Jump to content

R+L=J v.118


MtnLion

Recommended Posts

Reference guide

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targaryen fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?

Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty. For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.


But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious. Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.


This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the A Song of Ice and Fire readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 18 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother
?
Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Since this theory has been refined so well, will Martin change the outcome of the story to surprise his fans?
No, he said he won't change the outcome of the story only because some people have put together all the clues and solved the puzzle.

Previous editions:

Please click on the spoiler below to reveal links to all previous editions of this thread.

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a” (thread twenty-two (a))

R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J v.33” (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"
R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

"
R+L=J v.41" (thread forty-one)

"
R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"
R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"
R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"
R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"
R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"
R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"
R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"
R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"
R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"
R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)

"
R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"
R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"
R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty-four)

"
R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"
R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)

"
R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v.58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v.59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v.60" (thread sixty)

"R+L=J v.61" (thread sixty-one)

"R+L=J v.62" (thread sixty-two)

"R+L=J v.63" (thread sixty-three)

"R+L=J v.64" (thread sixty-four)

"R+L=J v.65" (thread sixty-five)

"R+L=J v.66" (thread sixty-six)

"R+L=J v.67" (thread sixty-seven)

"R+L=J v.68" (thread sixty-eight)

"R+L=J v.69" (thread sixty-nine)

"R+L=J v.70" (thread seventy)

"R+L=J v.71" (thread seventy-one)

"R+L=J v.72" (thread seventy-two)

"R+L=J v.73" (thread seventy-three)

"R+L=J v.74" (thread seventy-four)

"R+L=J v.75" (thread seventy-five)

"R+L=J v.76" (thread seventy-six)

"R+L=J v.77" (thread seventy-seven)

"R+L=J v.78" (thread seventy-eight)

"R+L=J v.79" (thread seventy-nine)

"R+L=J v.80" (thread eighty)

"R+L=J v.81" (thread eighty-one)

"R+L=J v.82" (thread eighty-two)

"R+L=J v.83" (thread eighty-three)

"R+L=J v.84" (thread eighty-four)

"R+L=J v.85" (thread eighty-five)

"R+L=J v.86" (thread eighty-six)

"R+L=J v.87" (thread eighty-seven)

"R+L=J v.88" (thread eighty-eight)

"R+L=J v.89" (thread eighty-nine)

"R+L=J v.90" (thread ninety)

"R+L=J v.91" (thread ninety-one)

"R+L=J v.92" (thread ninety-two)

"R+L=J v.93" (thread ninety-three)

"R+L=J v.94" (thread ninety-four)

"R+L=J v.95" (thread ninety-five)

"R+L=J v.96" (thread ninety-six)

"R+L=J v.97" (thread ninety-seven)

"R+L=J v.98" (thread ninety-eight)

"R+L=J v.99" (thread ninety-nine)

"R+L=J v.100" (thread one hundred)

"R+L=J v.101" (thread one hundred one)

"R+L=J v.102" (thread one hundred two)

"R+L=J v.103" (thread one hundred three)

"R+L=J v.104" (thread one hundred four)

"R+L=J v.105" (thread one hundred five)

"R+L=J v.106" (thread one hundred six)

"R+L=J v.107" (thread one hundred seven)

"R+L=J v.108" (thread one hundred eight)

"R+L=J v.109" (thread one hundred nine)

"R+L=J v.110" (thread one hundred ten)

"R+L=J v.111" (thread one hundred eleven)

"R+L=J v.112" (thread one hundred twelve)

"R+L=J v.113" (thread one hundred thirteen)

"R+L=J v.114" (thread one hundred fourteen)

The TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J threads were used to openly discuss spoilers from TWoIaF at the time we needed to protect that information.

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.1"

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.2"

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.3"

"R+L=J v.115" (thread one hundred fifteen)

"R+L=J v.116" (thread one hundred sixteen)

"R+L=J v.117" (thread one hundred seventeen)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Shiny!



So...RLJ..so what?



I want to put for the idea that it's Jon's blood that allows him to do "the thing" (no don't ask me what the thing is, I haven't the foggiest)



Now that the world book ban is lifted: it was suggested that Planetos wasn't always so fracked up. The imbalance in the seasons happened thousands of years ago--some sort of shift (human stupidity playing with deep magics is my guess...). And I think one of the major thrusts of ASOIAF is getting the world back in balance. And that's where Jon comes in. He is not "the one true hero" but he is the only person who can put balance back GRRM's universe because he himself IS the balance thanks to his RL blood (the literal blood of dragons--thanks magic--and the literal blood of winter/ice--thank to whatever happened long long long long ago with the Others and Starks)



Jon's role isn't necessarily to defeat the Others because that's really only taking down one side (and dragons/fire are just as destructive as Others/winter) but to restore balance in the world.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Shiny!

So...RLJ..so what?

I want to put for the idea that it's Jon's blood that allows him to do "the thing" (no don't ask me what the thing is, I haven't the foggiest)

Now that the world book ban is lifted: it was suggested that Planetos wasn't always so fracked up. The imbalance in the seasons happened thousands of years ago--some sort of shift (human stupidity playing with deep magics is my guess...). And I think one of the major thrusts of ASOIAF is getting the world back in balance. And that's where Jon comes in. He is not "the one true hero" but he is the only person who can put balance back GRRM's universe because he himself IS the balance thanks to his RL blood (the literal blood of dragons--thanks magic--and the literal blood of winter/ice--thank to whatever happened long long long long ago with the Others and Starks)

Jon's role isn't necessarily to defeat the Others because that's really only taking down one side (and dragons/fire are just as destructive as Others/winter) but to restore balance in the world.

Well, Summer and Winter easily fits with the whole Fire and Ice thing. Potentially, Jon, as both ice and fire, and possibly imbued with the powers of both (assuming dragon rider) is able to either destroy the unbalancing force or act as a go between for the forces of ice and the forces of fire to create some sort of truce between whatever forces are in conflict.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Shiny!

So...RLJ..so what?

I want to put for the idea that it's Jon's blood that allows him to do "the thing" (no don't ask me what the thing is, I haven't the foggiest)

Now that the world book ban is lifted: it was suggested that Planetos wasn't always so fracked up. The imbalance in the seasons happened thousands of years ago--some sort of shift (human stupidity playing with deep magics is my guess...). And I think one of the major thrusts of ASOIAF is getting the world back in balance. And that's where Jon comes in. He is not "the one true hero" but he is the only person who can put balance back GRRM's universe because he himself IS the balance thanks to his RL blood (the literal blood of dragons--thanks magic--and the literal blood of winter/ice--thank to whatever happened long long long long ago with the Others and Starks)

Jon's role isn't necessarily to defeat the Others because that's really only taking down one side (and dragons/fire are just as destructive as Others/winter) but to restore balance in the world.

I agree, and I kind of have a very crackpot theory that In TWOW, after a weird mix of others magic ("only the cold", the WW have passed the wall) and Mellisandre's magic (killing Ghost to wake him :crying: ), Jon will wake up with one eye blue (wight) and one red (Ghost), you know blance between fire and ice. But this is really crackpot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree, and I kind of have a very crackpot theory that In TWOW, after a weird mix of others magic ("only the cold", the WW have passed the wall) and Mellisandre's magic (killing Ghost to wake him :crying: ), Jon will wake up with one eye blue (wight) and one red (Ghost), you know blance between fire and ice. But this is really crackpot.

Yes! let me join you on the crackpottery. Jon's eyes of dark grey turn to red and blue combine???

http://i.imgur.com/6pcXiyw.jpg

I would love that, parts of his Father's genes take over.

And having crazy amounts of affinity with dragons once the boy is killed and man be born... to rule. ^_^

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lol, with one eye blue and one red, is Jon a Paragade or Renegon?



Because I had made the effort and the issue has resurfaced, here goes a comprehensive list of birthing imagery in ASOIAF:



He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood. (AGOT)


Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses (AGOT)



Before,” Dany said to the ugly Lhazareen woman, “I heard you speak of birthing songs …”


I know every secret of the bloody bed, Silver Lady, nor have I ever lost a babe,” Mirri Maz Duur replied. (AGOT)


The Lamb Woman knows the secrets of the birthing bed,” Irri said. “She said so, I heard her.” (AGOT)



Nine moons had waxed and waned, and Robb had been born in Riverrun while his father still warred in the south. She had brought him forth in blood and pain, not knowing whether Ned would ever see him. (Catelyn AGOT)



Women birth children in blood and pain, and die. (Damphair in Theon, ACOK)



That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain. (Damphair, AFFC)


No woman could defeat him, not even Asha; women were made to fight their battles in the birthing bed. (Damphair, AFFC)



A woman’s war is in the birthing bed.” (Randyll Tarly, AFFC)


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lol, with one eye blue and one red, is Jon a Paragade or Renegon?

Because I had made the effort and the issue has resurfaced, here goes a comprehensive list of birthing imagery in ASOIAF:

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood. (AGOT)

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses (AGOT)

“Before,” Dany said to the ugly Lhazareen woman, “I heard you speak of birthing songs …”

“I know every secret of the bloody bed, Silver Lady, nor have I ever lost a babe,” Mirri Maz Duur replied. (AGOT)

“The Lamb Woman knows the secrets of the birthing bed,” Irri said. “She said so, I heard her.” (AGOT)

Nine moons had waxed and waned, and Robb had been born in Riverrun while his father still warred in the south. She had brought him forth in blood and pain, not knowing whether Ned would ever see him. (Catelyn AGOT)

Women birth children in blood and pain, and die. (Damphair in Theon, ACOK)

That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain. (Damphair, AFFC)

No woman could defeat him, not even Asha; women were made to fight their battles in the birthing bed. (Damphair, AFFC)

“A woman’s war is in the birthing bed.” (Randyll Tarly, AFFC)

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooo............

We were trying to leave that in the last thread.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree, and I kind of have a very crackpot theory that In TWOW, after a weird mix of others magic ("only the cold", the WW have passed the wall) and Mellisandre's magic (killing Ghost to wake him :crying: ), Jon will wake up with one eye blue (wight) and one red (Ghost), you know blance between fire and ice. But this is really crackpot.

Holy moly...I love it! Crackpot on my friend

Link to comment
Share on other sites

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooo............

We were trying to leave that in the last thread.

I am a mean, mean woman :P

Besides, no-one forcing you to take up the challenge.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Could be worse, there is a new theory that Jon will eat Jojen, everyone eats Jojen, kids apparently a Happy meal.

Yeah..... I've seen it. Next thing you know, Howland Reed will be the High Septon, all in an elaborate conspiracy to raise Jon to the Iron Throne.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yay. A new thread. A new hope (for non-crackpot discussion)

I had answered your question befrore you asked them. Here you are, and excuse the self-quote:

"I've explained it many a time, but know TWOIAF has confirmed that Aerys and Rhaegar were at odds.

Rhaegar had gone away. Aegon was his price for coming back. He wanted him out of Aerys reach if something went wrong. Aerys needed Rhaegar, Aegon was his grandson anyway, and he had Elia and Rhaennys as hostages, so he obliged. Besides, no one would know. Elia felt her son would be safer and conceded. No crack."

That's your answer, it could have been a compromise: no one took away everything he wanted, but everybody got something he or she wanted.

You might find something ilogical just because you heven't thought enough. That said, I don't see the difficulties of travelling with a troddler. Moreover, I'd say it's the easiest age.

For the present, the best objection is Black Crow's but keep trying. As long as you're respectful, I like it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I will find out, give me a sec. :)

Edit: Thats odd, I don't see a name attached, but its from the Lyanna Stark images page.

Its interesting to see the different interpretations.

If you mean this page, I don't even see it there...

I might have some winter roses, if I were able to change the colour to blue :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah..... I've seen it. Next thing you know, Howland Reed will be the High Septon, all in an elaborate conspiracy to raise Jon to the Iron Throne.

Oh someone is always planting Jon on that throne. I know some of us are not fans of the Throne and KL is a cesspool. I seriously hope the wild fire goes boom. Though I hope most of the people make it out. Though I think Winter is going to take a major toll on life this time around.

I have this odd thought that KL gets heavily Wighted and Cersei ends up setting it on fire to stop the invasion. Draws a nice inverse parallel to Jaime. Plus given how much of a villain Cersei is made out to be it does not escape me that Martin could happily give a heroic act and it so fits with his style.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh someone is always planting Jon on that throne. I know some of us are not fans of the Throne and KL is a cesspool. I seriously hope the wild fire goes boom. Though I hope most of the people make it out. Though I think Winter is going to take a major toll on life this time around.

I have this odd thought that KL gets heavily Wighted and Cersei ends up setting it on fire to stop the invasion. Draws a nice inverse parallel to Jaime. Plus given how much of a villain Cersei is made out to be it does not escape me that Martin could happily give a heroic act and it so fits with his style.

Oh, I think there's a decent change Jon ends up on the IT. IMO, it's his blood right (especially since Robert used his claim as a Targaryen heir to take the throne). However, the thought that HR = HS and is going through with an elaborate (and always unexplained) conspiracy is the crazy part).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...