Two questions

[ummester]

But its you who are choosing to define those things, then complaining when they don't fit.

If it doesn't fit then its the definition that is wrong. No use inventing new facts to make your definition fit (like Dany dying).

This may be true.

I don't mind that all of the human interaction in ASoIaF/GoTs is relevant to a given perspective - but I would prefer events to have an inherent logic and not be open to interpretation.

If Dany's dragons were a random hatching, that is never explained in full - why couldn't it happen with anyone, at any time?

I was going with the precondition that death must pay for life as being a constant magical transaction within the world of ASoIaF and that the dragon eggs were fossilized with equally fossilized/non-living dragon embryos inside. Given these things, I was asking what 3 deaths paid for the dragons to overcome their death and live.

[Starks of Winter]

Dany did not die.

Jon went to the wall on his own will. He could leave if he wanted to. Other men were given the choice to either join the Wall or die. If they didn't join, they they couldn't return home either. They were given black clothes as soon as they started training, so, they would be seen as deserters.

:agree: :agree: :agree:

[John Suburbs]

Rhaego's and Drogo's bodies were both dead, but until they are consumed by fire their souls have not departed to ride across the night sky, so in that regard they could have been the deaths, along with MMR, that paid for the dragon's lives.

[corbon]

This may be true.

I don't mind that all of the human interaction in ASoIaF/GoTs is relevant to a given perspective - but I would prefer events to have an inherent logic and not be open to interpretation.

If Dany's dragons were a random hatching, that is never explained in full - why couldn't it happen with anyone, at any time?

I was going with the precondition that death must pay for life as being a constant magical transaction within the world of ASoIaF and that the dragon eggs were fossilized with equally fossilized/non-living dragon embryos inside. Given these things, I was asking what 3 deaths paid for the dragons to overcome their death and live.

Not random, as such, but an unknowing, or unplanned occurrence. The right factors still had to be involved.

Apparently/maybe dragon eggs, dragon blood, fire, sorcery, maybe in a certain mix, maybe the sacrifice was significant, maybe not (personally I doubt it, since there was only 1 death, but maybe 1 death is enough to power the sorcery or something, who can tell?). Dany supplied the bloodline, MMD the sorcery, the funeral pyre the fire and the eggs were there.

Note that the Targaryens had been trying to do this for quite a while with no success. Some thought is that that is what happened at Summerhall - a failed attempt that turned into catastrophe. Maybe the failed attempts lacked the sorcery factor?

We know so little for sure, and have a sample size of 1, so we literally cannot even speculate effectively.

I doubt there have been many 'possibilities' even before this. A few Targaryen failures, but how many dragon eggs are there around the world? Very few. And they are extremely valuable, so how many people tried to burn them? Even fewer I bet. And how many of those people had dragon blood? Even fewer I bet. With a real sorceress as well? A living sacrifice?

Its not at all surprising that this is the first known success since the (known) adult dragons died out.

[corbon]

Rhaego's and Drogo's bodies were both dead, but until they are consumed by fire their souls have not departed to ride across the night sky, so in that regard they could have been the deaths, along with MMR, that paid for the dragon's lives.

Was Rhaego in the fire? I thought his body was disposed of while Dany was unconscious from the birth, so she didn't have to see his horrific deformities...

[John Suburbs]

Was Rhaego in the fire? I thought his body was disposed of while Dany was unconscious from the birth, so she didn't have to see his horrific deformities...

Yes, to buy into this, you would have to believe that Rhaego's body was in there too, even though it is not explicitly stated in the text.

So then, we look at the dragon's actions and behavior to try and analyze their personalities: I see Drogon as Drogo, obviously, because of his size and his strong will. Rhaegal would be MMR, because she is kind of aloof and inscrutable, almost as if she is angry or mistrustful of Dany. And Viserion is Rhaego because he is most clingy to Dany, almost like a small child always reaching for his mother. Even Quentyn notices this when Vis heads right over to Pretty Meris in the dragon pit.

[corbon]

Yes, to buy into this, you would have to believe that Rhaego's body was in there too, even though it is not explicitly stated in the text.

So we are going to invent facts that are counter to what the text indicates, in order to suit our theory then?

[John Suburbs]

All theories are based on extrapolations from the text. If you have a theory that is clearly and unequivocally stated in the text, it is not a theory, it's a fact.

So if the idea is that only death could pay for the dragon's lives -- which is not stated in the text either, at least in reference to dragons -- then here are three possible candidates that would provide those deaths other than Dany's death and rebirth, which also is not stated in the text.

Also, the idea that Rhaego's body was placed in the pier is not counter to the text. The text is silent on the matter. No mention is made of what they did with his remains.

If people can accept that Drogon is the living embodiment of Drogo because of the way he acts, even though Drogo was already dead when he was placed atop the pier, then I submit Rhaegel could be MMR and Viserion could be Rhaego because of the way they act.

[ummester]

If Rhaego's remains were placed in the fire with Drogo, which actually would be kind of fitting and romantic in the sense that Dany burnt her unborn son with his twice dead father, then the death must pay for life thing could hold, even with the dragons and without Dany dying.

Thinking on it, I would have preferred if that was included in the text and show - just a line, like 'put the remains of my son next to his father'

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

1) I always figured Dany was the catalyst and her Targaryen blood initiated everything. Otherwise she could've just burned Drogo and left the eggs in there to hatch them. It really boils down to magic, so trying to qualify it in tangible terms is difficult. Dany really was "reborn" that day, which if she's the PtwP that would fit.

If you read the passage, the eggs have already started to hatch before she goes into the fire fully.

And something else came to crashing down, bouncing and rolling, to land at her feet; a chunk of curved rock, pale and veined with gold, broken and smoldering.

This is Viserion's shell; he was the first egg to hatch. Then there's a second crack, people are freaking out and then she steps "forward into the firestorm, calling to her children." Then the third and final egg hatches. But they were hatching before she was actually in the fire.

The 3 sacrifices are obvious, she names the dragons after them.

Viserys, Rhaego, Drogo.

Except that Rhaegal is named for Rhaegar, not Rhaego.

"... The green one shall be Rhaegal, for my valiant brother who died on the green banks of the trident. ..."

[ummester]

If you read the passage, the eggs have already started to hatch before she goes into the fire fully.

This is Viserion's shell; he was the first egg to hatch. Then there's a second crack, people are freaking out and then she steps "forward into the firestorm, calling to her children." Then the third and final egg hatches. But they were hatching before she was actually in the fire.

Except that Rhaegal is named for Rhaegar, not Rhaego.

So what caused them to hatch/start hatching?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

So what caused them to hatch/start hatching?

I think it was a combination of the fire and Mirri being a blood sacrifice. She's noted to have gone silent (read: dead) before the eggs hatch.

I actually think it was a two-step process: Rhaego's life force is swapped into the dead eggs, which is why he's said to look long dead when he's born. The death in the eggs swapped into the baby, so that the eggs came alive again and the baby was dead. I think the horse really did swap in for Drogo, which is why he seemed to have no higher consciousness despite being alive. Step two is Mirri dying in the fire so that they hatch.

So Rhaego had a role in the eggs becoming alive again but not in their hatching; Drogo had nothing to do with it apart from being the reason for the fire; and Mirri is the one whose death actually catalyzed the hatching.

[ummester]

I think it was a combination of the fire and Mirri being a blood sacrifice. She's noted to have gone silent (read: dead) before the eggs hatch.

I actually think it was a two-step process: Rhaego's life force is swapped into the dead eggs, which is why he's said to look long dead when he's born. The death in the eggs swapped into the baby, so that the eggs came alive again and the baby was dead. I think the horse really did swap in for Drogo, which is why he seemed to have no higher consciousness despite being alive. Step two is Mirri dying in the fire so that they hatch.

So Rhaego had a role in the eggs becoming alive again but not in their hatching; Drogo had nothing to do with it apart from being the reason for the fire; and Mirri is the one whose death actually catalyzed the hatching.

Makes sense, accepting that human's need a 1 for 1 swap and dragons don't.

Also, it could suggest that the reason Dany lost her son is that she more wanted/was geared towards motherring dragons than a human child, or something similar.

[Eiko Dragonhorn]

Except that Rhaegal is named for Rhaegar, not Rhaego.

If A = B, and B = C

then A = C

Or... literary techniques.

Is it really so hard to figure out?

[The Mother of The Others]

Yes, to buy into this, you would have to believe that Rhaego's body was in there too, even though it is not explicitly stated in the text.

Rheago's soul could be thought of as a package deal with Drogo's body & soul, along for the ride. If you read the spell-gone-awry as hooking pinching and swirling their two spirits together so that they were a muddied stream of conjoined souls like two rivers that would never be distinct again. Hence, if Drogo's body is present in the fire you can say both of their lost lives are "represented" in the sacrifice.

I like the Applish idea of Rheago's life force paying to activate all 3 eggs, too, though. Since it is a single litter of dragon eggs, a single death act could wash over the eggs to bring about a single quickening event. What sort of speaks against this is how elsewhere in time we see two generations of royals sacrificed in the attempt to raise dragons as if more than a single life is needed to wake them.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

If A = B, and B = C

then A = C

Or... literary techniques.

Is it really so hard to figure out?

How about you just accept that you got the name inspiration wrong and move on? It's right there, explicitly in the text: Rhaegal is named for Rhaegar. That Rhaego is too doesn't mean she was thinking of him when she named the dragon. Otherwise she would've said, "This one is Rhaegal for my brother and son." The main reason the green dragon is Rhaegal is because Rhaegar died on the green banks of the Trident. Rhaegar is the dragon's primary inspiration, not Rhaego. We're all wrong sometimes, get over it.

[Eiko Dragonhorn]

How about you just accept that you got the name inspiration wrong and move on? It's right there, explicitly in the text: Rhaegal is named for Rhaegar. That Rhaego is too doesn't mean she was thinking of him when she named the dragon. Otherwise she would've said, "This one is Rhaegal for my brother and son." The main reason the green dragon is Rhaegal is because Rhaegar died on the green banks of the Trident. Rhaegar is the dragon's primary inspiration, not Rhaego. We're all wrong sometimes, get over it.

You're funny.