markg171 Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Robert complains to Ned that he 'was never the boy he was'. And that it must have taken an amazing woman to make Ned Stark forget his precious honour for even a minute. So even at 18, even though everyone else did it, Ned wasn't the type. And no, there is no evidence Barristan thought about it for a moment. He was in love with Ashara Dayne, but that does not mean he wanted to sleep with her. ... At least not seriously. Ned was also too shy to even ask Ashara to dance. There's nothing that says that he didn't want to sleep around with everybody like Robert, but there is evidence to suggest that he was too shy to act on his feelings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 I understand loosely how this conclusion was reached, but could give a more detailed outline of how you came to this conclusion? Tons of foreshadowing that Ghost & Val will be hanging-out in TWoW... -- Plus a POV is headed to the Heart of Winter & Jon still has a promise to go find his lost uncle - I believe he said "Then Ghost & I will go find him"... Quite literally, Ghost & Jon will go find him... A lot of posters here think that it's Bran who will show the reader the Heart of Winter, but I doubt that there are any weirwoods in the heart of winter. If they can't grow at the Eyrie from lack of topsoil, then they can't grow in the permafrost... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Some people disagree with that foreshadowing. I'm not sure if it means he'll be in the ice cells, or rather in the middle of deep winter, incredibly cold, or engaged in some way with the forces of Winter. His reflection in ice could also be related to his true self being hidden behind Snow (which is just ice after all). Interesting... But when you couple the foreshadowing, with the abundance of attention given to Ice Cells making them central to future plot, and the Blue rose growing from a chink in the wall of ice... It all adds up to Jon's body being frozen inside the Wall for a long, long time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Interesting... But when you couple the foreshadowing, with the abundance of attention given to Ice Cells making them central to future plot, and the Blue rose growing from a chink in the wall of ice... It all adds up to Jon's body being frozen inside the Wall for a long, long time... I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm actually inclined to agree with you that the ice cells will be involved. I don't agree with the "long, long time" portion, simply because there isn't that much time left in the books, compared to what I would call a long, long time. I just don't think the ice cells is as slam dunk as you make it out to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm actually inclined to agree with you that the ice cells will be involved. I don't agree with the "long, long time" portion, simply because there isn't that much time left in the books, compared to what I would call a long, long time. I just don't think the ice cells is as slam dunk as you make it out to be. I think that Jon's body will be frozen until Dany finally arrives at the wall, finds a blue rose growing, and begins an instinctive magic ritual much like she did when she hatched her dragons... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 I think that Jon's body will be frozen until Dany finally arrives at the wall, finds a blue rose growing, and begins an instinctive magic ritual much like she did when she hatched her dragons... And that's when Bran wargs the body, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corbon Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Ned was also too shy to even ask Ashara to dance. There's nothing that says that he didn't want to sleep around with everybody like Robert, but there is evidence to suggest that he was too shy to act on his feelings. :) Indeed. Actually, too shy to even get off his bench. It isn't clear if Brandon asking her 'on his behalf' is because Ned asked for it, or because Brandon just wanted to get him to enjoy the party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markg171 Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 The world book raises an interesting timeline issue. Robb and Jon are "of an age." Robb was conceived on Cat & Ned's wedding night. According to the world book, Cat & Ned were married right after the Battle of the Bells. Also according to the world book, the siege of Storm's End started right after the Battle of the Bells. This suggests that Robb and Jon were born around 9-10 months after the Battle of the Bells. According to an SSM, Jon was born 8-9 months before Dany, and according to AGOT, Dany was born 9 moons after Rhaella's flight from Dragonstone. The flight would be 2 weeks before the Sack of King's Landing, meaning that Jon and Robb were born between about 2 weeks before and 2 weeks after the Sack. This also means Jon and Robb were born 9 1/2 to 10 1/2 months after the start of the siege of Storm's End. If Ned lifted the siege of Storm's End 12 months after the siege started, that means he lifted it somewhere between 1.5 to 2.5 months after Jon's birth. We know Ned went to Storm's End before he went to the tower of joy. That means he got to the tower of joy more than 1.5 months after Jon was born, and possibly as much as 3 months after Jon was born. That makes it hard to believe that Lyanna died from complications related to Jon's birth. Either that, or, more likely, the old SSM stating that Jon was born 8-9 months before Dany was perhaps an off-handed error by GRRM. Don't try and use logic here, it'll just get thrown out the window Edit: What do you know, someone already tried to say that Martin isn't reliable when he says that Jon isn't 8-9 months older than Dany Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Don't try and use logic here, it'll just get thrown out the window Or, that "probably closer to 8-9 months" is a rough estimate from a man who admits his timelines suck, leaving a little bit of wiggle room for Jon's birth, but closing the window on them being more than a year apart, or twins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 And that's when Bran wargs the body, right? UGH???? I suppose that is possible... -- I would say & that's when the red comet appears on the horizon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 UGH???? I suppose that is possible... -- I would say & that's when the red comet appears on the horizon... Could have sworn Bran permawarged vacant Jon's body becoming AA, and Jon perma-rape-warged Hodor to becomes the Night King? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markg171 Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Or, that "probably closer to 8-9 months" is a rough estimate from a man who admits his timelines suck, leaving a little bit of wiggle room for Jon's birth, but closing the window on them being more than a year apart, or twins. Well if it's such a big deal that Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's ,you'd think he'd make sure of it being physically possible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Well if it's such a big deal that Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's ,you'd think he'd make sure of it being physically possible All of which is a long winded way of saying, no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts. I do intend to publish a timeline as an appendix in one or other of the later volumes, but even when I do, I am not certain I'm going to start detailing things down to months and days. With such a huge cast of characters, just keeping track of the =years= drives me half mad sometimes. Not to mention the colors of everybody's eyes. Sorry for the color, but I can never unhighlight on this site. Even when he's planning on specifically making a timeline, he doesn't plan on doing months so there are fewer chances for those inconsistencies. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markg171 Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Sorry for the color, but I can never unhighlight on this site. Even when he's planning on specifically making a timeline, he doesn't plan on doing months so there are fewer chances for those inconsistencies. . But how does that change the fact that he said Jon is 8-9 months older? He's saying he's not going to detail everything down to months and days, but he's not talking about Jon. Jon he did give a specific timeline. He's saying everything else that he finally gets around too will not be so detailed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 But how does that change the fact that he said Jon is 8-9 months older? He's saying he's not going to detail everything down to months and days, but he's not talking about Jon. Jon he did give a specific timeline. He's saying everything else that he finally gets around too will not be so detailed. He also added two qualifiers to that statement. If I say my truck weighs around 4000 pounds because I don't know the exact right answer, 3000-5000 shouldn't be outside the realm of possibility. Just like "closer to" a 1 month window doesn't mean it's necessarily within that window. Just close to it in the grand scheme of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of the Green Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Am I the only one left who doesn't think Jon will go on some world trip in Ghost? I don't think he's going to be going on any sort of walkabout with Val, either north of the Wall or south of it. I do think that he will be spending some time in Ghost, but I don't foresee it lasting much longer than a chapter or two. What we haven't had yet is what happens to a person's conscience when he sleeps as animal instead of man. As far as I recall, Bran was never allotted more than a few hours at a time in Summer's head, and we certainly never saw him dream as Summer. I think that'll be an interesting take, if it does play out like that. UGH???? I suppose that is possible... -- I would say & that's when the red comet appears on the horizon... A celestial body that appears to have a trajectory aimed towards the ground would most likely spell doom for every one of our characters, and not because of the conflict that would crop up when you have Jon Snow, Ned Stark, and Khal Drogo all sharing one head space. That sounds like a hilarious sitcom, though. So, yeah, I do hope that happens. Good idea! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markg171 Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 He also added two qualifiers to that statement. If I say my truck weighs around 4000 pounds because I don't know the exact right answer, 3000-5000 shouldn't be outside the realm of possibility. Just like "closer to" a 1 month window doesn't mean it's necessarily within that window. Just close to it in the grand scheme of things. So if I'm understanding this correctly, you're telling us to either ignore what GRRM says, or to twist it, so that it can fit R+L=J with Jon being born at the TOJ, instead of accepting GRRM's stated timeline, which fits with what he's written, in that Jon is Ned's son. Okay, gotcha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 So if I'm understanding this correctly, you're telling us to either ignore what GRRM says, or to twist it, so that it can fit R+L=J with Jon being born at the TOJ, instead of accepting GRRM's stated timeline, which fits with what he's written, in that Jon is Ned's son. Okay, gotcha. Actually, I'm saying to notice the qualifiers, followed a sentence later with not nailing things down to days or months. Then notice that any attempt to put the timeline clusterfuck that is the Rebellion together, even without R+L=J, is needed to get to how R+L=J might not work out perfectly as described. Nevermind that 1.5 months after the sack for Ned's arrival at the ToJ is well within the time limits of 8-9 months and the death window on peruperal (sp?) fever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Could someone please provide me with quotes regarding Daemon and Rhaenyra's attempt to get married? Did Daemon as for his first wife to be set aside? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markg171 Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Actually, I'm saying to notice the qualifiers, followed a sentence later with not nailing things down to days or months. Then notice that any attempt to put the timeline clusterfuck that is the Rebellion together, even without R+L=J, is needed to get to how R+L=J might not work out perfectly as described. Nevermind that 1.5 months after the sack for Ned's arrival at the ToJ is well within the time limits of 8-9 months and the death window on peruperal (sp?) fever. Except it doesn't fit. If Jon is 9 months older than Dany, he is born sometime in the month before the Sack. If he's 8 month's he born during the Sack to a month afterwards, He'd be a couple of weeks to a couple of months old by the time Ned could arrive at the TOJ Which then begs the question, why would the place still be bloody, if she'd given birth weeks or months before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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