R+L=J v.117

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Blood of virginity has been represented with a sword. A bloody sword, being the sword the most obvious sign of manhood. Dustin talks about how her blood was in Brandon's "sword", not on the bed.

In Lyanna's context, it has to be due to childbirth. She definitely did not menstruated until she died. And I doubt it was Rhaegar's dick what left her bloody and killed her :dunno:

When you hear hoofbeats, thing horses, not zebras.

[JonSnow4President]

Blood of virginity has been represented with a sword. A bloody sword, being the sword the most obvious sign of manhood. Dustin talks about how her blood was in Brandon's "sword", not on the bed.

In Lyanna's context, it has to be due to childbirth. She definitely did not menstruated until she died. And I doubt it was Rhaegar's dick what left her bloody and killed her :dunno:

When you hear hoofbeats, thing horses, not zebras.

Actually, I think some people are hearing water buffalo.

[BearQueen87]

Actually, I think some people are hearing water buffalo.

I was thinking something legless that has no parallel to any sort of hoofed creature.

[BearQueen87]

DP

Have a thing: :blushing:

[Ser Creighton]

Oh boy, the thread is going to a weird place again isn't it?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Actually, I think some people are hearing water buffalo.

I was thinking something legless that has no parallel to any sort of hoofed creature.

Flying Alien Water Buffalos.

Because, why then not say something like "uhmm... maybe Lyanna was... hemophiliac!"? I mean, why not. That would be the SHOCKING PLOT TWIST that no one expects to happen, which is what many believe ASOIAF is about.

Girl disappeared for months with a man. Girl is found in a bloody bed, protected by the man's bodyguards. Brother returns home with a baby after he had to kill the bodyguards first.

Ah... Girl had bad coagulation, that has to be!

[BearQueen87]

Oh boy, the thread is going to a weird place again isn't it?

And now that you're here, you can set it right! Make us all serious, Ser!

Flying Alien Water Buffalos.

Because, why then not say something like "uhmm... maybe Lyanna was... hemophiliac!"? I mean, why not. That would be the SHOCKING PLOT TWIST that no one expects to happen, which is what many believe ASOIAF is about.

Girl disappeared for months with a man. Girl is found in a bloody bed, protected by the man's bodyguards. Brother returns home with a baby after he had to kill the bodyguards first.

Ah... Girl had bad coagulation, that has to be!

By George, I think she's solved it!

[The Twinslayer]

Show me bloody bed in any of those scenes. Not blood on the covers, or there was a blood stain in the matress. Bloody. F***ing. Bed. Then we'll talk.

Are you suggesting that Lyanna was described as being in a "Bloody. F***ing. Bed." She wasn't. Ned remembers a "bed of blood." Which is similar, but not the same. Just as the other examples I gave (flowering, violent death, etc. are similar but not the same).

Unlike bloody bed, there are several instances of someone using blood to refer to kinship, or familial like relationships, some of which have been mentioned on this f***ing page.

I agree that there are references to "my own blood" meaning something other than "my own child." I gave an example where Tyrion referred to his nephew, Joffrey, as "my own blood."

But it can also mean "my son", per the way Jeor and Jon use the phrase. When Ned calls Jon "my blood" and later refers to Jon and Robb as "my sons" he intends for the listener to conclude that Jon is one of his sons. He is not trying to secretly signal to Cat that Jon is really his nephew. If Jon is in fact not his nephew, he is trying to mislead her along with everyone else.

[BearQueen87]

Are you suggesting that Lyanna was described as being in a "Bloody. F***ing. Bed." She wasn't. Ned remembers a "bed of blood." Which is similar, but not the same. Just as the other examples I gave (flowering, violent death, etc. are similar but not the same).

I agree that there are references to "my own blood" meaning something other than "my own child." I gave an example where Tyrion referred to his nephew, Joffrey, as "my own blood."

But it can also mean "my son", per the way Jeor and Jon use the phrase. When Ned calls Jon "my blood" and later refers to Jon and Robb as "my sons" he intends for the listener to conclude that Jon is one of his sons. He is not trying to secretly signal to Cat that Jon is really his nephew. If Jon is in fact not his nephew, he is trying to mislead her along with everyone else.

No of course he's not trying to signal anything. He's trying not to lie to his wife more than he already has because "the lie is not without honor". He could very easily say son, but George makes the choice to make him say blood so that when Ned doesn't think about Jon in his list of children, you're reminded of this "blood" not son incident.

ETA: for clarity, Ned isn't trying to signal anything...GEORGE is.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Are you suggesting that Lyanna was described as being in a "Bloody. F***ing. Bed." She wasn't. Ned remembers a "bed of blood." Which is similar, but not the same.

I get what you want to say, but you are discarding the other elements.

"bed of blood" is what many call to the place when a person bleeds until they die, which happened to Lyanna, apparently. Now, what are the options:

-she got hurt

-she had a disease

-she gave birth

All of those options are actually very possible. She could have indeed gotten hurt, as much as she probably had a disease as well. If you consider it, maybe that' the reason why Rhaegar couldn't move her back to her family.

But, there are more things to consider.

First, there is a baby involved. And, when Ned is close to bastards or children, he immediately remembers that he made a promise to Lyanna.

Second, Lyanna ran away with a man. Not any man, a man that is known to have loved her. Many say he did. And Ned, the one who saw her for the last time, doesn't consider him a bad person.

Third, many refers to the place where a woman gives birth as a "bloody bed". Rather than evidence, this is a hint. Birthing is called "bloody bed", Lyanna is found in a "bed of blood", because when women give birth, the bed where they do it, gets bloody.

All of those combined is what gives the idea of Lyanna giving birth, not just the bloody bed.

[The Twinslayer]

Blood of virginity has been represented with a sword. A bloody sword, being the sword the most obvious sign of manhood. Dustin talks about how her blood was in Brandon's "sword", not on the bed.In Lyanna's context, it has to be due to childbirth. She definitely did not menstruated until she died. And I doubt it was Rhaegar's dick what left her bloody and killed her :dunno:When you hear hoofbeats, thing horses, not zebras.

I think it is more likely than not that Lyanna died as a result of childbirth. I don't know how you could read Robert's statements that Rhaegar (who was clearly capable of producing children) raped Lyanna hundreds of times and not think she died in childbirth. I would go further and say the reason that Robert thinks Rhaegar raped Lyanna is that he knows that she died in childbirth -- what other cause of death would Ned give him?

However, GRRM is clever, and he has carefully left the door open for us to conclude that the KGs killed her, creating her bed of blood. Remember that these are the same KGs who sat by and watched Aerys murder Brandon and Rickard, and whose Sworn Brothers stood watch while Aerys raped Rhaella.

[BearQueen87]

I think it is more likely than not that Lyanna died as a result of childbirth. I don't know how you could read Robert's statements that Rhaegar (who was clearly capable of producing children) roared Lyanna hundreds of times and not think she died in childbirth. I would go further and say the reason that Robert thinks Rhaegar raped Lyanna is that he knows that she died in childbirth -- what other cause of death would Ned give him.

However, GRRM is clever, and he has carefully left the door open for us to conclude that the KGs killed her, creating her bed of blood. Remember that these are the same KGs who sat by and watched Aerys murder Brandon and Rickard, and whose Sworn Brothers stood watch while Aerys raped Rhaella.

Why would the KG murder Lyanna? They stood by and watched because Aerys was their king and they are sworn to defend HIM not the people he chooses to lash out against. Jaime : "We're sworn to defend her [Rhaella] too" "Not from HIM [Aerys]"

[markg171]

No of course he's not trying to signal anything. He's trying not to lie to his wife more than he already has because "the lie is not without honor". He could very easily say son, but George makes the choice to make him say blood so that when Ned doesn't think about Jon in his list of children, you're reminded of this "blood" not son incident.

ETA: for clarity, Ned isn't trying to signal anything...GEORGE is.

Does anyone in the series ever list one of their bastards when they list their children?

[The Twinslayer]

I get what you want to say, but you are discarding the other elements."bed of blood" is what many call to the place when a person bleeds until they die, which happened to Lyanna, apparently. Now, what are the options:-she got hurt-she had a disease-she gave birthAll of those options are actually very possible. She could have indeed gotten hurt, as much as she probably had a disease as well. If you consider it, maybe that' the reason why Rhaegar couldn't move her back to her family.But, there are more things to consider.First, there is a baby involved. And, when Ned is close to bastards or children, he immediately remembers that he made a promise to Lyanna.Second, Lyanna ran away with a man. Not any man, a man that is known to have loved her. Many say he did. And Ned, the one who saw her for the last time, doesn't consider him a bad person.Third, many refers to the place where a woman gives birth as a "bloody bed".Rather than evidence, this is a hint. Birthing is called "bloody bed", Lyanna is found in a "bed of blood", because when women give birth, the bed where they do it, gets bloody.All of those combined is what gives the idea of Lyanna giving birth, not just the bloody bed.

I agree with most of what you said except the bolded part. There are not "many" references to a "bloody bed." There is exactly one, by Mirri Maz Duur, and she may be referring to child birth narrowly or to the entire flowering-sex-childbirth process.

[BearQueen87]

Does anyone in the series ever list one of their bastards when they list their children?

Roose and Walder Frey both talk about their bastard children as their children. Also, it's not like people in this series sit around and list all their children to pass the time. But at that moment--when Ned is actively thinking about his children--he doesn't just not list Jon...he waits until the topic (in his head) has moved on and then mentions Jon. It's not that he's not forgetting Jon, he is placing Jon in a latter category...as someone who is not his child.

He thinks about "his children" and lists them--Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Rickon...and then it goes on for a bit and then he thinks about 'and what if it were Jon" in other words: this person is not my child like the other 5. Someone who is not my son but still my blood.

I agree with most of what you said except the bolded part. There are not "many" references to a "bloody bed." There is exactly one, by Mirri Maz Duur, and she may be referring to child birth narrowly or to the entire flowering-sex-childbirth process.

Damphair talks about women in their beds of blood and pain. Cersei talks about a woman's life being mostly one of blood and mess. Brienne and Cat talk about a woman's pain--not precisely the same thing, I know but I'm putting it out there since it was brought up earlier.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I think it is more likely than not that Lyanna died as a result of childbirth. I don't know how you could read Robert's statements that Rhaegar (who was clearly capable of producing children) roared Lyanna hundreds of times and not think she died in childbirth. I would go further and say the reason that Robert thinks Rhaegar raped Lyanna is that he knows that she died in childbirth -- what other cause of death would Ned give him.

Robert believes Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna because in his mind, Lyanna would be incapable of have actually decided to go with him by her own account. And I doubt he believes that Rhaegar would have kidnapped Lyanna to talk to her. In many mythologies, when a man kidnaps a woman, it's because he sexually wants her. He is just assuming the obvious. Robert himself doesn't relate children to sex, if you analyse him well. Unlike other men, he never returns to his women to check if he left any child. Also, it is possible to be raped (even many times) and not getting pregnant.

However, GRRM is clever, and he has carefully left the door open for us to conclude that the KGs killed her, creating her bed of blood. Remember that these are the same KGs who sat by and watched Aerys murder Brandon and Rickard, and whose Sworn Brothers stood watch while Aerys raped Rhaella.

Technically, they are not the same. Arthur and Whent were not there to witness that.

And the door is not as open as you might thing. The first question would be "why?". Rhaegar has died probably months ago, why just kill Lyanna now that Ned is there? Or did they hurt her and let her bleed until she died? Doubt it. Also, Lyanna was still alive when Ned found her, and Ned remembers Arthur as an honourable man. He wouldn't think that of him if he had tried to kill Lyanna or let her there to die, and I doubt Lyanna would also omit that part when she tried to make some explaining to Ned (she asked to return to Winterfell but she forgot to tell him that the KG tried to kill her?)

[Ser Leftwich]

Nerd rage = turned up to eleven. Soon on v. 118!

[BearQueen87]

Nerd rage = turned up to eleven. Soon on v. 118!

Where hopefully we can agree to move on from having to defend RLJ because none of us--on either side of this thing--are going to budge. So those of us who do believe and would like to talk about the implications should be able to do so in the RLJ (as mostly accepted fact) thread.

[The Twinslayer]

Why would the KG murder Lyanna? They stood by and watched because Aerys was their king and they are sworn to defend HIM not the people he chooses to lash out against. Jaime : "We're sworn to defend her [Rhaella] too" "Not from HIM [Aerys]"

I think that if Rhaegar was holding Lyanna captive and he ordered the KGs to murder her before letting her fall into Robert's hands they would have no choice but to obey and that Ned would (perversely) think they were honorable for doing their duty -- in contrast to Jaime, whom Ned despises for killing the mad king who murdered Ned's father and brother.

I also think that if Lyanna loved Rhaegar and did not want to marry Robert, and if she found out that Robert had killed Rhaegar claiming that he did it to win her back, she might have asked the KGs to kill her to prevent that happening -- just as Cersei told Ilyn Payne to kill her, Sansa, etc. if Stannis won on the Blackwater.

[BearQueen87]

I think that if Rhaegar was holding Lyanna captive and he ordered the KGs to murder her before letting her fall into Robert's hands they would have no choice but to obey and that Ned would (perversely) think they were honorable for doing their duty -- in contrast to Jaime, whom Ned despises for killing the mad king who murdered Ned's father and brother.

I also think that if Lyanna loved Rhaegar and did not want to marry Robert, and if she found out that Robert had killed Rhaegar claiming that he did it to win her back, she might have asked the KGs to kill her to prevent that happening -- just as Cersei told Ilyn Payne to kill her, Sansa, etc. if Stannis won on the Blackwater.

So the three KG cut Lyanna's wrists and then left her to slowly bleed out while they went out to face Ned? And this happened over such a slow period of time that the room smells of blood? And L was still coherent enough despite the blood loss to speak to Ned? The three KG wouldn't mercifully end her life if they were ordered to kill her--either by R or L?