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The Cultural Influences in Planetos


Jon Snoww

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There were/are cities in Central Asia along the Silk Road.

I am aware, that's why I specified they're probably not the Central Asian steppe/taiga. According to the Wiki (since I'm too lazy to find it in the book at the moment) it's not really comparable to the steppe/taiga location-wise either since it's apparently surrounded by cliffs.

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The Jogos Nhai are definitely nomadic, Trader Town may be their one town (kind of like Vaes Dothrak - but no one would say the Dothraki aren't nomadic).

They are an amalgamation of peoples, with heaviest reliance on the Mongols. See Mongolian steppe, horses etc: http://media-1.web.britannica.com/eb-media/41/147341-004-428879E6.jpg

Their customs are more difficult to pinpoint, because they're clearly among the races being written specifically as an "other" to the better known cultures (so the further east you go, the stranger the customs seem). So it's more likely motivated by making them seem "exotic" to Westerosi, rather than by making them a clear reflection of a real world people.

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I always assumed that the seven was Christianity and the Great shepherd was Judaism. Thing is though neither have a Jesus figure to make them Christian enough.

Que? Where's the similarity between the Great Shepherd (pacifism at all costs) and the god of Judaism/the Old Testament (a veeeeeery smite-heavy deity)?

- Old Gods is the Druidic religion of Celtic Europe, especially so when in conflict with the Faith

- the Faith is Christianity in general (when compared against the Old Gods) and also medieval Catholicism specifically (the wealthy and rotten High Septons and clergy, now under attack by a popular grassroots movement). It's not the Jesus figure that's relevant here at all, it's the structure of the religion, how it's organised, how it directs its followers' lives, and what it promises in return for good/bad actions. The Faith is Christianity through and through.

- as per the above, the Sparrows are based on Lollards and early Protestants

- Red Rahlooism is Zoroastrianism, that one is almost 1 for 1

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- the Faith is Christianity in general (when compared against the Old Gods) and also medieval Catholicism specifically (the wealthy and rotten High Septons and clergy, now under attack by a popular grassroots movement). It's not the Jesus figure that's relevant here at all, it's the structure of the religion, how it's organised, how it directs its followers' lives, and what it promises in return for good/bad actions. The Faith is Christianity through and through.

I agree for the most part but as I have said a page or two back there's a lot of resemblance between the Seven and the old Norse/Germanic pantheon too.

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I have changed my mind about a few things regarding the Central Asian/Turkic/Mongol/Persian influences.

Sarnori- Persians and Sogdians, inhabitants of a Central Asian esque region before the arrival of a group of Nomads from beyond the mountains, Bone Mountains/Altai Mountains.

Dothraki- Turks, drink fermented Mares milk, conquered from over the mountains. Culturally linked to the night sky, the ancient Turkic symbol was a Moon and star.

Jogos Nhai- Mongols, live beyond the mountains yet have a similar culture to the Dothraki/Turks. Were also a major threat to China/Yi Ti.

However the Dothraki also show Mongol influence and the Jogos Nhai Turkic influence. Khal Mengo was very similar to Genghis Khan and The Jogos Nhai practice cranial deformation, similar to the (probably) Turkic Huns. Like the Central Asian Turks the Jogos Nhai also live around a shrinking sea.

Hyrkoon- Tocharians?

N'Ghai- Perhaps Uzbeks, Turkmen, Kyrgyz?

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Que? Where's the similarity between the Great Shepherd (pacifism at all costs) and the god of Judaism/the Old Testament (a veeeeeery smite-heavy deity)?

- Old Gods is the Druidic religion of Celtic Europe, especially so when in conflict with the Faith

- the Faith is Christianity in general (when compared against the Old Gods) and also medieval Catholicism specifically (the wealthy and rotten High Septons and clergy, now under attack by a popular grassroots movement). It's not the Jesus figure that's relevant here at all, it's the structure of the religion, how it's organised, how it directs its followers' lives, and what it promises in return for good/bad actions. The Faith is Christianity through and through.

- as per the above, the Sparrows are based on Lollards and early Protestants

- Red Rahlooism is Zoroastrianism, that one is almost 1 for 1

I wouldn't say 1 for 1, R'hllorism is obsessed with converting all others, Zoroastrianism doesn't accept converts at all.
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I wouldn't say 1 for 1, R'hllorism is obsessed with converting all others, Zoroastrianism doesn't accept converts at all.

Agreed.

It's interesting to consider why GRRM found Zoroastrianism so interesting. I guess though it would be a less engaging story if the Rahlooans weren't such zealots and proselytisers... Melissandre would be like "the Lord of Light protect us! Not YOU, just us. You can't sit with us!"

But the fire temples, the good/evil deity duality is pretty clear. I think both those reasons made Zoroastrianism a useful reference point for Martin: (1) as one of the anchors of the "fire" side of the story, because of its symbolism, and (2) as another way of looking at this very basic and commonly accepted view that there is such a thing as an irreconcilable duality between light and dark (good and evil, etc) - it's clear that Martin takes a very dim view of this "black and white" way of thinking.

Fundamentally, this is about the danger of believing without question in your own rightness/goodness - which only happens when you implicitly accept that good and evil exist as separate things, meaning you could be entirely one of them (presumably, you could be purely good) and none of the other (presumably, someone else is all of that - they are evil).

It makes you shortsighted and dangerous. Mel and Davos' conversation in the boat on the night he rows her into Storm's End pins down this very point: Mel's whole thing about how a man is either good or bad, never a bit of both (because a half-rotten onion is a rotten onion), is the epitome of idiocy. You cut off the rotten bits and you have a good half-onion. Mel would discard potentially useful allies she considered evil, and would do some pretty evil things because she believes she herself is purely good. Welcome to the religious war danger zone.

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Pretty sure the original intended Martin reference was Lovecraft (The Doom That Came to Sarnath), but nice real world linkage.

Still though, The Dothraki are more similar to the Turkic people who destroyed real Sarnath than the aquatic Lizard people who destroyed Lovecrafts Sarnath. You are probably right.
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