Elia/Rhaegar/Lyanna vs. Arianne/Aegon/Elia

[Chebyshov]

Sorry but I don't see fAegon marrying a bastard. In addition, Arianne has a strong ambition to be the queen. Daemon Sand saw that plain enough for us readers although Arianne was not brave enough to speak that loudly in her POV.

No she doesn't.

I wrote earlier about my thoughts on her relationship with Quentyn. I do understand why some view her disparaging remarks about him as jealousy and an indication that she may want to place herself as queen rather than submit to Quentyn's rule. However, I strongly disagree. Arianne’s difficulty with her brother comes from her entrenched resentment, which cannot be undone easily after 9 years. But goddamn it, she’s trying, and she is trying so hard. I think she’s also legitimately worried about the success of Quentyn’s mission. Being essentially a stranger to him, and also being a woman in a position of power, she might have just been trying to view Quentyn as she’d expect Dany to. No matter how harsh it seems like Arianne is being to her brother, we know from the events of ADWD that she’s basically right about him.

These are complicated factors at play here in the sibling relationship, but none that are indicative of her wish to “steal Quentyn’s throne” by marrying Aegon. Moreover, Arianne has spent her entire adult life trying to figure out ways to secure her birthright of Dorne. She finally has what she wants, so why would she give that up to be Queen in another land, where she would have less power than as ruling Princess of Dorne. In fact, what would her charge be there? Likely feasts and frolics.

One thing that is evident in this chapter is how much Arianne wishes to prove herself to her father. Julia Martell pointed out two things related to this: 1. It is clear that Doran trusts and values Arianne. I do not believe he’s keeping anything from her. I will shout this out of the window of the Spear Tower all night until all Dornish Master Planists hear me, but this father/daughter team are absolutely in this together…no more secrets.

2. Arianne is dying to prove her worth to Doran. And jumping head-first into a dubious alliance is not how she’s going to accomplish this goal. She knows this as well, demonstrated by her continual questioning about Aegon, JonCon, Viserys, and Daenerys. But we see from her continual self-doubt (see Julia’s "Like a drunkard throwing dice" section) that she is still vastly ashamed, and very much wishing to do better...to show Doran that he is not wrong to trust in her, to stand for her despite the great amount of pain he’s in :crying: .

I was going to throw out one more point about why Arianne wouldn’t want to marry Aegon because he is totally not her type, and because we already have one randy teen who I view as more likely to go for him. But this probably isn’t the most compelling point. I personally don’t see Arianne settling for an inexperienced Nilla wafer, and I think it’s much more likely any flirtation on her part will be aimed at JonCon…hopefully passive-aggressively in front of Daemon, who will be doing the exact same thing. And this will be from poor, bemused Jon’s POV. Please?

Now, looking at the narrative, if Arianne doesn’t wish to make herself queen by hooking up with Aegon and disrupting Quentyn’s claim, why were her negative thoughts about him included? Yes, it provides a lot of character insight for Arianne, no question there. But I think that it may also play to her Martell Guilt™ later, and potentially her decisions with this war. If there’s one thing that’s been so consistent about Arianne, it’s that she internalizes everything and takes it as a personal failing.

When Drink and Gerris come with word of Quentyn’s demise, I think Arianne’s guilt will come into sharp relief. Her tepid feelings towards her own brother are clear enough that Daemon picked up on it…something awkward to have pointed out, no doubt. To not have a chance to make amends with him in person? Or to have some of your last thoughts about him be so cold? I’m sure she’ll feel deeply ashamed. Additionally, she will feel terrible for Doran. In this chapter, we see her wishing Aegon was real for Doran's sake alone, despite barely remembering her aunt herself. Her second-hand grief for him is likely to feed her thirst to prove herself to him. He lost a child, and I can see Arianne wanting to make up for this.

Does this mean that she will naturally want to oppose Daenerys? I don’t think necessarily, because I think pitting Aegon against Dany is going to be a complicated situation anyway. Hell, isn’t Aegon like conquering shit in the name of House Targ? He got tired of waiting for her and doesn’t want to be a beggar, but he was never arguing to clash with her, and IIRC, the "plan" is still for an Aegon/Dany union.

However, as far as Arianne/Dorne is concerned, the timing of Gerris and Drink is crucial. Assuming they beat Dany to Westeros, and Arianne is still around Aegon’s camp, I could see her guilt-fueled reaction causing her to link Dorne to Aegon. She may view Dany as a fickle ally at best (especially after hearing about her rejection of Quentyn to marry a slaver half a world away), and here’s Aegon, in the SE with an army and some victories, ready to go. To Arianne, joining Aegon doesn't mean opposing Dany and her dragons, as I'm sure no one would make that decision likely in light of Dorne's history.

...

What this chapter does show, however, is that Arianne and Doran are aligned, Arianne is determined to overcompensate for her perceived QM failings (though Doran views that as his own failing), and her self-deprecatory/guilty nature is almost certainly going to come into play as she’s navigating these murky waters. Let’s just hope Daemon deflates his head a bit so they can fuck and then Arianne will figure this all out with pillow-talk strategy sessions.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

2. Arianne is dying to prove her worth to Doran.

:agree: I doubt saying "look, father, I married a dragon without your consent!" will do great for their relationship.

[Chebyshov]

:agree: I doubt saying "look, father, I married a dragon without your consent!" will do great for their relationship.

Lol, more like "I married a Maybe!Dragon."

If anyone's interested, I also wrote this character retrospective on Arianne, and the first section specifically deals with her complicated relationships to Quentyn and Doran. Part II is on her personality and Part III is why her future (and Dorne's future) is more open-ended than people make it out to be (which includes part of what I quoted above).

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Lol, more like "I married a BabyMaybe!Dragon."

Fixed.

Arianne has retaken his position as heir of Dorne and Doran, she wants her father to be proud of her and trust her. She can't agreed or accept a marriage if Doran doesn't approve it.

Also, her whole mission is very misinterprated. She's there to check if Quentyn has returned. If he's there WITH dragons, then is 'war'. If he's not, and there are no dragons, then 'wait'. There is not alternative indications as "IF Dragon = Targaryen + Army but not Quentyn then...". Considering Quentyn is not there, she will send word of "wait". That's all she needs to do. If she does more, she could fuck up, and she doesn't want to fuck up again.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

She seems to learn, but she has no reason not to, her brother was killed and Aegon is Dorne's best chance. She liked darkstar, a character who was pretty much just a asshole, and Arys, a common sort of man who basically was your average knight.

Or it could work prefectly and actually gives the guy a chance. Elia is a little girl. Aegon isn't Rhaegar who seemingly threw his hot dornish wife away for a tomboy.

Elia is still a little girl who as i remember from the winds bit, is not even a maid.

Elia is fourteen years old.. A fourteen year old girl and an eighteen year old boy... In Westeros, such a match isn't a strange one.

I have no idea what you think i am thinking, but Arianne has no reason to not marry Aegon, the Dany bridge is burnt to the crispy with Quentyn and Aegon is their best shot, why she would not see how him being a good match is beyond me at this point. I still don't see why Aegon would pick Elia or over her at all, again, as i stated in another thread, she is but a little girl.

You stated that Arianne would ignore any "negative qualities" (you voiced it differently) of Aegon, because he looks Valyrian..

Arianne is attacted to pretty boys, sure.. That was pre-Queenmaker plot, and seems to remain the same after the QM plot. But there is no reason to think Arianne will act on it.. And Arianne has no idea what happened to Quentyn, so she can't base her decisions on it..

Aegon might be attracted to her, but that doesn't mean that he will act on it.. He wants his throne, he expects a bride..

[Chebyshov]

She just says that hot, dark, dangerous guys are her weakness...how unique!

First of all Aegon is the opposite of "dark and dangerous." He's leal, young, and inexperienced. As I like to say, he's a Nilla wafer. Secondly, Arianne thinking someone's hot/maybe even sleeping with them is a far cry from getting engaged to them or blindly allying herself with them. She has a healthy sex libido, but it never causes her to lose sight of things. Does she stop the Queenmaking Plot for a quickie with Gerold?

Arianne having "no reason not to marry Aegon" is also silly. 1) She thinks Quentyn is coming back with Dany. 2) Even once she hears of that, Aegon's identity is dubious. 3) All she's wanted is her right to rule Dorne...ruling Princess of Dorne is a far better position than being Queen of Westeros in terms of political power and agency. 4) She wants to live up to her father's expectations of her, which as of now, just involves deciding if Dorne should enter the war on behalf of Elia's son. They've already got a blood-tie, and no real reason why a marriage would be necessary.

The only reason I can think Arianne would want to wed Aegon, is that once word reaches her about Quentyn, she might be so upset on Doran's behalf that she's determined to make some Targ-Martell alliance work, given that both of Doran's went up in flames (one quite literally). But there's a whole lot of "what ifs" and uncertainty about the timing of these events.

[Wmarshal]

Elia is fourteen years old.. A fourteen year old girl and an eighteen year old boy... In Westeros, such a match isn't a strange one.

You stated that Arianne would ignore any "negative qualities" (you voiced it differently) of Aegon, because he looks Valyrian..

Arianne is attacted to pretty boys, sure.. That was pre-Queenmaker plot, and seems to remain the same after the QM plot. But there is no reason to think Arianne will act on it.. And Arianne has no idea what happened to Quentyn, so she can't base her decisions on it..

Aegon might be attracted to her, but that doesn't mean that he will act on it.. He wants his throne, he expects a bride..

Who is not even a maid.

i stated she has a habit of ignoring negative qualities, as she her self said she would marry the biggest asshole out there Gerold.

It makes her queen and puts down back on top, in their old days enjoyed under daeron.

Who is no where to be found and he needs spears. Why exactly would he be so hot and ready for Elia who gives him nothing?

[Chebyshov]

i stated she has a habit of ignoring negative qualities, as she her self said she would marry the biggest asshole out there Gerold.

False. She thinks he's high enough birth to make a "proper consort," but she notes his cruel mouth/tongue and angry eyes. I doubt she'd ever go through with marriage.

[Faint]

Sorry but I don't see fAegon marrying a bastard . . .

It does not even have to rise that, she can simply be his paramour. Although, the idea that Aegon will not do this or that is misguided in the extreme. We are talking about a boy that Tyrion was able to manipulate over a game of cyvasse into making a momentous decision. Personally, I think Aegon is capable of deciding anything and entitled enough to not listen to anybody.

[SeanF]

Fixed.

Arianne has retaken his position as heir of Dorne and Doran, she wants her father to be proud of her and trust her. She can't agreed or accept a marriage if Doran doesn't approve it.

Also, her whole mission is very misinterprated. She's there to check if Quentyn has returned. If he's there WITH dragons, then is 'war'. If he's not, and there are no dragons, then 'wait'. There is not alternative indications as "IF Dragon = Targaryen + Army but not Quentyn then...". Considering Quentyn is not there, she will send word of "wait". That's all she needs to do. If she does more, she could fuck up, and she doesn't want to fuck up again.

Doran may not be alive for much longer. In which case, everything will fall to Arianne.

[Wmarshal]

She just says that hot, dark, dangerous guys are her weakness...how unique!

First of all Aegon is the opposite of "dark and dangerous." He's leal, young, and inexperienced. As I like to say, he's a Nilla wafer. Secondly, Arianne thinking someone's hot/maybe even sleeping with them is a far cry from getting engaged to them or blindly allying herself with them. She has a healthy sex libido, but it never causes her to lose sight of things. Does she stop the Queenmaking Plot for a quickie with Gerold?

Arianne having "no reason not to marry Aegon" is also silly. 1) She thinks Quentyn is coming back with Dany. 2) Even once she hears of that, Aegon's identity is dubious. 3) All she's wanted is her right to rule Dorne...ruling Princess of Dorne is a far better position than being Queen of Westeros in terms of political power and agency. 4) She wants to live up to her father's expectations of her, which as of now, just involves deciding if Dorne should enter the war on behalf of Elia's son. They've already got a blood-tie, and no real reason why a marriage would be necessary.

The only reason I can think Arianne would want to wed Aegon, is that once word reaches her about Quentyn, she might be so upset on Doran's behalf that she's determined to make some Targ-Martell alliance work, given that both of Doran's went up in flames (one quite literally). But there's a whole lot of "what ifs" and uncertainty about the timing of these events.

Aegon is leading claimant of a army of exiles and just took SE. I have not stated she goes complete idiot, just that it is what it is, a good match and he has way more reasons to be attracted to Arianne. Does she seemly ignore Gerold past and admits it herself?

She thinks that the idea of Quentyn becoming king is silly and hard to even imagine, she thinks dany may actually be mad and killed Viserys. That is the whole reason she going to meet him, to see if he is true. How is it better? Her sons would rule the realm and she could even govern as Rhaenys and Visenya did. It would mean Dorne would have a 2/3 martell king, and a stronger tie.

[Wmarshal]

False. She thinks he's high enough birth to make a "proper consort," but she notes his cruel mouth/tongue and angry eyes. I doubt she'd ever go through with marriage.

A consort is a husband, if she meant paramour she would say paramour. I think that is already covered being she never did.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

It does not even have to rise that, she can simply be his paramour. Although, the idea that Aegon will not do this or that is misguided in the extreme. We are talking about a boy that Tyrion was able to manipulate over a game of cyvasse into making a momentous decision. Personally, I think Aegon is capable of deciding anything and entitled enough to not listen to anybody.

That's not true, Aegon does listen to Jon. And Aegon wanting to be more independent happened before the cyvasse game. See here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/118140-aegon-tyrion-and-a-cyvasse-game/

Put yourself in Aegon's shoes. Everybody tells him "you will be the King" while they also tell him to be quiet and go hiding. At some point, Aegon needs to start behaving like the King he's meant to be. Jon won't live forever. That doesn't mean he's going to tell Jon to shut up and listen either. As far as we know, what he told Harry was that he agreed with Jon's plan when he tried to convince him to delay it. The only think he's not agreeing is with being safe while others do the fighting and that makes a lot of sense. Even Jon agreed on him being more participant when he was talking to Lemore.

Aegon is in fact, kind and good natured. He's not arrogant. Jon is. Also, hypocrite. He admitted he himself was like Aegon when he was young, to later almost crack when Aegon suggest leading the attack. Aegon only gets some traits of being spoiled because he has been raised by a very bitter judgemental guy.

[Chebyshov]

A consort is a husband, if she meant paramour she would say paramour. I think that is already covered being she never did.

I'm well aware of what a consort is. She looks at him and thinks, "he's hot, he's highborn enough to be my spouse, and our kids would be cute. But he also has these concerning traits." There's nothing to suggest she'd actually go through with a marriage.

[Wmarshal]

I'm well aware of what a consort is. She looks at him and thinks, "he's hot, he's highborn enough to be my spouse, and our kids would be cute. But he also has these concerning traits." There's nothing to suggest she'd actually go through with a marriage.

There nothing to suggest I brought Gerold up to show she would have married the asshole, she just ignored alot when it came to him, as she admitted. Her uncle thought he should have been put done, she invited him to join a incredible sensitive plot.

[Chebyshov]

There nothing to suggest I brought Gerold up to show she would have married the asshole, she just ignored alot when it came to him, as she admitted. Her uncle thought he should have been put done, she invited him to join a incredible sensitive plot.

She didn't invite him because he was hot. She invited him because he was from an important House she figured Doran couldn't risk upsetting if things went south, and because she needed Darkstar to maybe "destroy Yronwood root and stem" if they attempted to lead the GC/Quentyn against her. Arianne has one of the most self-deprecating narratives in the story. Though she allows herself to think Darkstar "fooled her," it's clear from her observation of his underlying cruelty and anger that he never did. Trusting him to carry out a sensitive plot? Yeah, not the best move. But politically and due to his skill she felt she needed him.

Imo she's going to dance circles around the Griffs. Only Haldon might give her a run for her money in terms of verbal exchanges.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

She didn't invite him because he was hot. She invited him because he was from an important House she figured Doran couldn't risk upsetting if things went south, and because she needed Darkstar to maybe "destroy Yronwood root and stem" if they attempted to lead the GC/Quentyn against her. Arianne has one of the most self-deprecating narratives in the story. Though she allows herself to think Darkstar "fooled her," it's clear from her observation of his underlying cruelty and anger that he never did. Trusting him to carry out a sensitive plot? Yeah, not the best move. But politically and due to his skill she felt she needed him.

Imo she's going to dance circles around the Griffs. Only Haldon might give her a run for her money in terms of verbal exchanges.

Dunno, Old Griff could also give her a few tips about what is to feel guilty and selfdeprecating. They're going to bond with some dornish wine involved about that: "IT WAS TOO MUCH LOVE WHAT KILLED HIM!!!" (this applies to either of them :lol:)

[Wmarshal]

She didn't invite him because he was hot. She invited him because he was from an important House she figured Doran couldn't risk upsetting if things went south, and because she needed Darkstar to maybe "destroy Yronwood root and stem" if they attempted to lead the GC/Quentyn against her. Arianne has one of the most self-deprecating narratives in the story. Though she allows herself to think Darkstar "fooled her," it's clear from her observation of his underlying cruelty and anger that he never did. Trusting him to carry out a sensitive plot? Yeah, not the best move. But politically and due to his skill she felt she needed him.

Imo she's going to dance circles around the Griffs. Only Haldon might give her a run for her money in terms of verbal exchanges.

Did I say she invited him because he was hot? Darkstar was of a cadet house, and someone to be trusted. The only thing Gerold could do is wave his sword and hope his cousin cared enough to help him, their lord is not even home.

Why and how is she going to do that? It would be pointless.

[Pod The Impaler]

Elia is 14, the same age Arianne had sex for the first time. Lyanna was 15 when Rhaegar had sex with her.

Yup. Elia Sand is definitely already flirty.

And if I remember correctly still a maid.

She may be a maid, but that does not mean she wants to stay that way.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Just notice something:

3) All she's wanted is her right to rule Dorne...ruling Princess of Dorne is a far better position than being Queen of Westeros in terms of political power and agency.

Indeed. And, if she wants to keep her position, she should marry Jon.

In normal situations, if JonCon marries Arianne, he would be "upgrading" his status, as he's a Lord and she's the ruling lady of Dorne. But, Jon already has a better position: he's the Hand of the King, which is a better position than both ruler of Dorne and even the Queen herself. That makes them both a bit even.

But also, Jon is dying. He's definitely not making plans of having heirs. His ambition does not involving his children being rulers of Dorne because he knows he won't have them. Besides, he does not need them: there are three more griffins alive (two are male). He knows his House won't carry on through him. He only needs to come clear to Arianne and tell him that in around five years (or even less), she will be free to marry again. In the meantime, she can return and live in Dorne to rule while he's in KL and occasionally visit him (no one has to know what happens behind close doors). I think that's the best deal they both can have.