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R+L=J v.119


Jon Weirgaryen

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1.True the Great wolf & burning man is important because GRRM never explained it to the reader, so it will be part of the big reveal...

2.Ned's return is mainly due to the fact that Lady Stoneheart is the only possible Nissa Nissa Candidate in the entire series... So AAR has to be at least part Ned...

1. But that comes after your assumption that GRRM has to explain everything in the series. It's magic. You don't have to explain all the magic.

2. Why is LSH the ONLY possible Nissa Nissa? Cause, I disagree. And I still don't understand. So, Ned and Drogo inhabit Jon's body and then Jon-who-is-not-really-Jon goes to find LSH and stabs her with Longclaw? And that's how he becomes AAR?

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1. But that comes after your assumption that GRRM has to explain everything in the series. It's magic. You don't have to explain all the magic.

2. Why is LSH the ONLY possible Nissa Nissa? Cause, I disagree. And I still don't understand. So, Ned and Drogo inhabit Jon's body and then Jon-who-is-not-really-Jon goes to find LSH and stabs her with Longclaw? And that's how he becomes AAR?

1. GRRM will explain every intrigue, it is his nature, he can't help it... it might take 10 books though...

2. Jon (the real Jon Snow) never reunites with his body...

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It's more likely that Mel was right all along, and Stannis is AA, with a twist.

Or, how Undead Jon goes all Varamyr Six-Skin and possesses Stannis...

I think that Varamyr will have a significant influence on the remaining plot...

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1. GRRM will explain every intrigue, it is his nature, he can't help it... it might take 10 books though...

2. Jon (the real Jon Snow) never reunites with his body...

1. Well the problem then becomes what you think is an intrigue and what GRRM intended to be an intrigue could be different. You might think X is really intriguing but that GRRM never intended for X to be any such thing.

2. Yes, we've had this conversation before. we'll just agree to disagree at this point.

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It relates to Wylla and the fisherman's daughter. We can't keep going over and over the clues that relate only to R+L, can we? Looking at another angle of the story seems useful, in the spirit of adopting a more exhaustive/holistic view.

I was referring to the Ned + Khal and wondering if it would result in any progeny . . .

But, Ned went north to call his banners long before he married Catelyn. Still, Ned was never the boy that he was. Robert knows that Ned never partook before the war, and Ned has told Robert that he disgraced himself and Catelyn to produce Jon, which is a lie. Ned is disgracing himself by telling the lie, but it does reflect on Catelyn, so in reality it may not be so much of a lie.

The fisherman's daughter story is a red herring. It predates David and Dan guessing correctly. (The most obvious giveaway, though there are many others.)

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Why? The guy himself says that he is not the type to screw around.

yes, but not having huge appetites is =/= from never having 'slipped'.

The sentence is open enough to interpretation that it can be understood as either: Ned just doesn't have a huge appetite but may have known other women anyway, or Ned never bedded any woman outside of the marriage bed. That's why it's inconclusive, especially since we have other people who are suspect of having been with Ned. Ashara, Wylla, the fisherman's daughter. My intention is no to cast doubt on R+L.

I'd treat the Ned + ? question as a separate matter, a separate question, that nonetheless allows us to understand how these characters relate to each other, and to better define their role. It appears we don't have enough information, though.

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yes, but not having huge appetites is =/= from never having 'slipped'.

The sentence is open enough to interpretation that it can be understood as either: Ned just doesn't have a huge appetite but may have known other women anyway, or Ned never bedded any woman outside of the marriage bed. That's why it's inconclusive, especially since we have other people who are suspect of having been with Ned. Ashara, Wylla, the fisherman's daughter. My intention is no to cast doubt on R+L.

I'd treat the Ned + ? question as a separate matter, a separate question, that nonetheless allows us to understand how these characters relate to each other, and to better define their role. It appears we don't have enough information, though.

But he is not referring to huge appetites but to taking pleasures, in the context of Robert daydreaming about naked women. He means that unlike Robert, he exercises restraint.

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I'd treat the Ned + ? question as a separate matter, a separate question, that nonetheless allows us to understand how these characters relate to each other, and to better define their role. It appears we don't have enough information, though.

I am satisfied that Ned + Catelyn is the only acceptable answer if the "+" == sexual relations. Jon is not Ned's natural son, but an adopted son.

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1. Well the problem then becomes what you think is an intrigue and what GRRM intended to be an intrigue could be different. You might think X is really intriguing but that GRRM never intended for X to be any such thing.

2. Yes, we've had this conversation before. we'll just agree to disagree at this point.

Is it possible that there are layers of GRRM's writing that BearQueen87 has yet to uncover???

My Magic 8-Ball says "Signs Point to YES"

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A thought occurred to me about the number that Ned brings with him to the ToJ. Jaime refers to his party in AFfC at some point to something like "not so few as to be easy pickings, but enough to make the broken men and bandits think twice."



Might this been part of Ned's rationale? Dorne is not exactly pacified at this point. He would not want to be wandering around alone, but also not with 1,000s of men to provoke the Dornish into attacking him.


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Is it possible that there are layers of GRRM's writing that BearQueen87 has yet to uncover???

My Magic 8-Ball says "Signs Point to YES"

Is it possible that Addicted to Snow really wants his story and not the one GRRM is trying to tell?

My Magic 8-Ball says "Definitely"

Look, I'm not trying to say that I have figured out every single thing or uncovered every little mystery in this series. If I had, I wouldn't need this forum or the remaining books. But just because you think something is intrguing doesn't mean GRRM set it up that way. Just the same as maybe he did and I'll catch it later. Personally, I think the Great Wolf in the Tent is "big scary magic!" and while magic (generally) will be explained--how it works in Planteos, how it has changed, ect--not every instance of magic will be. Now the Great Wolf might get some explanation...or it might not. But the idea that Ned and Drogo are going to inhabit Jon's body...you have yet to show me textual evidence. Show me text. Then we can resume snarking.

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Is it possible that Addicted to Snow really wants his story and not the one GRRM is trying to tell?

My Magic 8-Ball says "Definitely"

Look, I'm not trying to say that I have figured out every single thing or uncovered every little mystery in this series. If I had, I wouldn't need this forum or the remaining books. But just because you think something is intrguing doesn't mean GRRM set it up that way. Just the same as maybe he did and I'll catch it later. Personally, I think the Great Wolf in the Tent is "big scary magic!" and while magic (generally) will be explained--how it works in Planteos, how it has changed, ect--not every instance of magic will be. Now the Great Wolf might get some explanation...or it might not. But the idea that Ned and Drogo are going to inhabit Jon's body...you have yet to show me textual evidence. Show me text. Then we can resume snarking.

I believe that there are More Intrigues than what have been identified, not less...

& given GRRM nature, if it might be intrigue, then it is an intrigue... He does not waste opportunities to add another layer...

That is what makes him unique...

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I believe that there are More Intrigues than what have been identified, not less...

& given GRRM nature, if it might be intrigue, then it is an intrigue... He does not waste opportunities to add another layer...

That is what makes him unique...

Intrigue--yes. But you get into a level of detail on the precise nature of the intrigue that you expect to happen--and there is not much support in the text for those suggestions. So yes, GRRM will probably surprise all of us with certain "twists" that occur in the story. But that does not mean that the specific plot developments that you seem so certain will occur have any real support in the text or have any likelihood to occur.

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But the idea that Ned and Drogo are going to inhabit Jon's body...you have yet to show me textual evidence. Show me text. Then we can resume snarking.

There will be no textual evidence of how the plot truly unfolds, then GRRM would be a predictable writer... There is not direct evidence of R+L=J, yet you (we) believe it... Why should other theories be held to higher standards?

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How do you think R+L=J will be revealed?

To Jon?

He has this dream in the crypts which he is not able to finish due to waking up from terror. Since his body will be in a coma and his spirit will be in Ghost, this time he will not be able to wake up from that dream and move on. In the crypts, he will see Ned's spirit and probably Lyanna too similar to Jaime saw Joanna but didnot recognize her.

To the Realm?

That one is tricky. That depends on many events.

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You can rest assured that the idea of Ned/Drogo returning with the red Comet & being reborn as AAR is more than mere speculation... I'm usually pretty good at things that I apply myself too (I can also find oil) and I have devoted years to analyzing this shit... The theory is grounded in the following:


  1. Text / Prophesies
  2. Storytelling Theory
  3. Reasoning
  4. & Reverse engineering (example: if there is only one character who can set a sword aflame when stabbed in the heart, then she must be Nissa Nissa... Who loved this character more than anything else on planetos?)
  5. And then GRRM writing style, trends, etc... (example: I can tell that he is well practiced at writing POVs with 2 minds in one head)
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