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The Cultural Influences in Planetos


Jon Snoww

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(I already posted this topic on the regular forum but this one has some info from WOIAF) So I thought a cool topic would be to talk about the different cultural influences in the world of Ice and Fire. I know this thread has probably been done but I would really like to put my view out there.



Westeros



The North: Many people on the Internet believe the north to be based off of medieval Russian or Scandinavia. I however believe that it has many similarities to Celtic culture. For example many of the prominent mythological elements in north culture (such as the Children of the Forest) are based of the Fae. He takes a lot of the events that happened in the medieval Celtic nations [scotland, Ireland, Cornwall, Wales, the Isle of Man and Brittany (region of France)] and translated it into Northern History. It may in some ways resemble medieval Scandinavia yet I feel as if GRRM took most of his inspiration from the medieval celtic nations.



The Iron Islands: This one is easy, I believe GRRM actually said in one of his interviews that he based the Iron Islanders off of the Norse (or Scandinavian or Vikings if you prefer). They have many obvious similarities: they are not an agrarian society, they have a very maritime based society and they terrorized an entire continent for the better part of a century. Even the Kraken, the sigil of house Greyjoy, is based off of the Kraken of Norse Mythology.



The Riverlands: Now this is harder, when getting into the southern areas of Westeros I find GRRM liked to mix up a lot of the medieval european countries. In the Riverlands however I believe that medieval England is most prominent. I base this mainly of the fact that it still has many culturally northern/celtic aspects it is much different, and England much like the Riverlands were attacked by the Iron islanders/Norsemen. That isn't to say that there aren't any english aspects in any of the other regions



The Vale, Westerlands, Reach, Crownlands, and Stormlands: This is where GRRM really decided just to mix medieval Europe all up. Germany, France, Italy, and England all together. One could argue that the Reach is more French than anything else but personally I don't really care all that much. The Stormlands, and the Vale have a more anglo-germanic essence in my mind, while the Westerlands is purely culture, and the Crownlands an mixture of Italy, France, and England (not so much German)



Dorne: Dorne, in my mind at least, resembles Spain. Located in the southern part of each of the continents both Spain and Dorne were "conquered by foreign invaders, taking many of their customs and integrating them into their own culture. Both Dorne and Spain have had many feuds with northern kingdoms like France/Reach.



North of the Wall: I feel like north of the wall is a mixture of Inuit, Celtic, and somewhat Scandinavian, and even less Siberian (not Russian). The climate of north of the wall really dictates several of the cultures GRRM uses for this. He still keeps with the Celtic culture because the cultures of the North, and North of the Wall are similar. However I do believe that there is more Inuit, Scandinavian, and Siberian evident than in the North.



Essos



Valyria: Before I dive into the vast cultural expansion of Essos, I want to touch on the one of the major i building blocks of Essos. Valyria is an accumulation of Eastern and Western Cultures. The Main Cultures I seem to find when trying to figure out what civilizations best represent Valyria, are Rome and Greece, first and foremost. Valyria, much like Rome (and somewhat like Greece) is a large empire and made several advances in technology, however I don't think that Greece and Rome alone describe Valyria. Valyria also resembles medieval european cultures, we know that the Valyrian steel swords resemble those being used centuries later in the seven kingdoms. Valyria is a mixture of Rome, Greece, and medieval Europe aswell as fantasy elements the GRRM decided to put in.



The Free Cities: I think the Free cities (except for Braavos) most represent the warring city-states of ancient Greece. It doesn't matter which is which only that they have similar tactics, advanced technology, and no central government. However I think Valyria was really the one that seemed the most greek, now I would say they are really the most indistinct mixture of Greece, Rome, Byzantium, Ottoman empire, and Persia.



Slavers Bay: Slavers bay, much like the Free cities are very hard to identify. I would say that it would be much like the Free Cities (Greek, Roman, Byzantine, Persian, and Ottoman) but a little different, much like Egypt, medieval India, or evenChina. However overall the difference between them and the Free Cities is slight.



Dothraki: Many say that the Dothraki are said to be solely based upon the Mongol empire, however the mongols were well armored and the dothraki are described as wearing little to no armor. No doubt that they do have many similarities but I would also factor in cultures such early Egyptian, Hittite, or even some native american tribes such as the Lakota, Sioux, Comanche, and Apache. The Weapon of choice for the Dothraki: the arakh (as depicted on the show) is very similar to both the Hittite and Egyptian Kopesh swords. Others say that the Dothraki resemble Huns however this also doesn't make very much sense. The huns, much like the Mongols wore Lamalar armor, much heavier and constricting than the painted vests of the Dothraki. I'm an not saying that the dothraki do not resemble both Hun and Mongol culture but the Hittite, Lakota, Sioux, Comanche, and even the Apache.



Braavos: Nearly every description I've done so far has talked about a mixture of cultures, in Braavos it is the most indistinct of all. Many compare Braavos to Venice, I would agree that it resemble venice but also it has hints of Mongolia, Greek, Ottoman and Roman. Overall however Braavos represents a colder, and less inviting Venice.



Yi Ti: Many speculate that Yi Ti is based on ancient China, and seeing how little info. we have on it I guess I would agree. I think that south-east asian and Indian culture is also visable in the little we heard about Yi Ti. So southern China is the best bet on where it's culture may have derived from.



Asshai: In this rare instance I think GRRM decided to completely create a culture that was just pure Fantasy. I do not believe Asshai actually has any counterpart in the real world.



Others



The Summer Islands: I would have to say the major influences I think GRRM used would be that of the Chiefdoms of Hawaii, Maori, and central african tribes such as the Zande. The forest environment and islands are very reminiscent of the environment found in Hawaii, and New Zealand. Many of the weapons GRRM described are likely based on the war clubs of the Maori and Zande. The Adversity towards slavery is also reminiscent of the Zande.



Ibben: Much like the Wildlings the Ibbeneese culture resembles Inuit, and Siberian culture. They are known as whalers much like the Inuits and often carry axes. Because of the lack of info. I cannot further progress my opinion.



Feel free to include parts of the world I didn't touch on and feel free to post about your disagreement with me.


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I agree for the most part. Quarth and the Ghiscari are imho based on Carthage (similiar tech level, slavery and trade are important, and Quart Hadast sounds/looks kinda similiar) and Valyria on ancient rome (old nation twith superior tech level that conquered the world and ultimately was destroyed, influenced many successor states and built good roads, economy based on slavery). The wars mentioned between the latter two and Valyria hint to that too imho.



Yi Ti= China or southern asia makes sense imho.


Summer Isands= what you said and the carribean.


Free Cities= Ancient Greece, maybe renaissance Italy.


Ibben= Greenland and Sibiria.


Braavos= mostly Venice



The Ironborn resemble the vikings and the Northeners celts/medieval scotts most, the Reach might be France, Dorne is definitely spain, I agree. The Vale might be Austria?



But I think for the rest of the seven kingdoms it makes more sense to compare real life dyasties to the Lord Paramounts, instead of countries to kingdoms.


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I don't really see much of an Egyptian influence on the Dothraki. To me they seem like sort of an amalgamation of all the different plains and steppe nomads throughout history. Both those of the Eurasian steppe and the Great Plains of North America.



And I think Sarnor might have something of a Mesopotamian/Egyptian influence. A civilization based around a river, and who used chariots in warfare.


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I don't really see much of an Egyptian influence on the Dothraki. To me they seem like sort of an amalgamation of all the different plains and steppe nomads throughout history. Both those of the Eurasian steppe and the Great Plains of North America.

And I think Sarnor might have something of a Mesopotamian/Egyptian influence. A civilization based around a river, and who used chariots in warfare.

I was wrong when I said Egyptian I was more thinking along the lines of Hittite.

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The North - is much more Northern England/Scotland. The Scandinavian thing is only in population levels.



The Riverlands - I've actually gotten much more of a Polish vibe off the Riverlands - few natural defenses, lots of powerful neighbors, constantly being used as a battlefield or turned into a vassal state.



The Vale - Wales, post-English conquest. A land of mountains and valleys, ruled over by an invading population who use castles to dominate the area, with the natives pushed up into remote highlands.



The Reach - Medieval France. GRRM's been quite outspoken about this one. Center of chivalry and minstrel culture, hugely fertile, it's even got a Spain equivalent on its Pyrenees equivalent border.



The Westerlands - I'd say closer to Germany, especially the Ruhr. Lots of skilled craftsmen and mining.



Stormlands - the English marches, both Welsh and Scottish. Border region, frequent targets of invasion, skilled archers, rains all the time.



Dorne - again, GRRM's been pretty clear on this one. Moorish Spain.



Valyria - essentially Rome crossed with Atlantis crossed with Melniboné.



Free Cities - Renaissance Italy for the most part.



Slaver's Bay - mostly Carthage, bit of Mesopotamia, bit of Rome.



Dothraki - I would say a bit closer to Huns than Mongols, with a bit of plains Native American.



Braavos - a mix of Amsterdam and Venice.



Yi-Ti - mostly China of the Warring Kingdoms.



Ib - Cro-magnons, not homo sapiens.

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The North - is much more Northern England/Scotland. The Scandinavian thing is only in population levels.

The Riverlands - I've actually gotten much more of a Polish vibe off the Riverlands - few natural defenses, lots of powerful neighbors, constantly being used as a battlefield or turned into a vassal state.

The Vale - Wales, post-English conquest. A land of mountains and valleys, ruled over by an invading population who use castles to dominate the area, with the natives pushed up into remote highlands.

The Reach - Medieval France. GRRM's been quite outspoken about this one. Center of chivalry and minstrel culture, hugely fertile, it's even got a Spain equivalent on its Pyrenees equivalent border.

The Westerlands - I'd say closer to Germany, especially the Ruhr. Lots of skilled craftsmen and mining.

Stormlands - the English marches, both Welsh and Scottish. Border region, frequent targets of invasion, skilled archers, rains all the time.

Dorne - again, GRRM's been pretty clear on this one. Moorish Spain.

Valyria - essentially Rome crossed with Atlantis crossed with Melniboné.

Free Cities - Renaissance Italy for the most part.

Slaver's Bay - mostly Carthage, bit of Mesopotamia, bit of Rome.

Dothraki - I would say a bit closer to Huns than Mongols, with a bit of plains Native American.

Braavos - a mix of Amsterdam and Venice.

Yi-Ti - mostly China of the Warring Kingdoms.

Ib - Cro-magnons, not homo sapiens.

Did you read what I said? Most of these points I actually agree with you on I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make. Many of the points I think you're saying I disagree with you, but if you had read it you would know I don't. North: I said it's major influence was Celtic. Besides a few, I think we actually agree. You also seem to be taking this from a political standpoint not cultural.

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The dothraki resemble huns and turkic people. The jogos nhai are more mongol imo.

Did you read the post about the dothraki? I feel like everyone is just reading the first culture I put an dthink thats what I'm talking about in that entire paragraph. This is what I said about the Dothraki:

Dothraki: Many say that the Dothraki are said to be solely based upon the Mongol empire, however the mongols were well armored and the dothraki are described as wearing little to no armor. No doubt that they do have many similarities but I would also factor in cultures such early Egyptian, Hittite, or even some native american tribes such as the Lakota, Sioux, Comanche, and Apache. The Weapon of choice for the Dothraki: the arakh (as depicted on the show) is very similar to both the Hittite and Egyptian Kopesh swords. Others say that the Dothraki resemble Huns however this also doesn't make very much sense. The huns, much like the Mongols wore Lamalar armor, much heavier and constricting than the painted vests of the Dothraki. I'm an not saying that the dothraki do not resemble both Hun and Mongol culture but the Hittite, Lakota, Sioux, Comanche, and even the Apache.

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Did you read what I said? Most of these points I actually agree with you on I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make. Many of the points I think you're saying I disagree with you, but if you had read it you would know I don't. North: I said it's major influence was Celtic. Besides a few, I think we actually agree. You also seem to be taking this from a political standpoint not cultural.

Yes, I did read what you said.

re the North: my point was that there's also quite a bit of Northern England as well - i;e, non-Celtic influences.

I disagree with you about the Riverlands, Stormlands, Vale, Crownlands. And in Essos, I disagree with you about Valyria, the Free Cities, Slaver's Bay, the Dothraki, and Braavos.

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I think that the Ibben are supposed to be Siberians or Native North Americans (as in Inuit)- I'm pretty sure the text mentions whaling. (Still could be Neanderthals. Wouldn't be a huge step from dire wolves).



Anyone find cultural counterparts in our world for any of the following?


-The maester's order


-The Thenns


-The Night's Watch


I have a couple guesses on the maesters (Dominican monks?) but maybe someone with better knowledge of medieval history has a better idea.


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The North: mix of Scotland, northern England, Scandinavia among other things


Iron Islands: Vikings


The Riverlands: The Rhineland and other river areas in Europe


The Reach: France


The Vale: mix of several things. I see some of Gaul during the Roman invasion in the stories about the Andal invasion of the Vale. Robar II, the last Bromze king has some Vercinatagorx vibes. The Vale also have similarities with Wales, as mentioned.


other Andal kingdoms: mix of European cultures with some British culture mostly. Different marches for the Stormlands is a good bet. Both English marches against their celtic neighbors and German marches against the Slavs.


Dorne: traits from Spanish, Andalusi, Ancient Greek and Welsh culture.



Free Cities: mix of Ancient Greece and Rennaisance Italy and so much more. The northern Free Cities gives you the puritan settler vibe, with them being founded by religious emigrants (Qohor, Norvos and Lorath).

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The North: Scotland


The Westerlands: England


Dorne: Islamic Spain, Islamic Sicily, People of Levant.


The Vale: Duchy of Swabia (part of Holy Roman Empire. Mountains, Proud, pure German/rhine blood)


The Stormlands: The Saxons


The Reach: France, Holy Roman Empire


The Riverlands: Central Germany, Northern Italy


Braavos: Venice


Other Free cities: Swiss confederacy, Italian renaissance city states, ancient Greek city states


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The North: Scotland

The Westerlands: England

Dorne: Islamic Spain, Islamic Sicily, People of Levant.

The Vale: Duchy of Swabia (part of Holy Roman Empire. Mountains, Proud, pure German/rhine blood)

The Stormlands: The Saxons

The Reach: France, Holy Roman Empire

The Riverlands: Central Germany, Northern Italy

Braavos: Venice

Other Free cities: Swiss confederacy, Italian renaissance city states, ancient Greek city states

Good list. Only one point: the vale seems very alpine to me, swabia not. I live in stuttgart (once swabia) and here are no high alpine mountains. Compared with what i was used ti from my home country (spain, andalusia) the swabian mountains are more like hills. Germany in general is not very mountainous (only a small southernmost strip of bavaria, which is part of the alps)

I know people sometimes confuse austria or switzerland with germany because they speak german. These are very mountainous, but not germany. France, italy and spain for example have much more mountains. Just look at a topographic map of europe ;)

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well, the whole thing is complicated a bit, because Westeros is both the British Isles (in terms of politics, reputation, etc.) and Continental Western Europe (in terms of climates and various cultures) which is why Dorne can be both Wales and Moorish Spain, and how the "Roman" Valyrians can be Norman conquerors.



I get that the Free Cities are Italian city-states, but are there any good one-to-one match ups? (Besides Braavos-Venice, I mean)


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Ooooh! Forgot:



Saw a lot of guesses for the Ghiscari and Slaver's Bay, but I think they're most likely based on the Berber states of North Africa (Tunisia, Morocco, that kind of place). Kudos to Martin for bringing in such an obscure culture.



...which historically were the remnants of Carthage (like Ghis), so Vikingkingq is pretty much on the nose.


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North of the Wall: circumpolar; bride kidnapping is from the Caucasus



North: geographically Russia (huge & cold w/ arable land, forests & mountains); culturally Northern England & Scotland; White Harbor as one of the Baltic port cities



Riverlands: Poland, b/c fertile w/ rivers & no natural defenses & thus often conquered; also like Rhineland & English Midlands, w/ maybe a touch of Ireland (dominated by foreigners; Tully is an Irish name & they have red hair & blue eyes; also Brendan (Brynden) is an Irish name)



Westerlands: culturally & politically like Plantagenet England (Tywin as Edward I); economically like Germany (German economy in High/Late Middle Ages based on silver mining; Lannisport like one of the Hanseatic port cities; geographically like Southwestern England (very hilly but with no big mountains, mines); also geographically like Central California (hilly, full of gold, rocky coast; Lannisport inspired by San Francisco?)



Reach: France all the way (fertile, mild climate, largest population, center of chivalry)



Vale: Geographically most like Alps (very high mountains w/ fertile valleys), also stay out of most wars like Switzerland; some of Scotland too (conflict b/w mountain clans & valley)



Crownlands: Southeastern England, w/ KL as London



Stormlands: mostly Germany, w/ Rainwood as Black Forest and stormy coast as the Baltic; also Sweden (forests, amber, battered coast w/ surprisingly mild climate)



Iron Islands: Viking culturally; iron mines are Sweden; lack of arable land is Norway



Dorne: geographically like American Southwest (Red Mountains, desert w/ rivers, I. e. Colorado, Rio Grande, spicy food, poisonous snakes); some Moorish Spanish influence; equal primogeniture is Basque (and there have been a number of Spanish queens regnant); geographically a bit like Palestine, w/ Greenblood as Jordan River



Rhoynar: Culturally somewhat like Hindus who worship the Ganges; search for new homeland like Jewish Diaspora after Romans (Valyrians) sacked Jerusalem



Valyria: Roman Republic, w/ upper-class incest from Egypt; also some of Michael Moorcock's Melnibone



Volantis: Constantinople (largest and most powerful remnant of Valyrian/Roman Empire; very important port; huge slave economy); tigers and elephants are Indian



Braavos: Venice w/ some Amsterdam



Norvos: Siena (inland, terraced hills as Tuscany)



Qohor: geographically like Novgorod or Kiev (landlocked, surrounded by forest); special steel like Damascus; Black Goat religion reminds me of Satan worship



Tyrosh: Genoa (greedy & unscrupulous traders & not much culture)



Myr: Florence?



Lys: no RL place, just one big blond brothel



Old Ghis: Carthage, Assyria (pyramids/ziggurats); legions are Roman



Slaver's Bay: Barbary slave trade; Slave Coast of West Africa; slave trading cities on Swahili coast of East Africa & Zanzibar; tokar is like Roman toga, Indian sari & Assyrian clothing (especially fringes); fighting pits are Roman gladiator games



Summer Isles: Carribean & Polynesia



Dothraki: Huns, Comanche (Dothraki look like Plains Indians); Dothraki sea is Eurasian steppe, w/ Womb of the World as Lake Baikal; also like Crimean Tartars, who kidnapped Slavs from the steppe to sell as slaves on the ports of the Black Sea (Slaver's Bay); NOT Mongols, who were sophisticated empire builders who abolished torture & established religious freedom



Jogos Nhai: Scythians (women warriors) & Huns (cranial deformation)



Lhazar: Israelites/early Christians (monotheist; Christian idea of God as shepherd; Israelites herded sheep in hilly, semi-arid land; neither good at defending themselves from predators)



Qarth: Carthage (great port surrounded by desert, pagan); also Babylon, esp. gates; controls straits like Constantinople



Yi Ti: China obviously



Leng: Vietnam (partly Chinese occupied/influenced, partly independent, women have more freedom than in China)



Ibben: Greenland Inuit/Neanderthals



Mossovy: Muscovy, duh (middle of cold northern forest)




Did I miss anything?

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North of the Wall: circumpolar; bride kidnapping is from the Caucasus

North: geographically Russia (huge & cold w/ arable land, forests & mountains); culturally Northern England & Scotland; White Harbor as one of the Baltic port cities

Riverlands: Poland, b/c fertile w/ rivers & no natural defenses & thus often conquered; also like Rhineland & English Midlands, w/ maybe a touch of Ireland (dominated by foreigners; Tully is an Irish name & they have red hair & blue eyes; also Brendan (Brynden) is an Irish name)

Westerlands: culturally & politically like Plantagenet England (Tywin as Edward I); economically like Germany (German economy in High/Late Middle Ages based on silver mining; Lannisport like one of the Hanseatic port cities; geographically like Southwestern England (very hilly but with no big mountains, mines); also geographically like Central California (hilly, full of gold, rocky coast; Lannisport inspired by San Francisco?)

Reach: France all the way (fertile, mild climate, largest population, center of chivalry)

Vale: Geographically most like Alps (very high mountains w/ fertile valleys), also stay out of most wars like Switzerland; some of Scotland too (conflict b/w mountain clans & valley)

Crownlands: Southeastern England, w/ KL as London

Stormlands: mostly Germany, w/ Rainwood as Black Forest and stormy coast as the Baltic; also Sweden (forests, amber, battered coast w/ surprisingly mild climate)

Iron Islands: Viking culturally; iron mines are Sweden; lack of arable land is Norway

Dorne: geographically like American Southwest (Red Mountains, desert w/ rivers, I. e. Colorado, Rio Grande, spicy food, poisonous snakes); some Moorish Spanish influence; equal primogeniture is Basque (and there have been a number of Spanish queens regnant); geographically a bit like Palestine, w/ Greenblood as Jordan River

Rhoynar: Culturally somewhat like Hindus who worship the Ganges; search for new homeland like Jewish Diaspora after Romans (Valyrians) sacked Jerusalem

Valyria: Roman Republic, w/ upper-class incest from Egypt; also some of Michael Moorcock's Melnibone

Volantis: Constantinople (largest and most powerful remnant of Valyrian/Roman Empire; very important port; huge slave economy); tigers and elephants are Indian

Braavos: Venice w/ some Amsterdam

Norvos: Siena (inland, terraced hills as Tuscany)

Qohor: geographically like Novgorod or Kiev (landlocked, surrounded by forest); special steel like Damascus; Black Goat religion reminds me of Satan worship

Tyrosh: Genoa (greedy & unscrupulous traders & not much culture)

Myr: Florence?

Lys: no RL place, just one big blond brothel

Old Ghis: Carthage, Assyria (pyramids/ziggurats); legions are Roman

Slaver's Bay: Barbary slave trade; Slave Coast of West Africa; slave trading cities on Swahili coast of East Africa & Zanzibar; tokar is like Roman toga, Indian sari & Assyrian clothing (especially fringes); fighting pits are Roman gladiator games

Summer Isles: Carribean & Polynesia

Dothraki: Huns, Comanche (Dothraki look like Plains Indians); Dothraki sea is Eurasian steppe, w/ Womb of the World as Lake Baikal; also like Crimean Tartars, who kidnapped Slavs from the steppe to sell as slaves on the ports of the Black Sea (Slaver's Bay); NOT Mongols, who were sophisticated empire builders who abolished torture & established religious freedom

Jogos Nhai: Scythians (women warriors) & Huns (cranial deformation)

Lhazar: Israelites/early Christians (monotheist; Christian idea of God as shepherd; Israelites herded sheep in hilly, semi-arid land; neither good at defending themselves from predators)

Qarth: Carthage (great port surrounded by desert, pagan); also Babylon, esp. gates; controls straits like Constantinople

Yi Ti: China obviously

Leng: Vietnam (partly Chinese occupied/influenced, partly independent, women have more freedom than in China)

Ibben: Greenland Inuit/Neanderthals

Mossovy: Muscovy, duh (middle of cold northern forest)

Did I miss anything?

Pretty good.

The Night's Watch: Used to be like the most powerful medieval knightly orders, such as the Teutonic knights/Monastic state. At the time of the books more like a really bad version of the French Foreign Legion.

Free Companies: Italian Condotierre.

Iron Islands: More like the islands in the Atlantic colonized by the Norse during the Viking Age, where people kept being raiders and pirates longer. Such as these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_the_Isles . Their environment and size fit better than Scandinavia, and their culture would have been a Norse and British mix rather than just Norse (Euron, Victarion, Balon etc don't sound like Norse names). Asha Greyjoy was apparently also inspired by some female Irish pirate. Their religion is HP Lovecraft inspired stuff with nothing in common with Norse religion beyond encouraging fighting and raiding.

Oldtown: Ancient Alexandria. Huge lighthouse and also a great centre for learning (though some people exaggerate how important the library there was to the rest of the world).

Lys: No direct parallells, but its history as a former holiday resort for the Valyrian elite is similar to certain Roman towns in southern Italy, such as this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baiae

The Stepstones and the Basilisk Isles: Mediterranean pirates and slave raiders. Huge problem during much of the Middle Ages, and even later.

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