, but Mirri uses the euphemism "the bloody bed" to refer to childbirth. The meaning she's conveying is unmistakeable. And Dany knows exactly what she means, which is why she doesn't immediately say, "What the hell are you on about a bloody bed? I'm talking about having a baby."

And for those who cannot read, it is spelled out in Damphair PoV later on that women birth children in beds of blood and pain (I'm at work so I don't have my list of quotes at hand, so I'm just paraphrasing).

ETA: Ninja'ed by AM

[J. Stargaryen]

I like this :)

Robert to Ned:

Ned’s mouth tightened in anger. “Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men.”

“Gods have mercy, you scarcely knew Catelyn.”

“I had taken her to wife. She was carrying my child.”

“You are too hard on yourself, Ned. You always were. Damn it, no woman wants Baelor the Blessed in her bed.”

Barristan to Dany:

“As a young boy, the Prince of Dragonstone was bookish to a fault. He was reading so early that men said Queen Rhaella must have swallowed some books and a candle whilst he was in her womb. Rhaegar took no interest in the play of other children. The maesters were awed by his wits, but his father’s knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again. Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, ‘I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior.’ ”

Robert to Ned:

“I was always strong … no one could stand before me, no one. How do you fight someone if you can’t hit them?” Confused, the king shook his head. “Rhaegar … Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet. They made up songs about it. Yet somehow he still won. He has Lyanna now, and I have her.

It's a way of telling us that Lyanna wanted Rhaegar, the 'no woman wants Baelor the Blessed in her bed' is so GRRM-like in pulling a fast one at us. ^_^

Because it's coming from Robert's mouth, that's the bitter irony he feels, upon realizing that he still lost and Rhaegar won.

Oh, this is so good. I never noticed that before. Nice! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[BearQueen87]

Thanks to AM and Ygrain. The Damphair one is a great example.

There is also, of course, for our current doubter the actual act of giving birth which is--literally--a bloody experience. This isn't a cute turn of phrase or idea that GRRM invented. It's actually what happens when women give birth.

[markg171]

Where do you think R+L=J came from, and why has it thrived and gained support where other theories have fizzled out? If it's really so stupidly easy as "Ned is Jon's father because the book says so," how do you explain so many people independently coming to the R+L=J conclusion, and so many people who hadn't figured it out yet coming to believe it when presented with the evidence? If it's really so stupidly easy as "Ned is Jon's father because the book says so," why did so many people independently conclude that GRRM is suggesting that Ned isn't Jon's father? If the argument is so weak, why wasn't the originator of the theory torn apart, laughed off whatever website (s)he was posting on, and the theory never heard from again?

The theory is the predominant one because it's the one that makes the most textual sense.

And no shit GRRM isn't going to spell out explicitly what to look for. That's the entire damn point: He doesn't spoonfeed readers things because he expects them to use their brains to figure it out for themselves. If something is presented as straightforward or overly simple or convenient (like, say, Ned being Jon's father), it's probably not true or you're not getting the whole story. He does this numerous times.

If you can't put something together without being beaten over the head with it, you're reading the wrong series.

You ever think it's lasted so long because you guys keep remaking the thread, only posting the information for why he is and never why he's not (despite when new information or counterarguments are presented), and the fact that these threads get pinned?

Seems to me like people on the forum are led to come to the conclusion. They don't independently come to it like you claim.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Thanks to AM and Ygrain. The Damphair one is a great example.

There is also, of course, for our current doubter the actual act of giving birth which is--literally--a bloody experience. This isn't a cute turn of phrase or idea that GRRM invented. It's actually what happens when women give birth.

Indeed. I can tell when someone has no idea what the birthing process is like when they try to argue that a birthing bed wouldn't be described as bloody (and yes people have tried to argue that).