R+L=J v.117

[Ygrain]

But Dayne didn't leave the King unprotected, Jaime was left with the King. He is even called their false brother. They did not know what Jaime would do, nor what provoked him to do so. No one did. He was judged without regard to the why of it by everyone. Clearly the KG at the TOJ were aware of what Jaime had done before Ned confronted them. There was communication between the TOJ & KL.

Jaime was left with King Aerys. As of the time when Ned arrives at ToJ, Viserys is king, has no KG with him and Dayne+Whent+Hightower are well aware of the fact. If Viserys is king, all three of them are in dereliction of duty to Viserys, unless Viserys is not king.

[markg171]

Dayne did leave king Viserys unprotected. Unless Viserys wasn't king, and the real king was at the tower. And before anyone here argues Aegon was there, Ned defeated Aegon, and Ned thinks Aegon is dead, so...

Viserys wasn't king because Robert was. The real king was in King's Landing.

[The guy from the Vale]

Viserys wasn't king because Robert was. The real king was in King's Landing.

They call Robert the usurper when talking to Ned. When Ned offers them to swear fealty to Robert, they decline ("our knees do not bend so easily"). Barristan considers his choice to be dishonorable, and I guess Hightower would see it the same way. No, these Kingsguard still have a king, and it is not Robert - but apparently, it isn't Viserys either.

[Black Crow]

Jaime was left with King Aerys. As of the time when Ned arrives at ToJ, Viserys is king, has no KG with him and Dayne+Whent+Hightower are well aware of the fact. If Viserys is king, all three of them are in dereliction of duty to Viserys, unless Viserys is not king.

That rather comes back to my contention that the tower speech is about their acknowledgement that by following orders they have failed in their duty. It was Ser Willem Darry, "a good man and true...but not of the Kings Guard" who took Viserys to Dragonstone and beyond, simply because there was no-one else available. One of them should have done it, but per GRRM they were obeying orders and that's why they respond as they do to Ned rather than simply saying "our king is here."

[RumHam]

BearQueen87, on 03 Dec 2014 - 11:28 PM, said:

Wow almost to 117. That was fast. Any chance next thread we could talk about something NOT "defense of RLJ" and "polygamy! legal, illegal, gray?"

For the record, there were only five mentions of polygamy in the entire last thread. (Including the first post F.A.Q., which I still think should be changed because we don't know for a fact that "Polygamy was never made illegal.") Two of them were yours! :)

Edit: apparently you can't link to search results.

[JNR]

per GRRM they were obeying orders and that's why they respond as they do to Ned rather than simply saying "our king is here."

Agreed, and that interview quote is so plain and direct:

Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."

...that it's an ongoing wonder to me people still debate this topic a decade later.

It's also peculiar to see the frequent refrain that the ToJ KG had no idea what had happened at the Trident until the Sack was over. This simply cannot be established from the books; it is nothing but a convenient assumption. Yet it's constantly trotted out in the forums by those who need it to explain why those KG made no attempt to guard Aerys... the very king to whom they had sworn their vow... when he was in obvious mortal peril.

[markg171]

Agreed, and that interview quote is so plain and direct:

...that it's an ongoing wonder to me people still debate this topic a decade later.

It's also peculiar to see the frequent refrain that the ToJ KG had no idea what had happened at the Trident until the Sack was over. This simply cannot be established from the books; it is nothing but a convenient assumption. Yet it's constantly trotted out in the forums by those who need it to explain why those KG made no attempt to guard Aerys... the very king to whom they had sworn their vow... when he was in obvious mortal peril.

So wait, let me get this straight.

The books not only tells us they were following orders and everything in the text supports this, and Martin himself also confirmed it? Yet people still argue otherwise? Lol.

[Ygrain]

That rather comes back to my contention that the tower speech is about their acknowledgement that by following orders they have failed in their duty. It was Ser Willem Darry, "a good man and true...but not of the Kings Guard" who took Viserys to Dragonstone and beyond, simply because there was no-one else available. One of them should have done it, but per GRRM they were obeying orders and that's why they respond as they do to Ned rather than simply saying "our king is here."

BS. They state explicitely that it is not what they would have done because smuggling snotty princes while the king is in danger is not the way of the KG.

Agreed, and that interview quote is so plain and direct:

...that it's an ongoing wonder to me people still debate this topic a decade later.

It's also peculiar to see the frequent refrain that the ToJ KG had no idea what had happened at the Trident until the Sack was over. This simply cannot be established from the books; it is nothing but a convenient assumption. Yet it's constantly trotted out in the forums by those who need it to explain why those KG made no attempt to guard Aerys... the very king to whom they had sworn their vow... when he was in obvious mortal peril.

We all assume that due to the location of ToJ, they had poor internet connection and their cellphones had no signal, therefore they had to rely on snailmail which wasn't being delivered very often, either. Of course, we may all be wrong and the KG did possess some means of insta communication and travel, due to their connection to the Spaghetti Flying Monster and Starship Enterprise and they could feel the disturbances in the Force, as well.

[WhiteOwl18]

We all assume that due to the location of ToJ, they had poor internet connection and their cellphones had no signal, therefore they had to rely on snailmail which wasn't being delivered very often, either. Of course, we may all be wrong and the KG did possess some means of insta communication and travel, due to their connection to the Spaghetti Flying Monster and Starship Enterprise and they could feel the disturbances in the Force, as well.

:lmao: :bowdown: Loved it!

[Ygrain]

:lmao: :bowdown: Loved it!

That's about the only positive outcome of the post I went out of my way to respond to. Thanks.

[Avalatis]

So wait, let me get this straight.

The books not only tells us they were following orders and everything in the text supports this, and Martin himself also confirmed it? Yet people still argue otherwise? Lol.

The quote of Martin stated: "They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family," as well as follow orders. The following orders makes sense for Hightower as there was no reason for him to remain at the TOJ after he had found Rhaegar. But when it became clear that Viserys (the supposed new King, which Rhaegar never was) was alone and in danger Hightower should have had at least *one* KG go to him.

Needless to say Martin didn't confirm they were *only* following orders. As he included the other parts in that response. If he had just stated "I won't answer that" or "They swore to protect the king" that would have spoiled his mystery.

[UnmaskedLurker]

So wait, let me get this straight.

The books not only tells us they were following orders and everything in the text supports this, and Martin himself also confirmed it? Yet people still argue otherwise? Lol.

Because that excuse is obviously a "red herring" that does not stand up to scrutiny. Technically, Martin is being consistent with the book by saying they were following Rhaegar's orders. Just like "officially" Jon would be Ned's son. If GRRM says anything else, he is confirming a huge mystery that he is not ready to reveal. An SSM needs to be read in context, and in this context, it is clear that GRRM would make this statement no matter what because no other statement would preserve the mystery. But if the larger context of what the KG say is taken into account, that excuse does not wash.

[The guy from the Vale]

Again, the question is not why some of them were at the tower. The question is why ALL OF THEM were there when they could have split up to see to their variopus duties. THis suggests to me that there was no discrepancy in their duties - they could follow Rhaegar's orders AND protect the king at the same time, by being in the same place.

[J. Stargaryen]

Oh, this again.

Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."

How did you confirm that?

The onus is not on BQ87 to prove a negative. The onus is on you to provide evidence that there is any merit at all to the notion of Aegon being at the ToJ.

Just out of curiosity, what exactly are those legitimate objections?

I'm fine with people who disagree and want to discuss it over. I'm even fine with people who have a different theory and want to debate.

I dislike people who refuse to be swayed by a mountain of evidence and are merely in this thread to antagonize.

:crickets:

[Black Crow]

So why go through all that exchange if all they had to do was say we are protecting the King, and if coming out with that spoiler would ruin everything [and it would] why insert that passage in the first place?

[Ygrain]

The books not only tells us they were following orders

Wrong. The books say nothing about the ToJ trio following orders. The books say that the first and foremost duty of the KG is to protect the king and die for him if need be.

everything in the text supports this

Wrong. See above.

and Martin himself also confirmed it?

Wrong. See J.Stargaryen's post.

[MtnLion]

By the time that the Kingsguard at the tower hear the news of Aerys' peril because Rhaegar had been slain and the armies dispersed, King's Landing had already fallen. There are no ravens to the tower, it is abandoned when Rhaegar takes up residence. The only way to get news is from travelers and it is weeks to a communication center which would have more timely news.

So, what do we have. Jaime is left with Aerys and the gold cloaks and men at arms within the red keep which is also within King's Landing. Two layers of castle protecting the king, and several hostages to ensure the comport of his allies. Rhaegar takes three Kingsguard with him to the Trident, and had sent Dayne and Whent back to the tower when he arrived at King's Landing. Nothing interesting here, it seems like a good dispersal, no reason for Hightower to fret. Hightower is guarding Rhaegar's royal family (near term Lyanna) at the tower while Whent and Dayne make the return journey.

Rhaegar and three Kingsguard go and get their asses kicked at the Trident. Oops. Aerys sends Rhaella and Viserys to Dragonstone for their safety (they probably aren't as fireproof as he thinks that they need to be). No Kingsguard to send with them, so he sends Willem Darry his master at arms. Jaime is not going to flee with Rhaella and Viserys, he has sworn a vow to protect and defend his king, dying for him if need be. (Read Ned's memories of Jaime's vow at Harrenhal. Read Ned's thoughts about Jaime when King's Landing has fallen.)

King's Landing falls. Jaime is ordered to bring his father's head to Aerys. Jaime kills Aerys rather than die for him. The Lannisters slaughter the royal family in the Red Keep and offer the bodies to Robert as gifts of loyalty. Robert forgives Jaime for breaking his vow to protect and defend the king, dying for him if need be. Ned erupts over Robert's lack of outrage over the Lannister's disregard for honor, Jaime's and Tywin's. Jon Arryn manages to prevent the war that was threatening to breakout between Ned and Robert, and sends Ned to take care of the final battles of the rebellion.

After lifting the siege at Storm's End, Ned assembles a small party. He takes this small party directly to the tower, and it seems that he must know where Lyanna is. That information can be from most anyone, two members of the party stand out:

• Howland Reed
  
• Ethan Glover
  

Howland is not a fighter, nor is he likely to be much of a horseman, even after a year riding with Ned. He does have a debt to Lyanna, especially if she is the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

Ethan has been in the dungeon at the Red Keep since before the Robellion. He is not likely to be fit to travel, let alone be in a fight. Having been in the dungeon, and being loyal to the Starks does make him a good candidate to carry a discrete message from Rhaegar concerning Lyanna to any Stark leader.

So, we arrive at the tower, and the conversation does not reveal any surprises to the Kingsguard. They have heard the news, but it has been untimely, they were never in a position to act on the news. They would not have fled their king, when King Aerys sent Rhaella and Viserys to Dragonstone. They will not flee their king, now. Their king is the new born Jon. (This is the message the GRRM is sending, and it is all hints, but it is plain).

No, it is a very short time between Jaime and Jonothor Darry guarding the king, while he rapes Rhaella, the night that the king had roasted Chelsted because of his objections to the wildfire plot; and when King's Landing Falls. It is likely to be only a fortnight, as that is the time that Jaime reflects of Rossart being the replacement Hand. Too short of a time for news of the Trident to reach those at the tower early enough for them to do anything about it. (Ned is chasing the remnants of the loyalists back to King's Landing, as quickly as he can.)

[Ygrain]

Has Ethan Glover been confirmed to have been in the dungeons the whole Rebellion? Is there anything new about him in TWOIAF?

[Ygrain]

So why go through all that exchange if all they had to do was say we are protecting the King, and if coming out with that spoiler would ruin everything [and it would] why insert that passage in the first place?

Is that a serious question?

We have a mystery which will be revealed later and in order to do so, there have to be planted hints towards the reveal without giving it away too soon. The ToJ dream is an awesome piece of writing, very compelling, providing shades of meaning which, in hindsight, will fit to the puzzle. What is there about it not to understand?

[RumHam]

Has Ethan Glover been confirmed to have been in the dungeons the whole Rebellion? Is there anything new about him in TWOIAF?

He is not mentioned at all.