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R+L=J v.119


Jon Weirgaryen

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It could be you answered your own question, "Ghost" in the crypts of Winterfell. Could be an event will happen there involving Ghost. You can play the Bloodraven card with that, if you want. Though you know you need to get rid of the army first. Though and lets be clear I don't think it will be Jon in Ghost from Castle black to Winterfell and Back. You know the whole Jon is in Ghost thing, it would leave Jon in Ghost for a long time. Like a month or two and Winterfell has occupational force currently and no matter who wins the battle of Ice and Fire. Of course that Battle is probably just an inverse Parallel of the Night King attacking Winterfell, and that will probably repeat way down the road again.

Anyway maybe Jon eventually ends up there and Wargs into Ghost and finds something in the crypts, using his wolfy nose.

Jon (in Ghost) will be traveling North of the Wall with Val in TWoW... If there is one thing that is made clear in ADWDs, that is it... Jon will be no where near Winterfell in the next book.

But I agree, that he will be trapped in Ghost (or apart from his body) for a prolonged period of time, probably for forever...

--

After rereading your post, I see that we are not at odds...

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Jon (in Ghost) will be traveling North of the Wall with Val in TWoW... If there is one thing that is made clear in ADWDs, that is it... Jon will be no where near Winterfell in the next book.

I understand loosely how this conclusion was reached, but could give a more detailed outline of how you came to this conclusion?

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It is a tough thing to see Jon taking resident in Ghost. We are told that the second life of a skinchanger is the end of the line, but Varamyr shows us that a skinchanger can be forced from his animal as he did with Haggon and his wolf, well he broke the connection and claimed the wolf for his own. It's possible someone could force Jon from Ghost; but what would happen to Jon and who will do the deed?

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A thought occurred to me about the number that Ned brings with him to the ToJ. Jaime refers to his party in AFfC at some point to something like "not so few as to be easy pickings, but enough to make the broken men and bandits think twice."

Might this been part of Ned's rationale? Dorne is not exactly pacified at this point. He would not want to be wandering around alone, but also not with 1,000s of men to provoke the Dornish into attacking him.

I'd say if anything the Dornish would be more likely to attack a force of a mere seven men including one of the two leaders of the rebellion than it would the combined armies of the North, Riverlands, Vale and Stormlands under that leader's command. Even Jaime was talking about rather more than 7 men.

There's no reason why Ned couldn't have taken 200 mounted men with him to the ToJ. Fast and safe. He chose not to. The logical conclusion to me is that he chose 7 of his closest companions because:

1. He could pick men who could be trusted to keep a deadly secret.

2. He didn't want to appear threatening enough to force a fight.

3. He wanted just enough men to be confident he'd win the fight if it happened.

From this I conclude that Ned knew what to expect in the Tower of Joy before he got there, and was hoping that Dayne, Whent and Hightower wouldn't fight him, but wasn't certain.

Also, he took seven, and seven is the magic number. Ned's journey to the ToJ is at least as much mythic symbolism as it is plot element.

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Can we talk about Wylla and the fisherman's daughter? I'm thinking Wylla, can also be a name from the Reach. That's where the Manderlys originally came from, yeah? And Willas Tyrell....

Okay. Can you flesh this out a little? I think the objections to the fisherman's daughter as Jon's mother are (1) if it's some fisherman's daughter from the White Harbour area, why did Ned say Wylla was the mother; (2) D&D supposedly got the answer right when they were asked who Jon's mother was, and this was before the fisherman's daughter was announced in ADWD; and (3) the timeline does not work because Ned met the fisherman's daughter at the beginning of the Rebellion, the Rebellion lasted a year, but Jon was supposedly born after Robb, and Robb was born after the Battle of the Bells.

Your suggestion that Wylla and the fisherman's daughter are the same person solves the first two problems, but can it account for the third?

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Ah, but I'm nor speaking about cheating on his wife. I'm speaking about Ned 'forgetting' himself while on his way north, to call the banners. He'd have been under lots of pressure, and lets be honest -- in such male dominated societies, it's practically expected for men to have intercourse out of wed-locks at one point or another if only to gather 'experience' before their wedding.

Ned is honorable, that is true. But he was also 18 years old, going off to war, in a male dominated society, brother of Brandon and friend of Robert, not yet promised to anyone. Edmure did it. Arys did it. Jon did it. Robb did it. SAM did it. Even Barristan thought about it....

Robert complains to Ned that he 'was never the boy he was'. And that it must have taken an amazing woman to make Ned Stark forget his precious honour for even a minute.

So even at 18, even though everyone else did it, Ned wasn't the type.

And no, there is no evidence Barristan thought about it for a moment. He was in love with Ashara Dayne, but that does not mean he wanted to sleep with her. ... At least not seriously.

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No.

Jon might be in Ghost for an hour or two, beyond that he is going to use his own body.

See that's what I think, that's why I said he is not going on some super long journey in Ghost to eat "Jojen". Though I think it can be for more than a couple of hours maybe a day. Though at some point in the future he could Warg into Ghost at Wiinterfell and end up in the crypts.

Jon (in Ghost) will be traveling North of the Wall with Val in TWoW... If there is one thing that is made clear in ADWDs, that is it... Jon will be no where near Winterfell in the next book.

But I agree, that he will be trapped in Ghost (or apart from his body) for a prolonged period of time, probably for forever...

--

After rereading your post, I see that we are not at odds...

Oh that is what Dance was trying to tell us? It was about Ghost Jon and Val going on a walk. It will be interesting to see if Val survives.

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The world book raises an interesting timeline issue.



Robb and Jon are "of an age."



Robb was conceived on Cat & Ned's wedding night.



According to the world book, Cat & Ned were married right after the Battle of the Bells.



Also according to the world book, the siege of Storm's End started right after the Battle of the Bells.



This suggests that Robb and Jon were born around 9-10 months after the Battle of the Bells.



According to an SSM, Jon was born 8-9 months before Dany, and according to AGOT, Dany was born 9 moons after Rhaella's flight from Dragonstone. The flight would be 2 weeks before the Sack of King's Landing, meaning that Jon and Robb were born between about 2 weeks before and 2 weeks after the Sack.



This also means Jon and Robb were born 9 1/2 to 10 1/2 months after the start of the siege of Storm's End. If Ned lifted the siege of Storm's End 12 months after the siege started, that means he lifted it somewhere between 1.5 to 2.5 months after Jon's birth.



We know Ned went to Storm's End before he went to the tower of joy. That means he got to the tower of joy more than 1.5 months after Jon was born, and possibly as much as 3 months after Jon was born. That makes it hard to believe that Lyanna died from complications related to Jon's birth.



Either that, or, more likely, the old SSM stating that Jon was born 8-9 months before Dany was perhaps an off-handed error by GRRM.

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My first post. :) I've been reading this forum for a while.

I think either:

1. Bran will "see" it all unfold and potentially show Jon in his current dream state (because he isn't dead)

2. Howland Reed will show up after Stannis takes over Winterfell and they'll find whatever the heck is in the crypts-and Stannis-being honorable-will grit his teeth and let Jon know

3. Howland Reed will show up at the Wall as Jon wakes up and have a story to tell

Howland is the only one alive who really knows what happened, and Bran can apparently see any time period, so they have to be involved somehow.

Edited: okay Benjen might know...that could be #4

Welcome to the forum!

Who says the realm will find out? ^^

Who says the realm will care?

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Am I the only one left who doesn't think Jon will go on some world trip in Ghost?

I don't think it's going to be a long time. And I don't think he's going to stray too far from the Wall (Look away Unmasked Lurker!)

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I don't think it's going to be a long time. And I don't think he's going to stray too far from the Wall (Look away Unmasked Lurker!)

Starg Trek, Ghost: the final dire wolf. These are the voyages of the warg Jon Snow. His five-year mission: to explore strange new lands, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no warg has gone before.

Then when he goes body hoping he can say energize.

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It is a tough thing to see Jon taking resident in Ghost. We are told that the second life of a skinchanger is the end of the line, but Varamyr shows us that a skinchanger can be forced from his animal as he did with Haggon and his wolf, well he broke the connection and claimed the wolf for his own. It's possible someone could force Jon from Ghost; but what would happen to Jon and who will do the deed?

There is a skinchanger with the giant boar conveniently placed at the wall... Jon will no doubt have some sort of altercation with him whether positive or negative... GRRM has gone out of his way to paint this skinchanger as a 'dark' character, so much so that it makes me suspicious, because GRRM is usually more subtle...

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According to an SSM, Jon was born 8-9 months before Dany, and according to AGOT, Dany was born 9 moons after Rhaella's flight from Dragonstone. The flight would be 2 weeks before the Sack of King's Landing, meaning that Jon and Robb were born between about 2 weeks before and 2 weeks after the Sack.

Martin is unbelievably, premeditatively (no a word), sneaky when giving out information in SSM's... I an very skeptical of the wording GRRM used when saying that Jon & Dany were born 8-9 months apart... That is exactly the sort of trickery that he would use...

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No.

Jon might be in Ghost for an hour or two, beyond that he is going to use his own body.

How do you account for all the foreshadowing that leaves Jon's body frozen in the Ice Cells for an extended period of time..

It takes more than an hour or two to freeze a human body...

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How do you account for all the foreshadowing that leaves Jon's body frozen in the Ice Cells for an extended period of time..

It takes more than an hour or two to freeze a human body...

Some people disagree with that foreshadowing. I'm not sure if it means he'll be in the ice cells, or rather in the middle of deep winter, incredibly cold, or engaged in some way with the forces of Winter. His reflection in ice could also be related to his true self being hidden behind Snow (which is just ice after all).

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