R+L=J v.119

[Ser Creighton]

Thanks for finding that quote. It certainly does support my theory that Jon/Ghost will be heading North during WoW. And this quote suggests that they will find out what happened to Benjen during their trip. I really am surprise that more people don't see it this way.

Well they did go north to find Benjen and the Wildlings found Jon and the Others found the Night's Watch.

[J. Stargaryen]

There's another no-so-subtle hint that Jon will live on in Ghost, which can be found in ADwD. There is even a mention of Benjen.

“Aye, my lord,” said the Lord Steward, “but will it be as living men or heads on spears with your eyes scooped out? You will be returning through the black of night. The snowdrifts are waist deep in places. I see that you are taking seasoned men with you, that is good, but Black Jack Bulwer knew these woods as well. Even Benjen Stark, your own uncle, he—”
“I have something they did not.” Jon turned his head and whistled. “Ghost. To me.” The direwolf shook the snow from his back and trotted to Jon’s side. The rangers parted to let him through, though one mare whinnied and shied away till Rory gave her reins a sharp tug. “The Wall is yours, Lord Bowen.” He took his horse by the bridle and walked him to the gate and the icy tunnel that snaked beneath the Wall.

ADwD, Jon VII

Jon will live because, unlike the previous brothers of the NW, he has Ghost.

[BearQueen87]

Well they did go north to find Benjen and the Wildlings found Jon and the Others found the Night's Watch.

This is what I was going to say.

[Greymoon]

I personally wouldn't describe an event mentioned halfway through 300 AC as having occurred 17 yeas ago if it had taken place in the, say, 10th or 11th month of 282 AC. That would be more than 17,5 year difference..

Who said anything about 'half-way' through 300AC? As far as I'm aware, the calculations about what chapters occurs when are imprecise at best. The bigger point is, that the appreciation of time can vary quite a lot, and that this is always going to work in GRRM's favor.

I did say, depending on the month of reference in the year 300AC. If the starting point is mid year 300AC, I agree with you. If the starting point is beginning of 300AC, and you're talking about something that happened at the end of 282, that's less than 18 years. It can even be less than 17.5 years ago. And in all honestly, when people talk or think, or remember things, they often make mistakes.

I keep forgetting this is the year 2014, that X event didn't happen last year, but like three years ago, and that I'm supposed to be an adult, now. :ack:

Time appreciation really varies a lot. Depending on the speaker, and on that speaker's appreciation of how much time passed, you'd get people saying it was 18 years ago, others saying it was 17 years ago, and still others giving you a precise calculation like 17 years, 2 months, 3 days.

[Ser Creighton]

There's another no-so-subtle hint that Jon will live on in Ghost, which can be found in ADwD. There is even a mention of Benjen.

ADwD, Jon VII

Jon will live because, unlike the previous brothers of the NW, he has Ghost.

Jon's Ghost will live on? Bit of an oxymoron but as a metaphor it works, not being a literal Ghost. I just don't agree we get dead Jon' body for the next book or so. Though he could make the best of the situation.

Val: Ghost you have been so needy since Jon passed

Ghost: Looking all sad and innocent

Val: Well I am off to the baths, oh you want to come with? Oh of course sweetie. Then we can snuggle up for bed.

[J. Stargaryen]

Jon's Ghost will live on? Bit of an oxymoron but as a metaphor it works, not being a literal Ghost. I just don't agree we get dead Jon' body for the next book or so. Though he could make the best of the situation.

Val: Ghost you have been so needy since Jon passed

Ghost: Looking all sad and innocent

Val: Well I am off to the baths, oh you want to come with? Oh of course sweetie. Then we can snuggle up for bed.

It's another hint that Ghost will be the thing that keeps Jon alive. I mean in the man-wolf-man sense. Jon differentiates himself from men who died by pointing out that he won't die because he has Ghost.

[Ser Creighton]

It's another hint that Ghost will be the thing that keeps Jon alive. I mean in the man-wolf-man sense. Jon differentiates himself from men who died by pointing out that he won't die because he has Ghost.

No I get that ghost will keep him alive and the whole man wolf man from Mel thing. Just don't think it will be a crazy long period of time, but who knows. My thing is the body won't die, cause that leads to UnJon, not really a fan of Uncharacters. UnCat, UnJon, UnGregor, unbelievable. Kind of takes things over shark. Now metaphorical or symbolic rebirth, yeah totally. You know Dany didn't die in the fire or the Pit, but they gave way to a symbolic rebirth. Jon was assumed dead once before till he returned from the Wildlings.

[Ellfoy]

No I get that ghost will keep him alive and the whole man wolf man from Mel thing. Just don't think it will be a crazy long period of time, but who knows. My thing is the body won't die, cause that leads to UnJon, not really a fan of Uncharacters. UnCat, UnJon, UnGregor, unbelievable. Kind of takes things over shark. Now metaphorical or symbolic rebirth, yeah totally. You know Dany didn't die in the fire or the Pit, but they gave way to a symbolic rebirth. Jon was assumed dead once before till he returned from the Wildlings.

:agree:

[J. Stargaryen]

No I get that ghost will keep him alive and the whole man wolf man from Mel thing. Just don't think it will be a crazy long period of time, but who knows. My thing is the body won't die, cause that leads to UnJon, not really a fan of Uncharacters. UnCat, UnJon, UnGregor, unbelievable. Kind of takes things over shark. Now metaphorical or symbolic rebirth, yeah totally. You know Dany didn't die in the fire or the Pit, but they gave way to a symbolic rebirth. Jon was assumed dead once before till he returned from the Wildlings.

I don't have any firm beliefs on how that will play out, either. I'm not sure if his body will actually die or not. I just thought that passage stood out as reinforcing the man-wolf-man scenario.

[addicted to snow]

Are you referring to Bran's vision of present events? (Before Catelyn arrives in King's Landing.)

already answered this question...

[addicted to snow]

I am onboard with your theory, UnmaskedLurker...

[BearQueen87]

No I get that ghost will keep him alive and the whole man wolf man from Mel thing. Just don't think it will be a crazy long period of time, but who knows. My thing is the body won't die, cause that leads to UnJon, not really a fan of Uncharacters. UnCat, UnJon, UnGregor, unbelievable. Kind of takes things over shark. Now metaphorical or symbolic rebirth, yeah totally. You know Dany didn't die in the fire or the Pit, but they gave way to a symbolic rebirth. Jon was assumed dead once before till he returned from the Wildlings.

Well said. I agree. Perhaps GhostPuppyJon will feel the "call of the wild" and want to go off North but will "come home" to the Wall before he gets too far.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Jon can use Ghost as a vessel only if his body dies. If Jon lives then he could skinchange Ghost, but I don't see how he could do that while comatose. Example- If we look at Bran, his coma did not force him into Summer. So, either Jon is dead or he is unconcious and slips inside Ghost for a bit. But I don't see how skinchanging could be the man, wolf, man again vision unless Mel doesn't know what a warg is and her readings of the flames are exaggerated.

[BearQueen87]

Jon can use Ghost as a vessel only if his body dies. If Jon lives then he could skinchange Ghost, but I don't see how he could do that while comatose. Example- If we look at Bran, his coma did not force him into Summer. So, either Jon is dead or he is unconcious and slips inside Ghost for a bit. But I don't see how skinchanging could be the man, wolf, man again vision unless Mel doesn't know what a warg is and her readings of the flames are exaggerated.

Given how many times he was stabbed, it's possible that he is unconscious/comatose. I don't expect Jon (in his human body) to be up and about until Ghost returns

[sj4iy]

Jon can use Ghost as a vessel only if his body dies.

I guess Jon just dreamed about exploring the Milkwater in Ghost, then, in your version of the story.

We know for a fact that skinchangers and wargs can use their animal as a vessel without being dead.

If Jon lives then he could skinchange Ghost, but I don't see how he could do that while comatose. Example- If we look at Bran, his coma did not force him into Summer. So, either Jon is dead or he is unconcious and slips inside Ghost for a bit. But I don't see how skinchanging could be the man, wolf, man again vision unless Mel doesn't know what a warg is and her readings of the flames are exaggerated.

Uh, I think your logic is utterly flawed. There's no reason to believe that Jon didn't unconsciously warg Ghost during his attack. I mean, he did even call out his name, just like Robb called out for Grey Wind.

[addicted to snow]

I don't connect Jon's Death with there having to be an UnJon... GRRM has provided numerous pathways for a character to be brought back to life... GRRM has also been building up to a 'Grand-Resurrection' (or so it seems to me)... It just seems to me that the UnJon pathway is the least likely pathway that GRRM would utilize...

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I guess Jon just dreamed about exploring the Milkwater in Ghost, then, in your version of the story.

We know for a fact that skinchangers and wargs can use their animal as a vessel without being dead.

Uh, I think your logic is utterly flawed. There's no reason to believe that Jon didn't unconsciously warg Ghost during his attack. I mean, he did even call out his name, just like Robb called out for Grey Wind.

I'm saying that Mel's vision of man, wolf, man again is more than just skinchanging. He's already done this and it is a common thing for skinchangers to do. So there must be more to the vision than skinchanging. If he becomes one with Ghost, then he needs to leave his body behind. Death is one way. The other way we have seen in the prologue. Varamyr forces his conciousness out of his body and into Thistle, yet he still leaves his body behind. Once Thistle forces Varamyr out, he doesn't return to his body. He goes to his wolf and his body dies.

There lies the problem with Jon becoming trapped in Ghost's body. It's not a simple fix for Jon to leave his host. It might take some time.

Or, the vision just means he will skinchange Ghost and there is nothing significant in that vision.

[sj4iy]

I'm saying that Mel's vision of man, wolf, man again is more than just skinchanging. He's already done this and it is a common thing for skinchangers to do. So there must be more to the vision than skinchanging. If he becomes one with Ghost, then he needs to leave his body behind. Death is one way. The other way we have seen in the prologue. Varamyr forces his conciousness out of his body and into Thistle, yet he still leaves his body behind. Once Thistle forces Varamyr out, he doesn't return to his body. He goes to his wolf and his body dies.

There lies the problem with Jon becoming trapped in Ghost's body. It's not a simple fix for Jon to leave his host. It might take some time.

Or, the vision just means he will skinchange Ghost and there is nothing significant in that vision.

Actually, I'm not so sure he doesn't return to his body.

Before their hearts could beat again he had passed on, searching for his own, for One Eye, Sly, and Stalker, for his pack. His wolves would save him, he told himself.

That was his last thought as a man.

True death came suddenly; he felt a shock of cold, as if he had been plunged into the icy waters of a frozen lake.

I think he might have passed into or through the weirwood, went back into his body and then moved on to his wolf when he finally died.

I don't think Jon returning to his body will be a simple fix, either...but I wouldn't be surprised to see it directly connected to a sacrifice.

[The Twinslayer]

I'm saying that Mel's vision of man, wolf, man again is more than just skinchanging. He's already done this and it is a common thing for skinchangers to do. So there must be more to the vision than skinchanging. If he becomes one with Ghost, then he needs to leave his body behind. Death is one way. The other way we have seen in the prologue. Varamyr forces his conciousness out of his body and into Thistle, yet he still leaves his body behind. Once Thistle forces Varamyr out, he doesn't return to his body. He goes to his wolf and his body dies.

There lies the problem with Jon becoming trapped in Ghost's body. It's not a simple fix for Jon to leave his host. It might take some time.

Or, the vision just means he will skinchange Ghost and there is nothing significant in that vision.

It is possible that his human body will die and his spirit will go into Ghost; and that the event that will precipitate his return to human form will be that Ghost will die. When he is in that bodiless state Varymir described, he will have to try to go somewhere. Why not try to go into his own "dead" body?

And, it would be interesting if he is able to ressurect himself by re-animating his own body after it is dead, rather than relying on someone else to do it for him.

I do think he will probably go back into his original body. Otherwise, what is the point of giving him blood from both Starks and Targs? The blood seems to be important.

[Alia of the knife]

No I get that ghost will keep him alive and the whole man wolf man from Mel thing. Just don't think it will be a crazy long period of time, but who knows. My thing is the body won't die, cause that leads to UnJon, not really a fan of Uncharacters. UnCat, UnJon, UnGregor, unbelievable. Kind of takes things over shark. Now metaphorical or symbolic rebirth, yeah totally. You know Dany didn't die in the fire or the Pit, but they gave way to a symbolic rebirth. Jon was assumed dead once before till he returned from the Wildlings.

Completely agree, as well as things that just won't die, and hidden Targs.

Jon I don't mind, but the rest?

It kind of does away with the mystique of dragons blood if its so diluted that almost everyone in Westeros has dragons blood.