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Theory on Serra/Varys's origins (WOIAF spoilers)


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Yes, that's the only source for this 'Aerion has Lysene children' thing, and it is phrased as hypothetical. Aerion 'may have fathered some bastards' does not mean that he has actually fathered some bastard, let alone any boys.



People really started to begin telling tales about that one, speculating that Aerion may have had a Lysene wife and other stuff, but that's all really not the case.



Rhaenys,



for the sake of Rohanne I'd suggests that we go with seven sons and two daughters. That would have been eight pregnancies already, and we should give her and Daemon the benefit of the doubt (like, that she did not always conceive at the earliest possible moment, or that she visited her family in Tyrosh once in a while).



The section on Daeron II states that Daemon agreed to marry Calla to Aegor, but it does not go in detail when the wedding occurred. My guess is that this was after the First Blackfyre Rebellion in Tyrosh, as Calla could have been only 10/11 at the time of the Redgrass Field, and that would have been way too young for a marriage.



I'm also inclined to believe that she may already be dead during the Dunk & Egg series, as Bittersteel is going to found the Golden Company in 212 AC, and this does not suggest that he still had time to spend all that much time with his wife.


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Lord Varys,



Agreed on the total number of children (poor Rohanne...).



As to Aegor and Calla... You mean that only the betrothal came before the First Blackfyre Rebellion, and the marriage afterwards? Yeah, that could be, that would be a better scenario.



It could be that Calla had died by 212 AC, but she could also have remained in Tyrosh, with Aegor visiting her every now and then. Otherwise, she would have died rather young.. She could have died in childbirth, or of simple illness, but she would have been a young woman taken care of by her mother's family, meaning that there would have been the maester-equivalent of Tyrosh..


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Funny, this has also been my theory. Only still Brightfyre style. I think Illyrio is the son of the sister or daughter (depending on Daemon's own age) of the Daemon Blackfyre Maelys murdered. This sister/daughter probably escaped Maelys and his cronies the same way Dany and Viserys made it across, with the help of a few loyal men. In the end, their flight ended in Pentos. Illyrio's mum either died in childbirth (giving birth to him) or just died there leaving young Illyrio with little to no knowledge of his heritage. He would have grown up on the street and developed into the young braavo Varys first encountered.


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Velt,



I think if Illyrio Mopatis were in truth the son of Daemon's sister or daughter I think he and Varys would not have been able to keep this a secret. Right now Illyrio Mopatis is a very prominent (and wealthy) man, and such men have enemies/competitors/rivals and business partners they have to deal with - even if they have partners like Varys - and those people would/should investigate Illyrio's past.



Illyrio was already a Magister when Varys joined Aerys' council, and it does not seem likely that Aerys was not aware of the fact that Varys was friends with Illyrio (or that Varys/Illyrio could keep that a secret at this time).



Not to mention that pretty much everyone in Pentos should have been kind of irritated by the fact that Daemon Blackfyre's grandson/nephew was harboring Viserys and Daenerys Targaryen. How the hell could Illyrio be certain that no one would tell Viserys/Dany about Illyrio's past?



But if Illyrio was in fact Bittlersteel/Calla's descendant through multiple female generations that fact would be much easier to obscure.


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Why the would he shave off his hair under those circumstances?

Well, if you cannot answer that yourself Lord Varys, what can I say? I haven't read any of your surely interesting PoV. :D

Seriously, I think Varys shaves his hair because even if people knows he comes from Lys, it is not the same to have him looking like a Targ all over the Red Keep, like Aurane Waters, for example, who started Cersei's thoughts of Rhaegar. Beside, he also disguises himself and that is easier if he doesn't have hair. This doesn't prove anything, but is a practical reason, I guess.

I have to say that even when his name sounds like 'dracarys' or Aerys, or Viserys, I never noticed it until book five, and I never connected him with Egg! That shocked me a little because it was there all the time, plain to see, but I never made the connection. The point is that 'to know' doesn't have the same effect than to be watching him all the time looking like a Targaryen. So he wears funny clothes, perfumes, he giggles stupidly, he doesn't look westerosi. All that helps to confuse people (characters) so they don't think about Varys, they think of The Eunuch or The Spider or The Master of Whisperers.

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I'm overall not sure that Varys/Illyrio did want to kill Dany. Viserys, perhaps, eventually, but that may not have been necessary, as Viserys could have actually stepped down in favor of Aegon.

As to Varys' hair: I also tossed around the idea that he may have silver-golden hair, but if you think about it there would be no reason for him to hide it, as it is apparently publicly known that he is Lyseni by birth, and thus it should not be a surprise if he has Valyrian features (as many Lyseni, noblemen and commoners alike, still have Valyrian features). Why the would he shave off his hair under those circumstances?

Continuing that: Semi-canon sources depict Varys with brown eyes, very much suggesting that he is not of pure-blooded Valyrian heritage, even if he should have silver-golden hair (which could be a hint towards the Blackfyre rather than the Maegor hypothesis, as the cadet branches of House Blackfyre may not have been able to marry pure-blooded Blackfyre sisters/cousins/aunts.

It's a mummer's cut.
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Daemon married Rohanne of Tyrosh in 184 AC, and his twins (Aemon and Aegon) were born later that year, so also in 184 AC.

The Blackfyre Rebellion lasted almost a year, and both started and ended in 196 AC, IIRC. So basically, all of Daemon's seven sons were born in or before early 196 AC.

Daemon II was 22 years old in 211 AC, and 7 in 196 AC, so he was born in either 188 AC (7 turning 8 in 196 AC, and 22 turning 23 in 211 AC), or 189 AC.

Haegon, at least one year younger that Daemon, was thus born in or between 189 AC and 193 AC, Aenys between 190 AC and 194 AC, the sixth son between 191 AC and 195 AC, and the seventh son between 192 AC and 196 AC (early in the year)

The girls (there were at least two) would have been born somewhere in between.

As there is a 4 or 5-year gap between Aemon/Aegon and Daemon, it would make most sense for Calla and her sister(s) to have been born in between these brothers, but that is never actually stated.

Calla was married to Aegor, but we don't know when this was. It could have been only months before the Rebellion began, it could have been a few years.

Calla would have been born in late 185 AC the earliest, as the twins were born in late 184 AC, so she had been 11 years old at the end of the Blackfyre Rebellion, if she hadn't been younger. That means that when she was married off to Aegor, no matter what her actual birth year was, she would have been rather young.

I seriously wonder why Daemon would agree to marry his daughter to Aegor that young..

In any case, Daemon and Rohanne were married 13 years, and seven sons from six pregnancies, adding at least two daughters... there could have been more daughters, but seriously, Rohanne wouldn't have been giving birth every year... Nine children (8 pregnancies) within 13 years is already very much.. I wouldn't rule out a third daughter, but I wouldn't consider any more to be likely.

There could've been more than one set of twins, no?
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Well, honestly, I expected Varys to have silver-golden stubble in ADwD. That would have been a really good way to cow Kevan. The fact that he did not strongly suggests that we never see his hair color. And it would be a great symbolic gesture if he showed up at Aegon's side in TWoW with full-grown silver-golden hair.



But I guess the practical/disguise thing is the actual reason why he does it, rather than a way to hide his true identity or something like that.



LB,



female twins, perhaps. Aegon and Aemon are once called 'the twins', suggesting that Daemon had only one set of twins.


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As to Aegor and Calla... You mean that only the betrothal came before the First Blackfyre Rebellion, and the marriage afterwards? Yeah, that could be, that would be a better scenario.

It could be that Calla had died by 212 AC, but she could also have remained in Tyrosh, with Aegor visiting her every now and then. Otherwise, she would have died rather young.. She could have died in childbirth, or of simple illness, but she would have been a young woman taken care of by her mother's family, meaning that there would have been the maester-equivalent of Tyrosh..

The members of the Golden Company have families left and right. Remember Harry Strickland "Gold for five generations"? He is not the only one born into the company and basically raised in the baggage train.

Most long-serving mercenaries found families that way.

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Well if Varys is a eunuch, the male line I suppose is extinct.

I don't think that's how the lines genders work.

Stannis would be off the female line of house Targaryen, despite being male, because his grandmother is where his Targ blood is from.

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Funny, this has also been my theory. Only still Brightfyre style. I think Illyrio is the son of the sister or daughter (depending on Daemon's own age) of the Daemon Blackfyre Maelys murdered. This sister/daughter probably escaped Maelys and his cronies the same way Dany and Viserys made it across, with the help of a few loyal men. In the end, their flight ended in Pentos. Illyrio's mum either died in childbirth (giving birth to him) or just died there leaving young Illyrio with little to no knowledge of his heritage. He would have grown up on the street and developed into the young braavo Varys first encountered.

The theory doesn't preclude the Brightfyre element; I just think the families would have merged before Maelys/Daemon's generation. Or perhaps Daemon's wife was a Brightflame descendant so if Varys and Serra are his descendants, they'd be Brightfyres,

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I don't think that's how the lines genders work.

Stannis would be off the female line of house Targaryen, despite being male, because his grandmother is where his Targ blood is from.

If BBE's suggestion is correct and Varys and Serra are grandkids and not kids of Daemon, if their mother was Daemon's daughter, then "extinct in the male line" would still be true, even though Varys is male.

(I still think extinct in the male line works even if Varys is Daemon's son, since he's a eunuch; he can't reproduce, so practically speaking, the male line IS extinct. There's also the running theme in the books of eunuchs being "less than" "real men." It just depends on how pendantic people feel like being.)

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other than targ/blackfyre/brightflame, the ONLY other acceptable secret identity for Varys id accept.... is Reyne :)

I say, "Why stop there?" Aegon is also a descendant of Brynden and Shiera, making him a Targaryen-Blackfyre-Brightflame- ...wait for it... -Bloodstar!

In other words, a chimera or sphinx ;)

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I say, "Why stop there?" Aegon is also a descendant of Brynden and Shiera, making him a Targaryen-Blackfyre-Brightflame- ...wait for it... -Bloodstar!

well no i buy into aegon being descent from brightflame and then a hybrid of blackfyre/brightflame line down the road. i crackpot it into him being ALL 3 monickers of the dragon and thus, he'd BE all 3 heads: brightflame, blackfyre, and targaryen. in retrospect it'd unite all stray targaryen monickers, and his existence alone puts to rest all the dances of targaryen history. the perfect would-be king.

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well no i buy into aegon being descent from brightflame and then a hybrid of blackfyre/brightflame line down the road. i crackpot it into him being ALL 3 monickers of the dragon and thus, he'd BE all 3 heads: brightflame, blackfyre, and targaryen. in retrospect it'd unite all stray targaryen monickers, and his existence alone puts to rest all the dances of targaryen history. the perfect would-be king.

Pah, I say pah! He likely has Velaryon and Celtigar blood too.
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Velt,

I think if Illyrio Mopatis were in truth the son of Daemon's sister or daughter I think he and Varys would not have been able to keep this a secret. Right now Illyrio Mopatis is a very prominent (and wealthy) man, and such men have enemies/competitors/rivals and business partners they have to deal with - even if they have partners like Varys - and those people would/should investigate Illyrio's past.

Illyrio was already a Magister when Varys joined Aerys' council, and it does not seem likely that Aerys was not aware of the fact that Varys was friends with Illyrio (or that Varys/Illyrio could keep that a secret at this time).

Not to mention that pretty much everyone in Pentos should have been kind of irritated by the fact that Daemon Blackfyre's grandson/nephew was harboring Viserys and Daenerys Targaryen. How the hell could Illyrio be certain that no one would tell Viserys/Dany about Illyrio's past?

Obviously, if Daemon's sister or daughter had fled from Maelys, she would have traveled in disguise. If she died, leaving young Illyrio alone, that could have been it.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised that some of Illyrio's enemies knew where he hailed from. The thing is, I think there aren't many in Pentos who can stand up to him. The nobility is basically powerless. Which leaves the magisters. I think that, of what we saw, we can clearly deduce that Illyrio is one (if not the) most powerful magisters in Pentos.

I'm curious about Tatters tale. I think he could tell Dany some interesting things when they meet in tWoW. Things that might have Dany reconsider her opinion of Illyrio, while also making him the natural ally to go and change things in Pentos.

But if Illyrio was in fact Bittlersteel/Calla's descendant through multiple female generations that fact would be much easier to obscure.

The things that keeps bugging me are simple. We don't know if Bittersteel and Calla had any progeny, we don't even know if the match was ever consumated. Neither Calla or a child of Bittersteel have been mentioned in the main series or D&E, which is a clear strike against them be any important. On top of that, Bittersteel was the BF-King in all but name. He chose who got to bear the sword after all. If he had a child with Calla, there is no doubt in my mind that she would be married back into the main lines of BF.

Well, if you cannot answer that yourself Lord Varys, what can I say? I haven't read any of your surely interesting PoV. :D

Seriously, I think Varys shaves his hair because even if people knows he comes from Lys, it is not the same to have him looking like a Targ all over the Red Keep, like Aurane Waters, for example, who started Cersei's thoughts of Rhaegar. Beside, he also disguises himself and that is easier if he doesn't have hair. This doesn't prove anything, but is a practical reason, I guess.

I have to say that even when his name sounds like 'dracarys' or Aerys, or Viserys, I never noticed it until book five, and I never connected him with Egg! That shocked me a little because it was there all the time, plain to see, but I never made the connection. The point is that 'to know' doesn't have the same effect than to be watching him all the time looking like a Targaryen. So he wears funny clothes, perfumes, he giggles stupidly, he doesn't look westerosi. All that helps to confuse people (characters) so they don't think about Varys, they think of The Eunuch or The Spider or The Master of Whisperers.

:agree: What's also funny is how Aerion's favourite threat against Egg's seems to have been castration. The irony is quite beautiful if Varys, the eunuch, would turn out to be his descendant.

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On Illyrio:



Prior to ADwD I was going with 'Illyrio is the de facto ruler of Pentos'. ADwD made him somewhat more something as the curious foreigner/new man who wields a lot of power but is focused on his own plots and intrigues which have little to do with Pentos itself. The fact that the Prince of Pentos apparently banished Illyrio from his palace when Illyrio married Serra is a pretty big hint that even Illyrio could fall from grace. That must have been a huge setback for him, at least insofar as influence in Pentos was concerned.



Calla/Bittersteel:



They would only have consummated their marriage after the First Blackfyre Rebellion. And I'm pretty sure that George has not put that one in the book just to give us another broken betrothal/childless marriage. My guess is that Bittersteel had either only daughters (with one of them marrying Haegon or Daemon III), or a daughters and sons, with the latter all dying during the Third and Fourth Rebellion.



The Tattered Prince:



It seems like my old theory of him being an ancient enemy/rival of Varys/Illyrio seems to be sort of disproved by TWoIaF as it states that Tatters left Pentos in the year 262 AC. Considering that Varys only became Master of Whisperers around 278/9 AC, I don't think they were already partners/old or influential enough in 262 AC to force him into exile by getting him elected Prince (if that's what happened).



It has been suggested that the Tattered Prince may actually be Maegor - an interesting notion that would actually fit age-wise (the Tattered Prince is 'well past sixty' - and he could easily have joined the Forty Families if he either married a Pentoshi noblewoman or Daenora took a Pentoshi as her second husband after Aerion's death.


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“But now my little friend must excuse me. I have the honor to be a magister of this great city, and the prince has summoned us to session.”



I don't think Illyrio fell from grace. He is a magister, doing the duties of a magister.


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The Tattered Prince:

It seems like my old theory of him being an ancient enemy/rival of Varys/Illyrio seems to be sort of disproved by TWoIaF as it states that Tatters left Pentos in the year 262 AC. Considering that Varys only became Master of Whisperers around 278/9 AC, I don't think they were already partners/old or influential enough in 262 AC to force him into exile by getting him elected Prince (if that's what happened).

It has been suggested that the Tattered Prince may actually be Maegor - an interesting notion that would actually fit age-wise (the Tattered Prince is 'well past sixty' - and he could easily have joined the Forty Families if he either married a Pentoshi noblewoman or Daenora took a Pentoshi as her second husband after Aerion's death.

That is quite an interesting idea, the Tattered Prince being Maegor would be so cool! He certainly took very seriously Quentyn's offer when he talked about dragons. He didn't take him seriously during the whole conversation, but, in the moment Quentyn mention the dragons, the others kind of laughed but not the Tattered Prince. Besides, if he is Maegor, that "Prince" could be real, not just a name. I guess this is for another thread, but the idea is so good that reminded me of the scene in ADwD. It was the last scene of 'The Spurned Suitor', it is right before 'The Griffin Reborn'. The Tattered Prince was calling Quentyn, Prince Frog. But when Quent talked of dragons, he said he wanted Pentos.

ETA: The board search engine is working perfectly. I like this hypotesis of another dragon in the Dance with Dragons. The tales of D&E says that dragon means Targaryen (or is it the other way around?), so I really like more Dragons in ADwD. I didn't know about this one!!! Awesome!

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