Two questions

[ummester]

These occurred to me watching season 1 of the show again, after recently completing the books. I don't think the show contradicts the books in these 2 areas, which left me with questions.

1) Did Dany die in Drogo's funeral pyre?

Only death can pay for life. 3 dragons were brought to life, which require 3 deaths. Dany sacrificed MMD and Drogo, who was the third?

The third can't be Dany's stillborn son because this death was used to pay for Drogo's second (worthless) life, which Dany sacrificed.

The only other person who could have been sacrificed in the fire for the dragon's to live was Dany - which has led me to believe that she must have died. Whether Dany remained dead or not is a separate issue - perhaps she was just reborn as the Unburnt Mother of Dragons or whatever - but I think it's hard to refute that she must have died for all 3 dragons to live.

2) If a criminal refuses to take their vows, can they leave the Wall?

Say if Jon decided not to take his Night's Watch vows, he would have been free to go, right? Nothing held him there but himself.

If a criminal is sent to the Wall as an option other than punishment and, when their training is complete, they refuse to take vows because they don't want to be bound to the Watch, can they leave?

[Lord Lannister]

1) I always figured Dany was the catalyst and her Targaryen blood initiated everything. Otherwise she could've just burned Drogo and left the eggs in there to hatch them. It really boils down to magic, so trying to qualify it in tangible terms is difficult. Dany really was "reborn" that day, which if she's the PtwP that would fit.

2) I'm rereading Game of Thrones and I noticed that line too. Jon certainly seems to have been able to leave if he wanted. But the criminals? I think they'd be sent back to their accusers.

[ummester]

Well, if Dany is reborn, in the literal sense it does require her to die first.

Re the criminals, yes, you would think they have to return to prison - but who is going to take them? I think there is a big missed opportunity for easy freedom by many of the criminals sent to the Wall :D

[corbon]

These occurred to me watching season 1 of the show again, after recently completing the books. I don't think the show contradicts the books in these 2 areas, which left me with questions.

1) Did Dany die in Drogo's funeral pyre?

Only death can pay for life. 3 dragons were brought to life, which require 3 deaths. Dany sacrificed MMD and Drogo, who was the third?

The third can't be Dany's stillborn son because this death was used to pay for Drogo's second (worthless) life, which Dany sacrificed.

The only other person who could have been sacrificed in the fire for the dragon's to live was Dany - which has led me to believe that she must have died. Whether Dany remained dead or not is a separate issue - perhaps she was just reborn as the Unburnt Mother of Dragons or whatever - but I think it's hard to refute that she must have died for all 3 dragons to live.

Drogo was already dead - Dany smothered him earlier.

I don't think the dragon eggs were 'dead', they just appeared that way to the uninitiated (ie everyone). So I don;t think that the only death can pay for life quote applies here at all.

Certainly there was only one death n that fire - MMD. Dany would have known if she'd died.

2) If a criminal refuses to take their vows, can they leave the Wall?

Say if Jon decided not to take his Night's Watch vows, he would have been free to go, right? Nothing held him there but himself.

If a criminal is sent to the Wall as an option other than punishment and, when their training is complete, they refuse to take vows because they don't want to be bound to the Watch, can they leave?

Jon could leave because he was a volunteer. Criminals would likely just have their normal sentence passed immediately - death for some, loss of a hand or similar for others if less than death (which might be a near death sentence anyway in the hard north that they do not know well enough to survive on their own, let alone with the loss of a limb). I doubt that there would be any bother to send them back where they came from.

[Eiko Dragonhorn]

The 3 sacrifices are obvious, she names the dragons after them.

Viserys, Rhaego, Drogo.

Why pretend there's some time limit on blood sacrifices? Is 5 seconds more realistic than 5 minutes? Than 5 hours? 5 days? 5 weeks? 5 months? 5 years?

Or if you want to think of it more directly...

- Dany sacrifices Viserys to protect her unborn son.

- Dany sacrifices her son for Drogo.

- Dany sacrifices Drogo for her dragons.

That's basically 3 stacked sacrifices that lead into the pyre.

[ummester]

Drogo was already dead - Dany smothered him earlier.

I don't think the dragon eggs were 'dead', they just appeared that way to the uninitiated (ie everyone). So I don;t think that the only death can pay for life quote applies here at all.

Certainly there was only one death n that fire - MMD. Dany would have known if she'd died.

Yes, Dany smothered Drogo earlier - but it was still a life she took, that was (ultimately) sacrificed in fire, to give life to a dragon. Why burn Drogo in the same pyre, if it was irrelevant?

MMD was also a life Dany took, sacrificed in fire, to give life to a dragon.

How 'dead' a magical entity like a dragon can be, before it is born, is of course debatable. But it seems undeniable that 3 humans went into a fire with 3 dragon eggs, after which the eggs hatched. If there is no correlation between the numbers, then Dany might as well have just burnt MMD alive, with the 3 eggs and watched from a safe distance.

Jon could leave because he was a volunteer. Criminals would likely just have their normal sentence passed immediately - death for some, loss of a hand or similar for others if less than death (which might be a near death sentence anyway in the hard north that they do not know well enough to survive on their own, let alone with the loss of a limb). I doubt that there would be any bother to send them back where they came from.

yes, that is a possible option, that the sentence would be carried out by the Watch if the criminal refused to take their vows. Easy to do in the case of beheading or amputation - so most criminals sentenced this way would be better off taking their vows. But, if the sentence was a year in the Kings landing dungeons - why would the Watch bother enforcing that at castle Black - the prisoner would become a burden.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Dany did not die.

Jon went to the wall on his own will. He could leave if he wanted to. Other men were given the choice to either join the Wall or die. If they didn't join, they they couldn't return home either. They were given black clothes as soon as they started training, so, they would be seen as deserters.

[ummester]

The 3 sacrifices are obvious, she names the dragons after them.

Viserys, Rhaego, Drogo.

Why pretend there's some time limit on blood sacrifices? Is 5 seconds more realistic than 5 minutes? Than 5 hours? 5 days? 5 weeks? 5 months? 5 years?

Or if you want to think of it more directly...

- Dany sacrifices Viserys to protect her unborn son.

- Dany sacrifices her son for Drogo.

- Dany sacrifices Drogo for her dragons.

That's basically 3 stacked sacrifices that lead into the pyre.

So what does MMD have to do with any of it and why did Dany have to walk into the flames?

Besides, Dany didn't sacrifice Viserys, she accepted Drogo killing him to protect her son - there is a difference. Also, Dany didn't sacrifice her son, she unwittingly allowed MMD to sacrifice him for Drogo.

Agree that the Dragons are named in line with the 3 people that Dany loved (or loved the idea of) and lost - the dragons are the spiritual rebirth of these people, so Dany loosing those people does have something to do with her emotional connection to the dragons. I don't think the death of these people represents witting sacrifices Dany made for her dragons, though.

[ummester]

Jon went to the wall on his own will. He could leave if he wanted to. Other men were given the choice to either join the Wall or die. If they didn't join, they they couldn't return home either. They were given black clothes as soon as they started training, so, they would be seen as deserters.

So why even bother with the vows? If you are instantly recruited on day 1 and are a deserter if you leave, even during training, the vows are a meaningless formality. You may be right in that this is exactly what the story is trying to say - that the Night Watch vows have been diluted and made meaningless over time.

Dany did not die.

Also, prove it :D Both the chapter in the book and the scene in the show cut out and return the morning after.

[Eiko Dragonhorn]

So what does MMD have to do with any of it and why did Dany have to walk into the flames?

Besides, Dany didn't sacrifice Viserys, she accepted Drogo killing him to protect her son - there is a difference. Also, Dany didn't sacrifice her son, she unwittingly allowed MMD to sacrifice him for Drogo.

Agree that the Dragons are named in line with the 3 people that Dany loved (or loved the idea of) and lost - the dragons are the spiritual rebirth of these people, so Dany loosing those people does have something to do with her emotional connection to the dragons. I don't think the death of these people represents witting sacrifices Dany made for her dragons, though.

You're basically arguing about the mechanics of a magic system you don't know anything about...

So my argument is then...

Dany never said "Abra Kadabra Allakhazam, I wish to sacrifice my man for a dragon! (pronounced Dragan to rhyme with man of course)"

If she didn't say the incantation, she can't the one who cast the spell, so who did... Oh I know, it must have been an alien looking at the events through a telescope on the moon.

Mystery solved.

[The Mother of The Others]

Wasn't it the horse sacrifice that paid for Drogo's extended life, not Rheago?

But then maybe the reason Drogo turned into a stillborn was because Danny walked into the tent and provided a new target for the life-leeching spell: Rhaego. (which is why she was warned not to enter the tent).

I also tend to think this kind of magic snafu happened again at the pyre. Mirri was trying to counterspell the fire to protect herself and then Danny wandered into the fire and stole the protection benefits away from the hapless spellcaster.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

So why even bother with the vows? If you are instantly recruited on day 1 and are a deserter if you leave, even during training, the vows are a meaningless formality. You may be right in that this is exactly what the story is trying to say - that the Night Watch vows have been diluted and made meaningless over time.

Why people swear on bibles? Why do they marry in front of the altar? Why do they get ordered as priests while laying on the floor? Because it means something for them, it represents making a vow in front of something you believe sacred. It's kinda the same with being a knight or join the Watch. Even though the Watch is not what it was, there is still some pride about belong to it, and for many of these people, who have lost everything or never had it, that sense of pride is important: they have given up their previous life and now they have become a community of brothers.

[ummester]

You're basically arguing about the mechanics of a magic system you don't know anything about...

So my argument is then...

Dany never said "Abra Kadabra Allakhazam, I wish to sacrifice my man for a dragon! (pronounced Dragan to rhyme with man of course)"

If she didn't say the incantation, she can't the one who cast the spell, so who did... Oh I know, it must have been an alien looking at the events through a telescope on the moon.

Mystery solved.

We know death must pay for life - this fundamental rule exists with all (human/fire/blood, 'bringing the dead to life') magic transactions in the book.

[ummester]

Why people swear on bibles? Why do they marry in front of the altar? Why do they get ordered as priests while laying on the floor? Because it means something for them, it represents making a vow in front of something you believe sacred. It's kinda the same with being a knight or join the Watch. Even though the Watch is not what it was, there is still some pride about belong to it, and for many of these people, who have lost everything or never had it, that sense of pride is important: they have given up their previous life and now they have become a community of brothers.

Yes and all that is fine for people who want that - or are looking for that. But a criminal who is sent there may not want brothers in some cold place. Yet these criminals take their vows anyway?

[ummester]

Wasn't it the horse sacrifice that paid for Drogo's extended life, not Rheago?

But then maybe the reason Drogo turned into a stillborn was because Danny walked into the tent and provided a new target for the life-leeching spell: Rhaego. (which is why she was warned not to enter the tent).

I also tend to think this kind of magic snafu happened again at the pyre. Mirri was trying to counterspell the fire to protect herself and then Danny wandered into the fire and stole the protection benefits away from the hapless spellcaster.

I thought the horse just initiated the spell, not that it was the actual sacrifice.

Dany does say 'show me what I have brought with my son's life', or something similar, in book and show.

I do think MMD was on her own tangent. She was trying to get Drogo into the fold of the Great Sheppard but when Drogo removed his poultice and dissed MMD's god, MMD decided that The Stallion Who Mounts the World would not have parenting in line with her requirements. This area the book made more clear than the show - that MMD was, initially, giving Drogo a chance but gave up on him.

If, in deed, it was Dany who caused the death of her son, by entering the tent at the wrong time, then he could be considered a sacrificial victim of Dany's. The baby corpse should have been put on the fire though.

[corbon]

Yes, Dany smothered Drogo earlier - but it was still a life she took, that was (ultimately) sacrificed in fire, to give life to a dragon. Why burn Drogo in the same pyre, if it was irrelevant?

MMD was also a life Dany took, sacrificed in fire, to give life to a dragon.

You can't have it both ways. Either the deaths were in the pyre, or they are not specifically relevant to the pyre event.

Note that the whole event is not a carefully designed magical ritual. Its actually a funeral pyre - that is why Drogo is there. MMD is there because Dany blames her for Drogo's death so its a murder-punishment with significance to Drogo. The eggs are there out of instinct and that she has no further use for them - its like the end of all things for her at that point. Dany herself joining the pyre seems to be an unplanned, unknowing and instinctual event.

There is a detailed analysis somewhere about how it is maybe actually MMD's magic that sets everything off - she's casting a spell with her chanting abut the Targaryen fire/blood magic is stronger and takes over. I don't remember all the details, but you might find it worth your while to search for it.

How 'dead' a magical entity like a dragon can be, before it is born, is of course debatable.

Well, I loosely posit that 'mother' dragon's fire and warmth is an integral part of dragon egg hatching. Lacking that warmth and/or regular flame-bathing the eggs have 'withdrawn their heat' deep into their core, making them appear inert rocks, but its merely a survival mechanism similar to hibernation. They were never actually dead. Perhaps.

Then the combination of fire and active sorcery awoke them all at once.

But it seems undeniable that 3 humans went into a fire with 3 dragon eggs, after which the eggs hatched. If there is no correlation between the numbers, then Dany might as well have just burnt MMD alive, with the 3 eggs and watched from a safe distance.

She was burning Drogo as a funeral ritual, MMD as a punishment associated directly with Drogo's death, and herself not at all. Something unplanned happened and she went into the fire as well, but was unharmed.

yes, that is a possible option, that the sentence would be carried out by the Watch if the criminal refused to take their vows. Easy to do in the case of beheading or amputation - so most criminals sentenced this way would be better off taking their vows. But, if the sentence was a year in the Kings landing dungeons - why would the Watch bother enforcing that at castle Black - the prisoner would become a burden.

I don't think you get sent to the wall for such lowly crimes. If you choose to go then the Watch would surely use you as a worker, if not a full NW Brother, for the duration of the sentence then you are on your own. I guess. I very much doubt there is any 'avoid my sentence by going to the wall and not saying the vows' loophole.

We know death must pay for life - this fundamental rule exists with all (human/fire/blood, 'bringing the dead to life') magic transactions in the book.

Not sure we do know this.

What we don't know is that life was, in this case, 'purchased'. It may well have already existed (unknown to all) and only needed certain not-death (fire) magic to let it come forth, so to speak.

[Kienn]

The 3 sacrifices are obvious, she names the dragons after them.

Viserys, Rhaego, Drogo.

Why pretend there's some time limit on blood sacrifices? Is 5 seconds more realistic than 5 minutes? Than 5 hours? 5 days? 5 weeks? 5 months? 5 years?

Or if you want to think of it more directly...

- Dany sacrifices Viserys to protect her unborn son.

- Dany sacrifices her son for Drogo.

- Dany sacrifices Drogo for her dragons.

That's basically 3 stacked sacrifices that lead into the pyre.

This.

There is power in Kin's blood. Sacrificing someone important to the sacrificer is what gives magic its power (see faceless men payments).

As for time limits... Some people really do like to impose the rules of magic from other sources (books, movies, video games, etc). Agree it's pretty dumb.

All I hope for in magic is internal consistency. Sadly most works fail pretty badly at this. Hoping GRRM can pull it off.

[ummester]

I don't think you get sent to the wall for such lowly crimes. If you choose to go then the Watch would surely use you as a worker, if not a full NW Brother, for the duration of the sentence then you are on your own. I guess. I very much doubt there is any 'avoid my sentence by going to the wall and not saying the vows' loophole.

So, wether they say the vows or not, some members of the Nights Watch just might have to stay? Even if their crimes stop them from deserting, on pain of death - if they haven't taken the vows they can't be held accountable for the others things, like fathering no children.

There is a disconnect here that I never noticed before. The Wall has become (mostly) a prison, or place for society's unwanted men. Yet they vow to uphold something? They take an oath defend certain principles. If the oath is forced, it would seem meaningless - like getting a lying kleptomaniac to promise they won't steel again - what's the point?

It makes me think that the vows are older than what the Night's Watch has become. That the kind of men populating the Watch now aren't the kind that it was originally intended for.

She was burning Drogo as a funeral ritual, MMD as a punishment associated directly with Drogo's death, and herself not at all. Something unplanned happened and she went into the fire as well, but was unharmed.

She wasn't unharmed - all her hair burnt off.

So the basic gist of what you suspect about the dragons hatching is that they weren't dead and it was a kind of random event, or event where the elements needed to facilitate it are not known.

BTW, I wasn't trying to have it both ways.

Sacrifice being someone who Dany killed (Drogo Mk11, MMD, possibly son, possibly herself). Place and time of death is irrelevant.

Burnt at Pyre being any human burnt at the pyre.

As mentioned above, why didn't Dany put her son's corpse on the Pyre with Drogo? Why didn't her son even get a funeral?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

yes, that is a possible option, that the sentence would be carried out by the Watch if the criminal refused to take their vows. Easy to do in the case of beheading or amputation - so most criminals sentenced this way would be better off taking their vows. But, if the sentence was a year in the Kings landing dungeons - why would the Watch bother enforcing that at castle Black - the prisoner would become a burden.

Such sentences don't exist in the Westerosi legal system. Imprisonment as punishment is a rather recent phenomen. Criminals are only held until they are tried or physically punished.

It makes me think that the vows are older than what the Night's Watch has become. That the kind of men populating the Watch now aren't the kind that it was originally intended for.

Of course, that is a given. It's been explicitly stated a couple of times.

[corbon]

It makes me think that the vows are older than what the Night's Watch has become. That the kind of men populating the Watch now aren't the kind that it was originally intended for.

Err, yeah, thats more or less explicit in the books.

She wasn't unharmed - all her hair burnt off.

Which isn't being harmed, just cosmetic.

So the basic gist of what you suspect about the dragons hatching is that they weren't dead and it was a kind of random event, or event where the elements needed to facilitate it were not know.

Well yeah. Not that I know anything special. Or insist (or even strongly suggest) that this idea is true (its just an idea, a reasonable possibility). But its a logical/reasonable expectation that 'natural' dragon egg maturing/hatching process involves lots of heat, maybe flame, usually supplied by an adult dragon. And clearly that is not available and has been 'gone' for over a hundred years.

And the whole 'petrified' dragon eggs things is definitely unreliable narration (which is not to say definitely wrong, just not necessarily right). The people who say that don't actually have any real knowledge of dragons or their eggs, just what their senses can currently tell them.

As to the event, it was clearly somewhat random. Dany didn't have any knowledge about dragons, or hatching their eggs. Indeed, such knowledge had been lost even to the main Targaryen line long before they lost control of Westeros. So it can only be a combination of random elements and mystical intervention that 'got lucky', so to speak, rather than a deliberate, planned, foreknown effort to hatch the dragons.

BTW, I wasn't trying to have it both ways.

Sacrifice being someone who Dany killed (Drogo Mk11, MMD, possibly son, possibly herself). Place and time of death is irrelevant.

Burnt at Pyre being any human burnt at the pyre.

But its you who are choosing to define those things, then complaining when they don't fit.

If it doesn't fit then its the definition that is wrong. No use inventing new facts to make your definition fit (like Dany dying).

As mentioned above, why didn't Dany put her son's corpse on the Pyre with Drogo? Why didn't her son even get a funeral?

Because his body was dealt with while she was still unconscious, in an effort to prevent her from learning about his deformities.

She wasn't trying to twist things to fit your theoretic construct for her magic (she wasn't even trying to do magic, consciously, it just happened). Try twisting your theory to fit the facts instead?