Bakker XXXII: The Acts of Fane

[Hello World]

I think the Heron Spear is possibly the biggest red-herring in the series,

The Herrin Spear?

I don't remember that line. Who was the narrator? Is the omniscient 3rd person? Or is it Shae?

I think the entire story is from Shae's pov, so it's either a mistake, or a hint that Shae has the JE and can view all of time at once.

[Francis Buck]

The narrator seems the same as the one used in the main series to me, which is basically omniscient third-person.

[Hello World]

Nah, that was clearly Shae's pov. The only part that's not clear is the first paragraph, but Bakker doesn't change povs mid-section.

But even if it's omniscient, it's still very strange for the narrator to use that phrase.

[Hello World]

To add, Bakker even says in the comments to the story that a lot of the names for things are different from the ones in the main series because it is written from an ancient context. Not really a big deal, but definitely looks like a slip to me.

[Hello World]

Rereading the last scene between Cnaiur and Moenghus I'm now convinced that it was something similar to what happens between the WLW and Psatma.

[Anatúrinbor]

The Herrin Spear?

Heh. That might have been intentional, I guess.

I don't remember that line. Who was the narrator? Is the omniscient 3rd person? Or is it Shae?

It looked like it was Shae to me. :dunno:

[Larry of the Lawn]

Rereading the last scene between Cnaiur and Moenghus I'm now convinced that it was something similar to what happens between the WLW and Psatma.

Does that, in turn, bode well for the Seswatha/Celmomas sperm bank theory?

[Hello World]

If there is something more to Moënghus then this is exactly it,

Suddenly Cnaiür could feel it: the miles of earth heaped above them, the clawing inversion of ground. He had come too far. He had crawled too deep.

Suddenly, Cnaiür starts feeling something. We can’t trust that Cnaiür himself understands what it is he’s feeling.

And Moënghus was holding him, enclosing him, healing his innumerable scars.

[...]

The kiss was deep; the smell strong. His heart hammered. Shame bled from his every pore, skittered across his trembling limbs, and somehow ignited an even deeper ardour.

Moënghus is healing Cnaiür’s scars. Something is bleeding from Cnaiür’s every pore, again, we can’t trust that Cnaiür understands what that is. And then a “deeper ardour” ignites inside of him. Such words should not be taken lightly.

For an instant, Cnaiür thought, it seemed the God watched him through a man’s skull.

What do you see?

But then his lover fell away, burning as he must, such was the force of what had possessed them.

And now the God watches from Moë’s sockets, and Cnaiür notes a force that had possessed them.

Is there any other passage in the series with as many loaded phrases?

I know many are going to laugh, but seriously, Cnaiür = Meppa. Moënghus healed his scars and the ardour that ignited inside is the Holy Water.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

If there is something more to Moënghus then this is exactly it,

Suddenly, Cnaiür starts feeling something. We can’t trust that Cnaiür himself understands what it is he’s feeling.

Moënghus is healing Cnaiür’s scars. Something is bleeding from Cnaiür’s every pore, again, we can’t trust that Cnaiür understands what that is. And then a “deeper ardour” ignites inside of him. Such words should not be taken lightly.

And now the God watches from Moë’s sockets, and Cnaiür notes a force that had possessed them.

Is there any other passage in the series with as many loaded phrases?

I know many are going to laugh, but seriously, Cnaiür = Meppa. Moënghus healed his scars and the ardour that ignited inside is the Holy Water.

I love this, and it cannot be dismissed. Cnauir arc is said to be done, so Meppa is MORE! Meppa is the last Chisaurim, Cnaüir the last Scyvendli (of any worth). I am curious to see as I reread if Meppa has any mannerisms alike with Cnaüir (pretty sure Meppa only speaks when its worth it, spot on with Cnaüir). Anyhow, its a great catch and I don't care how Cnaüir lives on, only that he does. Though, Meppa=Cnaüir has been thrown around some, so don't worry about the giggles! ;)

[Anatúrinbor]

Did anyone keep track of the lights in the cave during the Kellhus/Moe/Cnaiur scenes? Because I'm not sure what to make of this but when Kellhus and Moe arrive at the room with the captive Skin-spies,

The pitch-black corridor had opened onto a chamber of some kind. One where things still lived, and where things had died--many things. "We have arrived," his father said.

Kellhus spoke a sorcerous word and a point of light appeared, sheeting low-vaulted walls in illumination.

Correct me if I'm misreading, but there were no other lights in the room besides the one Kellhus ignited.

Later, after Kellhus teleports Cnaiur enters the room,

He squinted at the light that hung impossibly beneath the graven vaults.

I only had the time to skim through the passages but this is still Kellhus' light?

Absolute darkness engulfed them.

And then Kellhus' light goes out at the right moment? :dunno: I'm sure I'm missing something.

[Anatúrinbor]

Ha. So I've been misreading that scene the whole time. I always took the sorcerous light to be the light of Moe that faded away with his death...

As for how Cnaiur saw his way down,

For hours Cnaiür had climbed through these obscene halls, following Serwë and her brother as they tracked Kellhus's scent. Apart from the braziers beneath the cavernous waterfall, all had been black.

[Francis Buck]

The skin-spy's senses seem pretty vague. Their ability to smell is definitely heightened, not sure about sight. Kellhus used darkness to his advantage during his confrontation with them in...Caraskand, I think? When the one Cishaurim dude first talks to him about his father.

But, I agree that the final moments with Moe and Cnaiur are loaded as hell. I tend to believe that Cnaiur, as a character, is done with the series, but I've thought about Moe's "taking of his strength" before and I certainly think there's something to it. I'm also a mild believer in Meppa being Moe, particularly with all the Dune analogs that fit into it like a glove, but then at times it also seems too obvious.

[lokisnow]

If there is something more to Moënghus then this is exactly it,

Suddenly, Cnaiür starts feeling something. We can’t trust that Cnaiür himself understands what it is he’s feeling.

Moënghus is healing Cnaiür’s scars. Something is bleeding from Cnaiür’s every pore, again, we can’t trust that Cnaiür understands what that is. And then a “deeper ardour” ignites inside of him. Such words should not be taken lightly.

And now the God watches from Moë’s sockets, and Cnaiür notes a force that had possessed them.

Is there any other passage in the series with as many loaded phrases?

I know many are going to laugh, but seriously, Cnaiür = Meppa. Moënghus healed his scars and the ardour that ignited inside is the Holy Water.

I've said before that Moe heals Cnaiur in this scene.

A possibility here is consciousness jumping, who is to say, perhaps the chorae opened a gate between souls and Moenghus leapt into Cnaiur's body, in the process, Cnaiur, is as he said, possessed by a greater fire, one that burns him away. This also means Cnaiur's arc is done and that his body is transfigured as well, healed by Moe.

That's exactly how I took it. Kellhus uttered a light which eventually went out.

But how did Cnaiur find his way down? Can the skin spies see in the dark?

Note, when Kellhus utters the light, I think it is the first time he uses magic on screen (but he may use it when he first climbs beneath the tree in Kyudea, I'm not sure). That means the light is the literal point when he is damned for use of sorcery, so far as we know. Certainly DA says that he'll be damned before that, but I'm guessing Kellhus progressed so far so fast and had such a strong grasp of the theory that he wasn't damned and vulnerable until that moment when he reveals his sorcery to Moenghus and utters that point of light.

To simplify what I'm getting at. Until Kellhus tosses that light up there, he is not damned. Once he tosses the light, he is damned. Once he is damned all his motivations change. Before he spoke the light he didnot necessarily need to seek to avoid damnation. Once he says that gnostic word he's living in a different reality. And this change in his status and motivations may be a clue to what is going on.

[Larry of the Lawn]

The skin-spy's senses seem pretty vague. Their ability to smell is definitely heightened, not sure about sight. Kellhus used darkness to his advantage during his confrontation with them in...Caraskand, I think? When the one Cishaurim dude first talks to him about his father.

But, I agree that the final moments with Moe and Cnaiur are loaded as hell. I tend to believe that Cnaiur, as a character, is done with the series, but I've thought about Moe's "taking of his strength" before and I certainly think there's something to it. I'm also a mild believer in Meppa being Moe, particularly with all the Dune analogs that fit into it like a glove, but then at times it also seems too obvious.

Probably been mentioned before, but...

Theres also the quote from the Blood Meridian at the beginning if TTT, which always calls to mind the Moengus death scene.

All progressions from a higher to a lower order are marked by ruins land mystery and a residue of nameless rage. So. Here are the dead fathers. Their spirit is entombed in the stone. It lies upon the land with the same weight and the same ubiquity.

Whats interesting is the context in Blood Meridian the quote appears in. The party of scalpers has just passed through the ruins of an ancient native civilization in a canyon marked with stone carvings and drawings. Additionally, the Judge has just told a story involvong two different sets of sons, one the son of a murderer and one the son if the victim. This is from a page or so before the passage Bakker quoted

For it is the death of the father to which the son is entitled and to which he is heir, more than his goods.

considering all the stuff walking through the nonman mansion, and Cnauir's patricide, but then also wondering if Moengusbdidnt die, was Kellhus denied his father's death, though he seems to inherit Moengus' worldly mission? Way to many possible meanings to sift through but the parallels in that chapter of BM are abundant. Also, kellhus examining the twig in his sandal echoes Glanton examining the aspen leaf. Seems to be a bunch of stuff Bakkers referencing there though i really cant make anything out of it

Spellings

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

It is not completely out of the question that Nayu could learn something else in those 20 years, and while he's illiterate in our first trilogy his intelligence and ability with language is strong. But that's another little chink that makes Cnaiur = Meppa seem unlikely to me. Meppa seems like a Fanim.

I understand that Cnaüir can't read, but he does speak Scyvendli and Sheyic, so he has the ability to pick up new languages. There is also this quote from Proyas from TWP.

A sour smirk was the most Proyas could afford. Theres more to Cnaiür urs Skiötha than you know, Akka. Mark me. In some ways, hes as extraordinary as Kellhus. Be thankful hes our pet, and not the Padirajahs.

I do believe Locke as more evidence, as to it pointing to Moe, but I hold out hope that its Cnaüir. And I believe he is capable of learning a new language, and don't consider him to be unintelligent.

ETA: Damn Triskan sorry, I just realized you said he WAS intelligent and strong with languages......at least I added a quote to confirm Proyas's thought about Cnaüir. I get touchy with Cnaüir, one of my favorite characters of all-time.

[Happy Ent]

Oh… so “acts of Fane” is a wordplay on “acts of Cain”? Is this how you all pronounce it?

[Hello World]

Oh… so “acts of Fane” is a wordplay on “acts of Cain”? Is this how you all pronounce it?

I don’t see any other way to pronounce Fane... (Fah-nay?)

Pronounced exactly the same.

Pronounced like the latter syllable in:

profane

mundane

dunyain

Yeah, exactly.

[unJon]

Maybe he wans asking how you pronounce Cain?

[lokisnow]

While watching a documentary on polka this morning, "in heaven there is no beer?", there was a shot of the crucifix with INRI printed vertically on it. That led to a quick Wikipedia visit and now I feel a colossal idiot for never realizing where the first name of inri sejenus came from.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/INRI_(disambiguation)

[Anatúrinbor]

Oh so "acts of Fane" is a wordplay on "acts of Cain"? Is this how you all pronounce it?

Yeah, I pronounce both the same way, but I'm open to alternate pronunciations. For the record, I was at first going to call the thread "The Bladder Itself" but changed that when someone mentioned Fane at the end of the last one.

And according to the Inri Sejenus page from the PON Wiki,

The acronym INRI (Iēsus Nazarēnus, Rēx Iūdaeōrum) represents the Latin inscription which in English reads as "Jesus the Nazarene, King of the Jews."