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R+L=J v.119


Jon Weirgaryen

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It also might be a case of Ned does not know who actually killed Elia and the children. Surely he heard the same rumors as everyone else, but because he is Ned, he would not accuse Gregor or Amory outright because he has no actual proof.



It is one thing for Ned to dislike Tywin, because he took credit for dead children. It is entirely different, especially to Ned, to call out specific vengeance/sentence on specific murderers. No one would confirm who killed Elia and the children, so Ned could not act. He is too strict in his interpretation of the law/justice.



As a counter, when Ned has several witnesses who claim it could only have been Gregor ravaging the Riverlands, he calls it a crime and for heads, immediately. Because he has witnesses and it can stand up for him and in what passes for trial/court in Westeros.


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First off, I'm all for R+L=J; apart from all the evidence for it, it makes sense as a story, which is probably the best proof!

I like the way you think.

(snip)

Why didn't the KG say: "Hey Ned, come see your nephew, our King. You wanna be Regent?"

You've seen the standard answer from a few people, which honestly I find a very weak answer. The idea that the 3KG would instantly assume that Ned would hack his nephew's head off just doen't make much sense. On the other hand, nor does the offer above -- Robert has already been declared king at this point. The 3KG know that, as they refer to him as a usurper. They know Ned isn't going to suddenly demand Robert give up the throne to him like that.

There's got to be something more nuanced going on. The obvious answer is that we simply don't know exactly what was going on with the 3KG. As Addicted to Snow mentioned, this is necessary for narrative purposes -- the secret had to be kept from the reader. It seems an obvious conclusion that the narrative we have is dramatically simplified. It just doesn't make much sense that the conversation between Ned and the 3KG wouldn't even touch on these important questions. Here's the advantage of telling us the story as a dream narrative -- it's obviously summarising important points rather than just being a random dream, but it doesn't have to be more than a symbolic representation of what happened. As a storytelling tool, this allows GRRM to keep the secret while giving away a strong sense of what happened.

The important takeaway from Ned's ToJ dream is that the 3KG swore a vow and thus could not come to an accommodation with Ned, and as a result the two sides fought. The exact nature of the vow and the reasons why it proved incompatible with an accommodation with Ned remains, for now, something we can only speculate on.

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. It seems an obvious conclusion that the narrative we have is dramatically simplified. It just doesn't make much sense that the conversation between Ned and the 3KG wouldn't even touch on these important questions. Here's the advantage of telling us the story as a dream narrative -- it's obviously summarising important points rather than just being a random dream, but it doesn't have to be more than a symbolic representation of what happened. As a storytelling tool, this allows GRRM to keep the secret while giving away a strong sense of what happened.

Agree. Also, and not sure if this has been touched on in any of the RLJ iterations, GRRM has made a deliberate parallel in textual structure between Ned's ToJ dream and Cersei's Maggy dream - they are almost identical in the way that the dreams are laid out, except for one striking difference: Cersei's dream emphasizes "the way it had been in life", over and over. Read the text of the two side by side and you will see that GRRM is making a big point that Cersei's dream is literal, a true recollection of events, in stark contrast to Ned's dream that is meant to be seen as figurative. It's a very intentional crafting of the text meant to show readers that these sequences should be interpreted differently.

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You've seen the standard answer from a few people, which honestly I find a very weak answer. The idea that the 3KG would instantly assume that Ned would hack his nephew's head off just doen't make much sense. On the other hand, nor does the offer above -- Robert has already been declared king at this point. The 3KG know that, as they refer to him as a usurper. They know Ned isn't going to suddenly demand Robert give up the throne to him like that.

Where did anyone say that? Ned certainly wouldn't have killed Jon himself but he would have revealed him to Robert, and that would have been the death of Jon. At best, he would have lost the throne.

The important takeaway from Ned's ToJ dream is that the 3KG swore a vow and thus could not come to an accommodation with Ned, and as a result the two sides fought. The exact nature of the vow and the reasons why it proved incompatible with an accommodation with Ned remains, for now, something we can only speculate on.

Not really. "We are Kingsguard and we do not flee because we swore a vow" and fighting to the death while being remember by the surviving participant as shining examples of KG point pretty much to the vow being the vow.

Agree. Also, and not sure if this has been touched on in any of the RLJ iterations, GRRM has made a deliberate parallel in textual structure between Ned's ToJ dream and Cersei's Maggy dream - they are almost identical in the way that the dreams are laid out, except for one striking difference: Cersei's dream emphasizes "the way it had been in life", over and over. Read the text of the two side by side and you will see that GRRM is making a big point that Cersei's dream is literal, a true recollection of events, in stark contrast to Ned's dream that is meant to be seen as figurative. It's a very intentional crafting of the text meant to show readers that these sequences should be interpreted differently.

Here you go the literal parts.

We have Ned's memories which correlate with the dream, as well as dreaming on another occasion:

He dreamt an old dream,

He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.

of three knights in white cloaks,

Three men in white cloaks, he thought, remembering, and a strange chill went through him.

and a tower long fallen,

Ned had pulled the tower down afterward,

and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

“Lord Eddard,” Lyanna called again.

“I promise,” he whispered. “Lya, I promise …”

Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned.

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood.

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life.

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life.

Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns

They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed

He dreamt an old dream

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life

He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years

In other words: he had had the dream before, many times, in years. He directly confirms parts of the dream as faithfully reflecting reality, and after he wakes up, he elaborates on the details of the event:

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory’s father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.

Ser Boros Blount guarded the far end of the bridge, white steel armor ghostly in the moonlight. Within, Ned passed two other knights of the Kingsguard; Ser Preston Greenfield stood at the bottom of the steps, and Ser Barristan Selmy waited at the door of the king’s bedchamber. Three men in white cloaks, he thought, remembering, and a strange chill went through him.

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I'm familiar with the text. Now pull up Cersei's Maggy dream and read it in juxtaposition to Ned's.

(Signature line: "What do we say to the god of Productivity?" "Not Today.")

Are you opposed to being productive is all pursuits? ;)

I suppose it is too much trouble to go through the same amount of effort as Ygrain or many others do in posting quotes and analysis. I, for one, cannot see how you are seriously differentiating "as they had in life", "as it had been in life" from Ned's dream to the same words in Cersei's.

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[...]

Who knows how often Ned was in the South after that? Evidently, he spent enough time down there to get to know Stannis pretty well. That is clear from both Ned's and Stannis' POVs. Ned also joined up with the royal army during the Greyjoy Rebellion, and at the beginning of AGOT he had to bow and scrape to Cersei, then feast Cersei and Jaime at Winterfell's High Table for all his household to see. Then he went along with betrothing his daughter to Joffrey.

I don't think Ned traveled all that often south. It would have been too much of a hassle, tbh, and a waste of time besides, because what could Ned do for Robert, that Jon Arryn couldn't?

Ned also had the north to govern, that is the largest region in the 7k. Visiting this lord or that lord, something he insisted on as we learn through Jon, would probably have taken up enough of his time.

He probably had an opinion on Stannis from growing up with Robert, (like Robert had an opinion on Lyanna), and judged the man on his martial prowess and ability as a commander -- in westeros, that's one of the most important qualities to a man, it's not a 'personal' evaluation. Ned thought well of Stannis, because Stannis held Storm's end and did pretty well during the Greyjoy rebellion.

That's sufficient for Ned to have a good opinion on the man. That Stannis looks and acts stern, probably helped too.

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I like the way you think.

You've seen the standard answer from a few people, which honestly I find a very weak answer. The idea that the 3KG would instantly assume that Ned would hack his nephew's head off just doen't make much sense. On the other hand, nor does the offer above -- Robert has already been declared king at this point. The 3KG know that, as they refer to him as a usurper. They know Ned isn't going to suddenly demand Robert give up the throne to him like that.

There's got to be something more nuanced going on. The obvious answer is that we simply don't know exactly what was going on with the 3KG. As Addicted to Snow mentioned, this is necessary for narrative purposes -- the secret had to be kept from the reader. It seems an obvious conclusion that the narrative we have is dramatically simplified. It just doesn't make much sense that the conversation between Ned and the 3KG wouldn't even touch on these important questions. Here's the advantage of telling us the story as a dream narrative -- it's obviously summarising important points rather than just being a random dream, but it doesn't have to be more than a symbolic representation of what happened. As a storytelling tool, this allows GRRM to keep the secret while giving away a strong sense of what happened.

I really wish Yandal hand't edited out any positive mention of Ned Stark in his book. I would love to know the in universe official cover story for why the three kingsguard were derelict in their duties to Viserys and why they fought Ned.

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Personally, I find this explanation to be very poor...

I understand your motive for presenting this explanation, as it is the best that you have to offer, but I think most would agree that it is rather lacking, to say the least...

The real reason that the KG did not advise Ned that his sister had just given birth to a son is more likely one of the following::

  • Because the author did not want the audience to know Jon's story at this point (or did not want the audience to come by the information so easily)
  • Because Jon/Jon's birth was of no importance to the King's Guard & they stood their ground for reasons that the author has yet to reveal...

I think that one of these has to be correct...

Does anybody look at their notifications to see who quoted them, before replying? I do sometimes. And it's nice when I see valuable contributors have quoted and/or replied to me, because I know there is the chance for an interesting conversation, or at least exchange. Whenever I see that someone like addicted to snow has quoted me I usually think, "this is going to be a dumpster fire."

I like the way you think.

You've seen the standard answer from a few people, which honestly I find a very weak answer. The idea that the 3KG would instantly assume that Ned would hack his nephew's head off just doen't make much sense. On the other hand, nor does the offer above -- Robert has already been declared king at this point. The 3KG know that, as they refer to him as a usurper. They know Ned isn't going to suddenly demand Robert give up the throne to him like that.

There's got to be something more nuanced going on. The obvious answer is that we simply don't know exactly what was going on with the 3KG. As Addicted to Snow mentioned, this is necessary for narrative purposes -- the secret had to be kept from the reader. It seems an obvious conclusion that the narrative we have is dramatically simplified. It just doesn't make much sense that the conversation between Ned and the 3KG wouldn't even touch on these important questions. Here's the advantage of telling us the story as a dream narrative -- it's obviously summarising important points rather than just being a random dream, but it doesn't have to be more than a symbolic representation of what happened. As a storytelling tool, this allows GRRM to keep the secret while giving away a strong sense of what happened.

The important takeaway from Ned's ToJ dream is that the 3KG swore a vow and thus could not come to an accommodation with Ned, and as a result the two sides fought. The exact nature of the vow and the reasons why it proved incompatible with an accommodation with Ned remains, for now, something we can only speculate on.

Weak how?

O, nice.. Would you have the link? :)

Ned's ToJ Dream: More Than We Thought?. There is an unofficial part 2 here, and a part 3 here.

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Does anybody look at their notifications to see who quoted them, before replying? I do sometimes. And it's nice when I see valuable contributors have quoted and/or replied to me, because I know there is the chance for an interesting conversation, or at least exchange. Whenever I see that someone like addicted to snow has quoted me I usually think, "this is going to be a dumpster fire."

Weak how?

Ned's ToJ Dream: More Than We Thought?. There is an unofficial part 2 here, and a part 3 here.

I forgot you wrote that, it's been awhile. It's nice, just want to point one thing out so don't get mad. It doesn't change anything with the comparison. Just that the symbolism is inverted. I know, I know, but Cersei is female, lion, 3, and Ned is Male wolf and 7. So I am trying to figure out if in an odd way she is in a Lyanna role at all but that means going over the full text. The two tourneys sit at a Juxtaposition, Cersei not being chosen by Rhaegar and Lyanna being chosen. But again would really need to reread the whole thing.
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Ah, thank you very much :)

You're welcome.

I forgot you wrote that, it's been awhile. It's nice, just want to point one thing out so don't get mad. It doesn't change anything with the comparison. Just that the symbolism is inverted. I know, I know, but Cersei is female, lion, 3, and Ned is Male wolf and 7. So I am trying to figure out if in an odd way she is in a Lyanna role at all but that means going over the full text. The two tourneys sit at a Juxtaposition, Cersei not being chosen by Rhaegar and Lyanna being chosen. But again would really need to reread the whole thing.

I think that element could be present here.

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Does anybody look at their notifications to see who quoted them, before replying? I do sometimes. And it's nice when I see valuable contributors have quoted and/or replied to me, because I know there is the chance for an interesting conversation, or at least exchange. Whenever I see that someone like addicted to snow has quoted me I usually think, "this is going to be a dumpster fire."

Weak how?

Ned's ToJ Dream: More Than We Thought?. There is an unofficial part 2 here, and a part 3 here.

Good to know addicted to snow is a Washington Redskin. That I need to beat Philly next week.....

#CowboysProblems

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The KG didn't have to fear/think Ned would kill his own nephew. Denying Jon his birthright would be sufficient enough to oppose him. Which is exactly what Ned did. Not only did he not reveal the truth to him, he allowed him to join the Night's Watch without revealing the truth.



It would be unlikely that Ned would turn against Robert and Jon Arryn. So the best outcome in the minds of the KG was a Jon who was denied his birthright. Why risk this? Especially since they were confident in their ability to beat Ned and his 6 companions. None of which were renowned, unlike the KG. Not to mention some of the KG might have been a bit bitter of the death of their long time friend Rhaegar who they had been waiting a long time to become king.


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You're welcome.

I think that element could be present here.

To be clear I mean a juxtaposition between both the tourneys and both dreams and then they relate to each other the association being an Inverse between Lyanna and Cersei. Like Robert ending up with Cersei and having 3 children, Lyanna having one and 3 and 1 do that in the books a lot. Plus Maggie the frog Howland the frog eater, that one is pretty obvious.

ETA: Cersei leads 3 girls to Maggie the frog. Lyanna chases 3 boys away from the Frog eater. You know there may be something there. Cersei ends up with Robert who wanted Lyanna, and Lyanna ends up with Rhaegar who Cersei wanted.

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To be clear I mean a juxtaposition between both the tourneys and both dreams and then they relate to each other the association being an Inverse between Lyanna and Cersei. Like Robert ending up with Cersei and having 3 children, Lyanna having one and 3 and 1 do that in the books a lot. Plus Maggie the frog Howland the frog eater, that one is pretty obvious.

ETA: Cersei leads 3 girls to Maggie the frog. Lyanna chases 3 boys away from the Frog eater. You know there may be something there. Cersei ends up with Robert who wanted Lyanna, and Lyanna ends up with Rhaegar who Cersei wanted.

Yeah, there could be something there. I'm a bit wary about the certainty of conclusions we can draw from the numbers 7 and 3, though. They pop up so damn often. Then again, I don't think the 7 vs. 3 at the ToJ was by coincidence. So maybe it means something in Cersei's dream, too. Keep exploring. Let us know what you come up with. Feel free to post in my thread, if you'd like.

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