Elia/Rhaegar/Lyanna vs. Arianne/Aegon/Elia

[In A Coat of Gold]

Aegon's not marrying his cousin. That's just folly, and Aegon has experienced people around him to say so.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Aegon's not marrying his cousin. That's just folly, and Aegon has experienced people around him to say so.

Which one?

[In A Coat of Gold]

Which one?

He's definitely not marrying a bastard. That's for sure.

[Julia Martell]

Did I say she invited him because he was hot? Darkstar was of a cadet house, and someone to be trusted. The only thing Gerold could do is wave his sword and hope his cousin cared enough to help him, their lord is not even home.

Why and how is she going to do that? It would be pointless.

She may have wanted some one a little ruthless, especially if she needed to eliminate some opposition.

And she’s hardly the first person to overestimate how much of a leach she had on a rabid dog:

“Ser Gregor has his uses, as did his brother. Every lord has need of a beast from time to time . . . a lesson you seem to have learned, judging from Ser Bronn and those clansmen of yours.”

...

“Nor did I yet grasp what I had in Gregor Clegane, only that he was huge and terrible in battle. The rape . . . even you will not accuse me of giving that command, I would hope. Ser Amory was almost as bestial with Rhaenys. I asked him afterward why it had required half a hundred thrusts to kill a girl of . . . two? Three? He said she’d kicked him and would not stop screaming. If Lorch had half the wits the gods gave a turnip, he would have calmed her with a few sweet words and used a soft silk pillow.” His mouth twisted in distaste. “The blood was in him.”

And may I recommend my own thoughts about Arianne’s thoughts on Quentyn in her spoiler chapter? It’s the section entitled “King Quentyn”. In a few words: it’s complicated, she has Martell Guilt™.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

He's definitely not marrying a bastard. That's for sure.

She's the bastard daughter of his mother's beloved brother. And Kings can legitimate bastards.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Aegon is leading claimant of a army of exiles and just took SE. I have not stated she goes complete idiot, just that it is what it is, a good match and he has way more reasons to be attracted to Arianne. Does she seemly ignore Gerold past and admits it herself?

She thinks that the idea of Quentyn becoming king is silly and hard to even imagine, she thinks dany may actually be mad and killed Viserys. That is the whole reason she going to meet him, to see if he is true. How is it better? Her sons would rule the realm and she could even govern as Rhaenys and Visenya did. It would mean Dorne would have a 2/3 martell king, and a stronger tie.

Ehm.. No..

Visenya and Rhaenys got to do the every-day-ruling because Aegon I did not wish to do so himself. Ever since, we've seen that every other King either ruled himself, or let his Hand (or regents, in the case of Aegon III), rule for him, when he himself wished not to do so, or could not do so.

So becomming Queen, Arianne would give up every position of power. Yes, her son would inherit a throne, and rule Seven Kingdoms. But that means giving up power for herself. And what has she been trying to achieve for 9 to 10 years? The right to rule Dorne after Doran dies. That has been her drive for close to a decade. She's not suddenly going to give that up...

Who is not even a maid.

i stated she has a habit of ignoring negative qualities, as she her self said she would marry the biggest asshole out there Gerold.

It makes her queen and puts down back on top, in their old days enjoyed under daeron.

Who is no where to be found and he needs spears. Why exactly would he be so hot and ready for Elia who gives him nothing?

Why be attracted to one girl and not to the other? Seriously...

Did Illyrio wonder to himself... "I shouldn't marry this whore, Serra. She adds nothing to my wealth." No, he fell in love, and thus, he married her..

So a statement like "Aegon should feel way more attracted to Arianne than to Elia, because Arianne can command armies, and Elia can't" is a rather strange one to make. (It sounds like this is what you are arguing here).

And Arianne's statement about Gerold seems to have partly slipped from your attention.. Arianne thinks about such a marriage, and the children such a marriage would yield... Yet at the same time, she admidst that it would be folly ("Father would question my good sense"). So she fantasized about it, yet knew that she couldn't, shouldn't, and wouldn't.

And when you are attracted to someone, especially when you are king, does that automatically mean that you will marry the girl? I think not..

[In A Coat of Gold]

She's the bastard daughter of his mother's beloved brother. And Kings can legitimate bastards.

Again, there are experienced people around him that won't allow it. He could go ahead with it anyway. He is King after all, but the negative perceptions of bastards will hurt his propaganda campaign.

[Wmarshal]

Ehm.. No..

Visenya and Rhaenys got to do the every-day-ruling because Aegon I did not wish to do so himself. Ever since, we've seen that every other King either ruled himself, or let his Hand (or regents, in the case of Aegon III), rule for him, when he himself wished not to do so, or could not do so.

So becomming Queen, Arianne would give up every position of power. Yes, her son would inherit a throne, and rule Seven Kingdoms. But that means giving up power for herself. And what has she been trying to achieve for 9 to 10 years? The right to rule Dorne after Doran dies. That has been her drive for close to a decade. She's not suddenly going to give that up...

Why be attracted to one girl and not to the other? Seriously...

Did Illyrio wonder to himself... "I shouldn't marry this whore, Serra. She adds nothing to my wealth." No, he fell in love, and thus, he married her..

So a statement like "Aegon should feel way more attracted to Arianne than to Elia, because Arianne can command armies, and Elia can't" is a rather strange one to make. (It sounds like this is what you are arguing here).

And Arianne's statement about Gerold seems to have partly slipped from your attention.. Arianne thinks about such a marriage, and the children such a marriage would yield... Yet at the same time, she admidst that it would be folly ("Father would question my good sense"). So she fantasized about it, yet knew that she couldn't, shouldn't, and wouldn't.

And when you are attracted to someone, especially when you are king, does that automatically mean that you will marry the girl? I think not..

People still wondering what Serra was origin and all, as to power, Alicent, Alyssa held a great deal influence.

As what Arianne been doing, she was trying to wed Willas.

Elia is a little girl for the life of me I can't find anything attractive about her , but that is me.

It means you would want her and when the other likely won't want him or in time to help him in time it make sense to put a ring on it

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

People still wondering what Serra was origin and all, as to power, Alicent, Alyssa held a great deal influence.

As what Arianne been doing, she was trying to wed Willas.

Elia is a little girl for the life of me I can't find anything attractive about her , but that is me.

It means you would want her and when the other likely won't want him or in time to help him in time it make sense to put a ring on it

Alicent and Alyssa held rather a lot of influence... Aegon is not Viserys I, and Alyssa held her influence when Aenys was dead.

Arianne tried to marry Willas when she was convinced that Doran was trying to pass on his seat to Quentyn. She was trying to make a good match for herself, instead of ending up married to another 80-year old every few years..

As to Elia,

We know nothing about her looks, so we can't really say whether or not she's attractive. She's a 14 year old girl, yes, but in Westeros, that's the age where girls are sexually active all the time. And we know nothing about Aegon's preferences to girls, so no one can judge currently whether Aegon would be more attracted to Arianne or Elia..

I really don't get the point about the Elia discussion... No one is arguing that he's going to marry her... But it is possible that he will be attracted to her. No one ever said that he can't be attracted to Arianne (who knows, perhaps he'll be attracted to both, perhaps he get's nervous around all girls), but Arianne being an attractive woman does not automatically mean that she and Aegon will marry.

Your last sentence, I can't understand what you are trying to say there..

[Wmarshal]

Alicent and Alyssa held rather a lot of influence... Aegon is not Viserys I, and Alyssa held her influence when Aenys was dead.

Arianne tried to marry Willas when she was convinced that Doran was trying to pass on his seat to Quentyn. She was trying to make a good match for herself, instead of ending up married to another 80-year old every few years..

As to Elia,

We know nothing about her looks, so we can't really say whether or not she's attractive. She's a 14 year old girl, yes, but in Westeros, that's the age where girls are sexually active all the time. And we know nothing about Aegon's preferences to girls, so no one can judge currently whether Aegon would be more attracted to Arianne or Elia..

I really don't get the point about the Elia discussion... No one is arguing that he's going to marry her... But it is possible that he will be attracted to her. No one ever said that he can't be attracted to Arianne (who knows, perhaps he'll be attracted to both, perhaps he get's nervous around all girls), but Arianne being an attractive woman does not automatically mean that she and Aegon will marry.

Your last sentence, I can't understand what you are trying to say there..

He is Aegon, and being king gives his queen his ear and able to effect the whole of westeros.

That is the point she would have easily given Dorne goal away if Doran did not make her prospects look horride.

What she described as of now just sounds a bratty little girl, not something I see as attractive, for all I know she is Ashara reborn, as of now nothing points to her being close to Arianne in smarts and beauty.

Arianne is around and can help him, his other choice Dany's is not around.

[SeanF]

I don't think Arianne's story will go anywhere unless she and Aegon become allies. Every major player in Dorne wants war, and the government in Kings Landing is the mutual enemy of Aegon, Jon Con, and the Dornish. I think we can be fairly confident that this is how it will develop in TWOW.

As to whether they'll marry, that's more uncertain, but I detect a note of resentment in Arianne's sample chapter that she lost the chance to marry Viserys, and become Queen. An Arianne who leads an army of 25,000 men could demand a far bigger role in government than simply presiding over feasts and frolics. She'd be much more in the position of someone like Isabella of Castille than a typical Queen consort.

[Chebyshov]

He is Aegon, and being king gives his queen his ear and able to effect the whole of westeros.

That is the point she would have easily given Dorne goal away if Doran did not make her prospects look horride.

What she described as of now just sounds a bratty little girl, not something I see as attractive, for all I know she is Ashara reborn, as of now nothing points to her being close to Arianne in smarts and beauty.

Arianne is around and can help him, his other choice Dany's is not around.

I don't think Arianne was planning on passing on Dorne; in fact she also tried to seduce Renly. The fact that she's tries to arrange marriages to very powerful lords (even crippled ones) was probably so that she'd intimidate Doran into giving up on setting her aside. He wouldn't want to risk war between, say, The Reach and Dorne. She worked 9 years to secure her rights. Giving it up to be someone's #2 and essentially go back to feasts and frolics , especially when her brother is supposedly getting Dany and coming back...it's just not going to happen, not with the situation as it is now.

Besides, the whole reason she's there is because of the claim that this is Elia's son. Dorne would be wedded to Aegon's cause by blood, not marriage, if Arianne determines it's worth it and he's legit. That's her mission. This marriage is officially on no one's mind but Haldon.

[Chebyshov]

I don't think Arianne's story will go anywhere unless she and Aegon become allies. Every major player in Dorne wants war, and the government in Kings Landing is the mutual enemy of Aegon, Jon Con, and the Dornish. I think we can be fairly confident that this is how it will develop in TWOW.

As to whether they'll marry, that's more uncertain, but I detect a note of resentment in Arianne's sample chapter that she lost the chance to marry Viserys, and become Queen. An Arianne who leads an army of 25,000 men could demand a far bigger role in government than simply presiding over feasts and frolics. She'd be much more in the position of someone like Isabella of Castille than a typical Queen consort.

I don't really get any resentment from her at all. If anything, she's empathizing with Dany, given she spent 9 years thinking she was being put aside.

The secret pact that Prince Doran had made all those years called for Arianne to be wed to Prince Viserys, not Quentyn to Daenerys. It had all come undone on the Dothraki sea, when he was murdered. Crowned with a pot of molten gold. "He was killed by a Dothraki khal," said Arianne. "The dragon queen’s own husband."

"So I’ve heard. What of it?"

"Just… why did Daenerys let it happen? Viserys was her brother. All that remained of her own blood."

"The Dothraki are a savage folk. Who can know why they kill? Perhaps Viserys wiped his arse with the wrong hand."

Perhaps, thought Arianne, or perhaps Daenerys realized that once her brother was crowned and wed to me, she would be doomed to spend the rest of her life sleeping in a tent and smelling like a horse.

As for a more proactive Queen Consort, what army is she leading? She'd have to give up her position in Dorne. Had Aerys died and Rhaegar/Elia become king and queen, I somehow doubt she'd have been ordering troops around. Arianne would just become like Myriah.

[Wmarshal]

I don't think Arianne was planning on passing on Dorne; in fact she also tried to seduce Renly. The fact that she's tries to arrange marriages to very powerful lords (even crippled ones) was probably so that she'd intimidate Doran into giving up on setting her aside. He wouldn't want to risk war between, say, The Reach and Dorne. She worked 9 years to secure her rights. Giving it up to be someone's #2 and essentially go back to feasts and frolics , especially when her brother is supposedly getting Dany and coming back...it's just not going to happen, not with the situation as it is now.

Besides, the whole reason she's there is because of the claim that this is Elia's son. Dorne would be wedded to Aegon's cause by blood, not marriage, if Arianne determines it's worth it and he's legit. That's her mission. This marriage is officially on no one's mind but Haldon.

If she believes she could still have powerful husband and rule Dorne, then I don't see why see wouldn't run this idea with Aegon, his second born prince of Dorne. If she just did it to sacry dad and not do it, it makes her legit trying to run away and meet Willas no sense. She still doesn't trust Dany or her marriage past.

And wed to arianne would strength Dorne more and fill Aegon court with Dornish as it did in Daeron's day. No one is thinking of Elia at all.

[Wmarshal]

I don't really get any resentment from her at all. If anything, she's empathizing with Dany, given she spent 9 years thinking she was being put aside.

As for a more proactive Queen Consort, what army is she leading? She'd have to give up her position in Dorne. Had Aerys died and Rhaegar/Elia become king and queen, I somehow doubt she'd have been ordering troops around. Arianne would just become like Myriah.

this looks like resentment, she thinks Dany may be mad and thinks she killed her brother because she thought Arianne would be queen with Viserys at her side.

[Julia Martell]

this looks like resentment, she thinks Dany may be mad and thinks she killed her brother because she thought Arianne would be queen with Viserys at her side.

She’s projecting (she’s very, very good at that). Daenerys removed her brother because she thought that she would end up an obscure, useless nobody in a tent, just like Arianne was prepared to remove Quentyn so she wouldn’t end up a nobody being groped by an old dude. When she’s criticizing Dany, she’s criticizing herself.

[Wmarshal]

She’s projecting (she’s very, very good at that). Daenerys removed her brother because she thought that she would end up an obscure, useless nobody in a tent, just like Arianne was prepared to remove Quentyn so she wouldn’t end up a nobody being groped by an old dude. When she’s criticizing Dany, she’s criticizing herself.

I am reading the paasage and that coupled with her believing she may be mad doesn't look like projecting. She doesn't connect Quentyn to viserys.

[Chebyshov]

If she believes she could still have powerful husband and rule Dorne, then I don't see why see wouldn't run this idea with Aegon, his second born prince of Dorne. If she just did it to sacry dad and not do it, it makes her legit trying to run away and meet Willas no sense. She still doesn't trust Dany or her marriage past.

And wed to arianne would strength Dorne more and fill Aegon court with Dornish as it did in Daeron's day. No one is thinking of Elia at all.

Her children would not be heirs to Dorne. If she became Queen of Westeros, she'd give up all rights to Dorne. If she married literally anyone else, her kids would be the heirs to Dorne, because being the ruling Prince(ss) of Dorne outranks liege lord of the other kingdoms.

If she "doesn't trust Dany," (rather, doesn't know anything about her and is trying to figure out her motivations), then why in seven hells would she trust Aegon? His incredibly dubious identity is one of the major points of discussion.

I have no idea what you mean by the bolded, but as I said, she still thinks DanyxQuentyn is on the table so her marrying Aegon wouldn't "strengthen the court more." It would foil Quentyn/Doran's arrangements, which is something she is not wont to do.

I am reading the paasage and that coupled with her believing she may be mad doesn't look like projecting. She doesn't connect Quentyn to viserys.

She literally spent 9 years living with the very real and present threat of being set aside, doomed to spend the rest of her life in some lower castle with an octogenarian for a husband. I don't think everything needs to be spoon-fed here.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Her children would not be heirs to Dorne. If she became Queen of Westeros, she'd give up all rights to Dorne. If she married literally anyone else, her kids would be the heirs to Dorne, because being the ruling Prince(ss) of Dorne outranks liege lord of the other kingdoms.

What about her second born child? Couldn't her firstborn be Prince/Princess of Dragonstone, and her secondborn be heir to Dorne?

I have no idea what you mean by the bolded, but as I said, she still thinks DanyxQuentyn is on the table so her marrying Aegon wouldn't "strengthen the court more." It would foil Quentyn/Doran's arrangements, which is something she is not wont to do.

I think this is the key anyways. If she is under the impression that the QuentynxDany deal is still ongoing, then she will not undermine the previous plan by creating a new one with an ally whose intentions to another potential ally is unknown. And I agree that Arianne probably wants to be Princess of Dorne more than Queen of Westeros. Why be second fiddle when you can be leader of the band? Think of all she'd have to give up living in KL. Bleh.

[Wmarshal]

Her children would not be heirs to Dorne. If she became Queen of Westeros, she'd give up all rights to Dorne. If she married literally anyone else, her kids would be the heirs to Dorne, because being the ruling Prince(ss) of Dorne outranks liege lord of the other kingdoms.

If she "doesn't trust Dany," (rather, doesn't know anything about her and is trying to figure out her motivations), then why in seven hells would she trust Aegon? His incredibly dubious identity is one of the major points of discussion.

I have no idea what you mean by the bolded, but as I said, she still thinks DanyxQuentyn is on the table so her marrying Aegon wouldn't "strengthen the court more." It would foil Quentyn/Doran's arrangements, which is something she is not wont to do.

She literally spent 9 years living with the very real and present threat of being set aside, doomed to spend the rest of her life in some lower castle with an octogenarian for a husband. I don't think everything needs to be spoon-fed here.

That is if her husband the king could not just declare her second born prince of Dorne post his mother's death. How does being the wife of the lord of the reach gives her the ability to still hold rights but wife of the king, she just has to throw it away?

Because unlike dany she heard nothing of him murdering his brothers. Of which she can neither disprove or really prove, he has Jon a close friend to house Targ to back him.

She still thinks Dany could be mad and Quentyn as dull as one gets, unless Dany somehow keeps word of Quentyn death held tight until she is in a room with Arianne and Doran, it is going to get out.

And in no way contacts it at all to Quentyn or her. You act as if she going on a long tangent on how Dany and her are one person, she is thinking of how she probably murdered her brother to keep power in a talk on whether dany is mad or not.