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Ygrain

R+L=J v.117

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I think this is the first plausible reason I've read. It may work, but still...

As far as I remember, Arthur Dayne is a great strategist and closest Rhaegar's friend, according to Jaime's and Barristan's memories. He defeated those people in the Kingwood, at least.

Why did Rhaegar left him behind as well? Wasn't he one of his partisans? Hightower followed orders. Whent and H were more than enough to guard Lyanna. So then?

Another plausible reason is that Aerys told Hightower to hold Lyanna hostage to ensure Rhaegar's return.

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The point is that you, and most, only focus on the fight scene, and refuse to think on what happened before.

Since Rhaegar went away till Ned came in, 3 KGs seem to have been iddling about ToJ. WHY?

Did Rhaegar give this apparently stupid command? And if so, was Rhaegar stupid or had he a good reason? WHAT?

These are the relevant questions. How honed their swords were, and the sort, is just inmaterial.

So, I want to go through the events the KG at the tower knew about with you.

1. Rhaegar, Lyanna, Dayne, and Whent go to the TOJ. 5 KG remain available to protect Aerys. The king is being protected, and the KG are obeying orders.

2. Hightower comes to the TOJ on Aerys' orders. He stays. Given his personality, we can infer he was probably ordered by Rhaegar to stay. 4 KG remain available to protect Aerys. The king is being protected, and the KG are obeying orders of living royals.

3. Now, this is where the facts are a little less clear. Realistically, there are two options.

>Scenario 1: The KG at the TOJ receive news of the trident before news of KL. 2 KG are dead, 1 is captured, and one still protects the king. The king can name more KG of course, but the king's safety is in question. The tower KG have to evaluate between obeying the orders of a dead Rhaegar and predicting a living king. Since they're at the TOJ, they decide that staying at the tower is the correct option. This could be because (not all inclusive) 1) There is still 1 KG guarding the king, so they are going to commit to the orders of a dead prince. 2) They obey all dead princes orders, regardless of the status of the king's safety. 3) Practically, they realize they can't get to Aerys before the rebel armies do. However, then they learn about the sack of KL. They know King and what should be his heir (Aegon) are just killed, and that the 1KG remaining is no true KG. At this point, both the crown prince who gave them orders are dead, and the king whose authority the prince's derived from is also dead. The new king is without protection. Anybody with half a brain would consider it a dereliction of their duty to chill out at a tower and not go to the new King, unless there was a potential heir that, by all the (flexible) rules of Westeros, should be king.

>Scenario 2: The KG at the TOJ receive news of the Trident and new of KL concurrently. At this point, both the crown prince who gave them orders are dead, and the king whose authority the prince's derived from is also dead. The new king is without protection. Anybody with half a brain would consider it a dereliction of their duty to chill out at a tower and not go to the new King, unless there was a potential heir that, by all the (flexible) rules of Westeros, should be king.

So, let's introduce Aegon to this scenario. It would explain the KG motivations for being there. The issue everyone has with Aegon at the ToJ is not that it would explain the KG presence (not that a legit Jon scenario wouldn't). The issue everyone has is that it makes no fucking logistical sense on any level. It assumes that, if Rhaegar or Elia ordered it, they only saved one child. I can't imagine any mother doing that. And even the most distant father wouldn't do it if he believed his daughter to be one of the three heads of the dragon. (Let me guess, Dany is really Rhaenys?) Aerys valued Rhaegar's family as hostages, so I doubt he does it. EVEN IF they did, they send them across the country, the opposite way of where we "know" he went. It means sending them along the edges of the Stormlands, through the rebels area of influence, when there's a ship that can be ordered to the free cities at any time. My 5 month old second cousin can plan better than that.

So no, I'm not "only focusing on the fight scene." I'm focusing on the retarded logic and logistics that would need to occur in the scenario you present. I'm also focusing on the fact that Varys is one of the biggest schemers and liars in the series. I'm also focusing on the KG logic for staying at the tower. Given the logistical and logic issues for Aegon at the tower, I think there has to be an apparent heir other than Aegon gone there, or else they would have gone to Viserys.

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Just a quick response before I have to go to sleep. I think it is very important to shift through the facts we are given and see what we really know, and what, on the other hand, we only assume. Your points are spot on to this point. Ned and Kevan are "first-hand witnesses" to what? They are both witnesses to Tywin laying before his new king the bodies of Elia and her children, including the child Tywin claims as Aegon, but is unrecognizable because his head is a "red ruin" from Ser Gregor Clegane's murder. We have no first hand witness of the murder other than Clegane himself. Ned and Kevan, who neither have any known contact with Aegon from his birth to the time of his supposed murder, are only reacting to the horrendous nature of the murder and the information given them.

Incorrect, Jaime is present, and he had been the Kingsguard that Rhaegar trusted to protect Aegon, Rhanys, and Elia. Jaime thinks that Aegon is dead.

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The simplest explanation of Hightower being in Dorne is GRRM's statement about obeying orders. If just for the sake of argument we accept [and I don't] Lyanna's bump is destined to be the rightful lawful king, he was still only a bump when Hightower tooled up. Up until this point Dayne and Whent have been more than adequate to guard both Rhaegar and Lyanna. Why then is it necessary to order Hightower to stay behind as well while Rhaegar, the actual heir to the throne, rides north into a war zone without any member of the Kings Guard to protect him?

Answer: because we know that Rhaegar intends to carry out a coup and therefore the very last thing he wants is the White Bull doing his duty by protecting his king - Aerys.

Answer: Rhaegar always travels with his sworn swords, Whent and Dayne. (canon)

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That doesn't explain why Hightower also remained behind.



ETA: to which I'd add that at this point in time Aerys is the king, Rhaegar is the heir to the throne with Aegon next in tine. If the bump turns out to be a boy [and lives] it will then be third in line after Aerys, leaving aside any possible complications with Viserys.



While you're perfectly justified in arguing that the three members of the Kings Guard who died in Dorne were defending a baby they believed to be the rightful king [albeit I disagree] the fact is that he was not born when they were ordered to stay in Dorne and there were others closer to the throne - starting with Rhaegar himself.


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That doesn't explain why Hightower also remained behind.

Oh, doesn't it? I credited you with more intelligence than that. Who guards Lady Lyanna, since she is royal family?

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Okay, I'll spell it out for you, BC.



  1. Rhaegar, pregnant Lyanna, Whent and Dayne are at the tower.
  2. Hightower arrives, and tells Rhaegar that King Aerys commands that he return to King's Landing.
  3. Rhaegar, Whent, and Dayne must travel to King's Landing.
  4. Hightower is briefed about Lady Lyanna's status as royal family, and must remain to protect her.
  5. When Rhaegar has reached the safety of King's Landing he sends Whent and Dayne back to the tower to avoid any conflicts with Aerys summoning the Kingsguard to answer embarrassing questions.

So, you have Hightower at the tower with Lyanna for two travel times to King's Landing, before Whent and Dayne return. It is entirely possible for Rhaegar to have taken the army to the Trident and died before Whent and Dayne returned. The time line is very fuzzy about when Hightower found Rhaegar, but it certainly appears that Rhaegar was not long at King's Landing before leaving for the Trident. Jonothor Darry (died at the Trident) was present the night of Chelsted's roasting, and Jaime slew Rossart a fortnight later.


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Yet 5. blatantly contradicts "Rhaegar always travels with his sworn swords, Whent and Dayne."



ETA: apologies, I got cut off by the phone ringing [don't ask]. The point being that an otherwise unrecorded journey by Whent and Dayne to Kings Landing is argued by the statement that they always travel with him, but yet they suddenly part with him and go back to Dorne instead of travelling north with him to the Trident.


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Yes 5. blatantly contradicts "Rhaegar always travels with his sworn swords, Whent and Dayne."

Correct, but the canon says that RHaegar always travels with his sworn swords that we learn are Whent and Dayne. There is an obvious reason why Rhaegar must change his MO. If Whent and Dayne remain with him in King's Landing, their presence will be noted, and Aerys will summon them to learn his son's secrets. The Kingsguard must obey the king and answer the kings questions. Rhaegar does travel to the Trident with three remaining Kingsguard, leaving Jaime at the Red Keep, as his father wished.

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Yet 5. blatantly contradicts "Rhaegar always travels with his sworn swords, Whent and Dayne."

ETA: apologies, I got cut off by the phone ringing [don't ask]. The point being that an otherwise unrecorded journey by Whent and Dayne to Kings Landing is argued by the statement that they always travel with him, but yet they suddenly part with him and go back to Dorne instead of travelling north with him to the Trident.

What is the difference between Barristan and Dayne? GRRM says that they are equal with equal equipment, the difference is Dawn. Rhaegar must part with Dayne and Whent, he has no choice. He also loves Lyanna (died with her name on his lips is rather strong), so it is not unreasonable for him to part with his favorites to ensure her safety. Rhaegar is ensuring her safety by preventing King Aerys from questioning Whent and Dayne, and by providing her with the same number of Kingsguard protectors as he will have while leading the loyalist army.

ETA: Don't tell me that you always thought that Rhaegar made the trip leaving all of the Kingsguard behind, during a civil war, through hostile territory. :P

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Whilst I understand what you're saying I think its an unnecessary complication far more easily explained by by Rhaegar leaving both in Dorne in the first place rather than sending them back from Kings Landing - and at the same time ordering Hightower to stay in Dorne to leave Aerys unprotected.


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Whilst I understand what you're saying I think its an unnecessary complication far more easily explained by by Rhaegar leaving both in Dorne in the first place rather than sending them back from Kings Landing - and at the same time ordering Hightower to stay in Dorne to leave Aerys unprotected.

Contrary. Rhaegar always travels with his Kingsguard protection. Leaving them behind is an unnecessary complication, actually it is an unsupported assumption. That unsupported assumption is a necessary key to your argument, but sorry about that.

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