R+L=J v.117

[DragonDreamer]

The fact is that Ned thinks the former KG shining examples of what it takes to be KG, and names Arthur Dayne as a paragon of KGhood. That is only possible if Dayne died true to his KG vow, and the core part of the vow, the first duty per Barristan, is to protect the king. If Dayne followed Rhaegar's order while leaving the king unprotected, then he was not a shining example of KG.

ETA: I am trying to say that if you remain chaste, win no glory, obey every order and keep the secrets but DON'T protect the king, you can hardly be considered a shining example of KG - whereas if you break any of the former but still protect the king (or even break them to protect the king) and give your life for his, then you are an admirable KG.

I think that an assumption on your part of what Ned would have thought. Obeying order is also an integral part of their duty and Ned would have admired them for that even if he was about to fight them. The fact is what we learn from Ned is a dream and we don't know the facts or even if those were the actual words used*.

*I'm sure the conversation is condensed for the dream but mostly accurate.

[DragonDreamer]

However, the one thing I am sure of is that Jon is the fruit of R+L and that he is legitimate, at least as far as Rhaegar and Lyanna were concerned.

I think he's a bastard but I can agree with the bolded part or at least the intention of it. Even if Jon were legitimate, proving it would be the real problem. But I don't want to open that can or warms again. :)

[sj4iy]

As far as the clarification of the 'vows' they swore, this is probably the best:

Five had been his brothers. Oswell Whent and Jon Darry. Lewyn Martell, a prince of Dorne. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning. And beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne.

“You don’t frighten me,” he called, turning as they split to either side of him. He did not know which way to face. “I will fight you one by one or all together. But who is there for the wench to duel? She gets cross when you leave her out.”

“I swore an oath to keep him safe,” she said to Rhaegar’s shade. “I swore a holy oath.”

“We all swore oaths,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly.


The shades dismounted from their ghostly horses. When they drew their longswords, it made not a sound. “He was going to burn the city,” Jaime said. “To leave Robert only ashes.” “He was your king,” said Darry.

“You swore to keep him safe,” said Whent.

“And the children, them as well,” said Prince Lewyn.

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. “I left my wife and children in your hands.”

“I never thought he’d hurt them.” Jaime’s sword was burning less brightly now. “I was with the king...

“Killing the king,” said Ser Arthur.

“Cutting his throat,” said Prince Lewyn.

“The king you had sworn to die for,” said the White Bull.

The passage only BEATS it into the reader that the KG swore an oath to keep the king safe.

[BearQueen87]

As far as the clarification of the 'vows' they swore, this is probably the best:

Five had been his brothers. Oswell Whent and Jon Darry. Lewyn Martell, a prince of Dorne. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning. And beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne.

“You don’t frighten me,” he called, turning as they split to either side of him. He did not know which way to face. “I will fight you one by one or all together. But who is there for the wench to duel? She gets cross when you leave her out.”

“I swore an oath to keep him safe,” she said to Rhaegar’s shade. “I swore a holy oath.”

“We all swore oaths,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly.


The shades dismounted from their ghostly horses. When they drew their longswords, it made not a sound. “He was going to burn the city,” Jaime said. “To leave Robert only ashes.” “He was your king,” said Darry.

“You swore to keep him safe,” said Whent.

“And the children, them as well,” said Prince Lewyn.

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. “I left my wife and children in your hands.”

“I never thought he’d hurt them.” Jaime’s sword was burning less brightly now. “I was with the king...

“Killing the king,” said Ser Arthur.

“Cutting his throat,” said Prince Lewyn.

“The king you had sworn to die for,” said the White Bull.

You. I like you.

[sabrecmc]

I want to say that the World book described Dayne as the most chivalrous, which seems a bit different of an impression than I kind of had of him based on Ned's thoughts. Granted, that is one maester's take on it, but still. To me, the lynchpin isn't Dayne, but Hightower. Just don't think he'd have left Viserys to Darry if he had any thought that V was king. He's the one who reminds Jamie that they swore a "vow to guard the king, not to judge him" (that's from memory, but I think that is right) after watching the thing with Rickard and Brandon. So, that tells me that he feels his oath was to guard the king. I think we have to read that statement to Jamie into his statement to Ned that the KG do not flee.

[Ygrain]

I think that an assumption on your part of what Ned would have thought. Obeying order is also an integral part of their duty and Ned would have admired them for that even if he was about to fight them. The fact is what we learn from Ned is a dream and we don't know the facts or even if those were the actual words used*.

*I'm sure the conversation is condensed for the dream but mostly accurate.

Are you implying that Ned would have thought AD an exemplary KG because he was obeying orders while his king was chilling out at Dragonstone while being the most wanted head in Westeros? Excuse me if I find it hard to believe - especially if we have a precedens of someone breaking parts of his vows while remaining true to the main part of the vow, and that no other than Jon.

As for the dream sequence:

We have Ned's memories which correlate with the dream, as well as dreaming on another occasion:

He dreamt an old dream,

He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.

of three knights in white cloaks,

Three men in white cloaks, he thought, remembering, and a strange chill went through him.

and a tower long fallen,

Ned had pulled the tower down afterward,

and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

“Lord Eddard,” Lyanna called again.

“I promise,” he whispered. “Lya, I promise …”

Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned.

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood.

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life.

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life.

Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns

They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed

He dreamt an old dream

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life

He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years

In other words: he had had the dream before, many times, in years. He directly confirms parts of the dream as faithfully reflecting reality, and after he wakes up, he elaborates on the details of the event:

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory’s father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.

Ser Boros Blount guarded the far end of the bridge, white steel armor ghostly in the moonlight. Within, Ned passed two other knights of the Kingsguard; Ser Preston Greenfield stood at the bottom of the steps, and Ser Barristan Selmy waited at the door of the king’s bedchamber. Three men in white cloaks, he thought, remembering, and a strange chill went through him.

[DragonDreamer]

As far as the clarification of the 'vows' they swore, this is probably the best:

Five had been his brothers. Oswell Whent and Jon Darry. Lewyn Martell, a prince of Dorne. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning. And beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne.

“You don’t frighten me,” he called, turning as they split to either side of him. He did not know which way to face. “I will fight you one by one or all together. But who is there for the wench to duel? She gets cross when you leave her out.”

“I swore an oath to keep him safe,” she said to Rhaegar’s shade. “I swore a holy oath.”

“We all swore oaths,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly.


The shades dismounted from their ghostly horses. When they drew their longswords, it made not a sound. “He was going to burn the city,” Jaime said. “To leave Robert only ashes.” “He was your king,” said Darry.

“You swore to keep him safe,” said Whent.

“And the children, them as well,” said Prince Lewyn.

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. “I left my wife and children in your hands.”

“I never thought he’d hurt them.” Jaime’s sword was burning less brightly now. “I was with the king...

“Killing the king,” said Ser Arthur.

“Cutting his throat,” said Prince Lewyn.

“The king you had sworn to die for,” said the White Bull.

The passage only BEATS it into the reader that the KG swore an oath to keep the king safe.

How does this exclude their other oaths, it's not an either or. This quote is mostly relevant because of what Jaime did, which was killing the king.

[Ygrain]

As far as the clarification of the 'vows' they swore, this is probably the best:

Five had been his brothers. Oswell Whent and Jon Darry. Lewyn Martell, a prince of Dorne. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning. And beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne.

“You don’t frighten me,” he called, turning as they split to either side of him. He did not know which way to face. “I will fight you one by one or all together. But who is there for the wench to duel? She gets cross when you leave her out.”

“I swore an oath to keep him safe,” she said to Rhaegar’s shade. “I swore a holy oath.”

“We all swore oaths,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly.


The shades dismounted from their ghostly horses. When they drew their longswords, it made not a sound. “He was going to burn the city,” Jaime said. “To leave Robert only ashes.” “He was your king,” said Darry.

“You swore to keep him safe,” said Whent.

“And the children, them as well,” said Prince Lewyn.

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. “I left my wife and children in your hands.”

“I never thought he’d hurt them.” Jaime’s sword was burning less brightly now. “I was with the king...

“Killing the king,” said Ser Arthur.

“Cutting his throat,” said Prince Lewyn.

“The king you had sworn to die for,” said the White Bull.

The passage only BEATS it into the reader that the KG swore an oath to keep the king safe.

The "protect and die" part is actually repeated pretty frequently throughout the series, again as the duty. Pretty funny that if Jon was king, AD did just that, right?

[sj4iy]

How does this exclude their other oaths, it's not an either or. This quote is mostly relevant because of what Jaime did, which was killing the king.

I didn't say it excluded anything.

But this is definitely their first and foremost oath and concern.

And it's why Jaime is so haunted by it. Moreso than any of the other oaths about honoring family (HA).

[markg171]

But tell me this one thing: What does "fleeing" mean in this context? What (or rather, whom) are they abandoning by fleeing?

And why didn't they split up their forces to both protect Viserys (or Aegon, if that floats your boat) and follow their order by Rhaegar (not the king, btw...)?

They're abandoning Lyanna if they flee. The fact of books is Lyanna is in the tower. You guys have come to interpret that there is someone else there, indicating a new king. You may suggest that they are there for that reason, but they are there to protect Lyanna. Lyanna cannot be king so why are they still there and why can't they just let Eddard take Lyanna?

Eddard is there for Lyanna. If she gave birth to a new king, why stay at the Tower instead of taking the baby and fleeing somewhere more defensible and less obvious? The Kingsguard note that they are there because they swore a vow not to flee. The fact that they're still there even after this new king is allegedly born, suggests that they are there because of Lyanna, not any potential baby. Lyanna is the one who is immobile, not the baby. It's therefore Lyanna Rhaegar asked them to protect otherwise they would let Eddard take her, and it's Lyanna they are there to protect otherwise they would be gone. If you're trying to protect the king, staying where you know your enemies will come looking for you is stupid. If on the other hand your job is to guard a woman in a tower, your job is to stay.

Not to mention the Kingsguard are found outside the tower. When GRRM is guarding prisoners in towers, he posts guards outside. Everything says they are there for Lyanna.

[The guy from the Vale]

But why would Lyanna be somebody included in their oaths?

...and I solemny swear I will guard the crown prince's prisoners even if the king is unguarded.

The thing, to me, is not that they might be guarding the tower because of an order. I can see that. But there are three of them there, and besides the hypothetical order to guard the tower, they also have a duty to protect the king. If Jon is not legitimate, Viserys is their king. But neither do they correct Ned when he calls Viserys "prince", not do they send even one of them to him. Again, if one of these three go to Viserys to protect him, the ToJ is still guarded by the other two, making them fulfill both parts of their vow. But they don't do that... which suggests to me that on top of possibly following an order, they are guarding the king anyway.

[UnmaskedLurker]

It's like you're being purposely dense and ignoring any evidence that I posted. How can you possibly look at this

Which talks about fleeing, and come to the conclusion that they are talking about how they swore a vow when they donned the white cloak. They're clearly talking how they didn't flee when Viserys did and aren't now, and Whent explains it's because they swore a vow

This issue is one that I have given quite a bit of thought because at first I read it in a way that was similar to what you are suggesting. But I think you need to consider the context even more closely. The key really is the word "flee" as you suggest. So when discussing not going to Viserys when he first went to Dragonstone (not fleeing "then"), I think most everyone would agree what is meant. To go to Dragonstone while the King is still alive and in Westeros in the middle of a civil war would be fleeing (unless perhaps specifically ordered by the King to go there). But that is not really the issue--the issue is what the KG mean by not fleeing "now."

If you assume that Jon is not considered to be the King by the KG, then after everyone in the royal family is dead other than Rhaella and Viserys (Dany is not born yet), going to Dragonstone to be with them simply is not fleeing. If someone is a member of the KG, how can that person say that going to the only living Targ royalty left is fleeing? It is a nonsense statement. Now the counter argument that others have made is that the KG swore a vow to Rhaegar before he died to guard his mistress and bastard child, and so keeping that vow is required while leaving them behind would be fleeing. I hear that argument but just don't think it really makes sense given the primary purpose of the KG is to keep the king safe. WOIAF makes it clear that the basic reason the KG were established at all was to keep the king from being killed (Visenya has to convince Aegon I that he needs personal body guards who are specially trained to keep him safe). Asserting that going to the new Targ heir to the throne would be fleeing, given the central purpose of the KG is to keep the king safe, simply is nonsensical to me.

So in that context, the reference to "fleeing now" can only mean that the KG do not consider Viserys to be king but rather consider Jon to be king. For that to be the case, however, I believe Rhaegar and Lyanna must have been married.

[markg171]

As far as the clarification of the 'vows' they swore, this is probably the best:

Five had been his brothers. Oswell Whent and Jon Darry. Lewyn Martell, a prince of Dorne. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning. And beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne.

“You don’t frighten me,” he called, turning as they split to either side of him. He did not know which way to face. “I will fight you one by one or all together. But who is there for the wench to duel? She gets cross when you leave her out.”

“I swore an oath to keep him safe,” she said to Rhaegar’s shade. “I swore a holy oath.”

“We all swore oaths,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly.


The shades dismounted from their ghostly horses. When they drew their longswords, it made not a sound. “He was going to burn the city,” Jaime said. “To leave Robert only ashes.” “He was your king,” said Darry.

“You swore to keep him safe,” said Whent.

“And the children, them as well,” said Prince Lewyn.

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. “I left my wife and children in your hands.”

“I never thought he’d hurt them.” Jaime’s sword was burning less brightly now. “I was with the king...

“Killing the king,” said Ser Arthur.

“Cutting his throat,” said Prince Lewyn.

“The king you had sworn to die for,” said the White Bull.

The passage only BEATS it into the reader that the KG swore an oath to keep the king safe.

No the passage beats it into the reader that Jaime swore an oath to keep the king safe, which we know he disobeyed. Jaime wasn't asked to protect Rhaegar at the Trident, nor was he asked by Rhaegar to defend the Tower of Joy. Jaime's oaths were only to protect the king and obey (hence why he stays in King's Landing despite wanting to ride with Rhaegar to the Trident). Ned's dream suggests that Dayne, Hightower, and Whent swore another vow.

[Ygrain]

...and now I'd much like to hear a plausible scenario how the three KG grab a newborn and travel somewhere. I am especially interested in the logistics of feeding and caring for the baby, where is that "somewhere" and how they get there while keeping both their identity and the baby secret. I would also like to hear why it is necessary to abandon ASAP the location which, prior Ned's arrival, was found by exactly one person, instead of preparing a new hideout as well as the passage and then move when they are ready.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Because that sounds bitchy? Look, I'm not saying that people can't object to RLJ or even to RL = Legit J. I'm saying that it's been done to death so instead of people thinking that they are presenting new evidence (which they never are) maybe ask "why do you think XYZ" and have it explained and then they go from there. Literally, all of this has been done before. It's the same quotes, the same "evidence" over and over. Barristan's quotes, the vow, the TOJ scene, over and over. I think a majority of the regulars here would love to talk about something else instead of doing The KG, legitimacy, and even just RLJ in general.

Really? But I included the word "please"...

Speaking as one who raises objections every now and then, I have to say that a polite request up front would be much preferable to the "pile-it-on" scorn and abuse that appears to be the current method of sending that same message to newcomers. It would be a clearer way of communicating, and it would make the community look better in general, if it helped eliminate the sarcasm, the comic sans, and the personal attacks.

I honestly believe most newcomers come with genuine questions, and would like to discuss. Some objections are more casual, others more probing or tightly held. But if the way to prove a "well thought out" objection is simply to persist and endure any abusive criticism leveled by regulars in this thread on behalf of "the majority"... then the community discourages new users interested in respectful dialogue, and encourages the sort of disrespectful tone that attracts flamers and trolls. So a comment like this:

It's like you're being purposely dense and ignoring any evidence that I posted.

...doesn't look at all out of place in these threads, and could have been leveled by either side.

(On the other hand... maybe that's the style of debate RLJ wants. Sometimes it's fun to insult and be insulted, I guess.)

Oh easy, I read the books. :) (i've read your theory. we've talked about it. I don't buy it)

Damn. Oh well. It was worth a try... :cool4:

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

The fact is that Ned thinks the former KG shining examples of what it takes to be KG, and names Arthur Dayne as a paragon of KGhood. That is only possible if Dayne died true to his KG vow, and the core part of the vow, the first duty per Barristan, is to protect the king. If Dayne followed Rhaegar's order while leaving the king unprotected, then he was not a shining example of KG.

ETA: I am trying to say that if you remain chaste, win no glory, obey every order and keep the secrets but DON'T protect the king, you can hardly be considered a shining example of KG - whereas if you break any of the former but still protect the king (or even break them to protect the king) and give your life for his, then you are an admirable KG.

But Dayne didn't leave the King unprotected, Jaime was left with the King. He is even called their false brother. They did not know what Jaime would do, nor what provoked him to do so. No one did. He was judged without regard to the why of it by everyone. Clearly the KG at the TOJ were aware of what Jaime had done before Ned confronted them. There was communication between the TOJ & KL.

[markg171]

But why would Lyanna be somebody included in their oaths?

...and I solemny swear I will guard the crown prince's prisoners even if the king is unguarded.

The thing, to me, is not that they might be guarding the tower because of an order. I can see that. But there are three of them there, and besides the hypothetical order to guard the tower, they also have a duty to protect the king. If Jon is not legitimate, Viserys is their king. But neither do they correct Ned when he calls Viserys "prince", not do they send even one of them to him. Again, if one of these three go to Viserys to protect him, the ToJ is still guarded by the other two, making them fulfill both parts of their vow. But they don't do that... which suggests to me that on top of possibly following an order, they are guarding the king anyway.

So why do they die for Lyanna? Eddard is there for her, not any child. He wants Lyanna and they do not let him.

[The guy from the Vale]

But Dayne didn't leave the King unprotected, Jaime was left with the King. He is even called their false brother. They did not know what Jaime would do, nor what provoked him to do so. No one did. He was judged without regard to the why of it by everyone. Clearly the KG at the TOJ were aware of what Jaime had done before Ned confronted them. There was communication between the TOJ & KL.

Dayne did leave king Viserys unprotected. Unless Viserys wasn't king, and the real king was at the tower. And before anyone here argues Aegon was there, Ned defeated Aegon, and Ned thinks Aegon is dead, so...

[markg171]

...and now I'd much like to hear a plausible scenario how the three KG grab a newborn and travel somewhere. I am especially interested in the logistics of feeding and caring for the baby, where is that "somewhere" and how they get there while keeping both their identity and the baby secret. I would also like to hear why it is necessary to abandon ASAP the location which, prior Ned's arrival, was found by exactly one person, instead of preparing a new hideout as well as the passage and then move when they are ready.

This is literally what you suggest Ned must have done if he found Jon. Yet you have no problem assuming he could manage it, but not the 3 Kingsguard members.

[The guy from the Vale]

So why do they die for Lyanna? Eddard is there for her, not any child. He wants Lyanna and they do not let him.

Because Lyanna has just given birth, a secret they want to hide. Because the Targ king's best protection is secrecy, at that time.