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R+L=J v.119


Jon Weirgaryen

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The KG vow has been discussed at length here at times, but do we have an idea of what the generic vows of knighthood are?

Generically, I think the knightly vows concern:

  1. defense of the weak; and

obedience to one's commander(s).

A couple of passages come to mind. First, Gendry's induction into the brotherhood of the knights of the hollow hill. Lord Beric does the honors:

...the lightning lord did not set the blade afire, but merely laid it light on Gendry's shoulder. "Gendry, do you swear before the eyes of gods and men to defend those who cannot defend themselves, to protect all women and children, to obey your captains, your liege lord, and your king, to fight bravely when needed and do such other tasks as are laid upon you, however hard or humble or dangerous they may be?"

"I do, m'lord."

The marcher lord moved the sword from the right shoulder to the left, and said, "Arise Ser Gendry, knight of the hollow hill, and be welcome to our brotherhood." [3.39, ARYA]

We also have various statements made in Hedge Knight, including Ser Duncan's claim that he was charged as a knight by the good Ser Arlan of Pennytree (may he rest in peace). The master of the lists at the Ashford Tourney is dubious, so Dunk tries to say all the right things to convince him he truly is a knight:

"I have never heard of this Arlan of Pennytree... You were his squire, you say?"

"He always said he meant for me to be a knight, as he was. When he was dying he called for his longsword and bade me kneel. He touched me once on my right shoulder and once on my left, and said some words, and when I got up he said I was a knight."

"Hmpf." The man Plummer rubbed his nose."Any knight can make a knight, it is true, though it is more customary to stand a vigil and be anointed by a septon before taking your vows. Were there any witnesses to your dubbing?"

"Only a robin, up in a thorn tree. I heard it as the old man was saying the words. He charged me to be a good knight and true, to obey the seven gods, defend the weak and innocent, serve my lord faithfully and defend the realm with all my might, and I swore that I would." [The Hedge Knight]

Later, as Dunk pleads with the crowd for one more knight to join him in his trial of seven, he defends himself against the accusations of Prince Aerion by appealing to the primary charge of knighthood:

“[ser Arlan] was a good man, and he taught me how to be a knight. Not only sword and lance, but honor. A knight defends the innocent, he said. ... ARE THERE NO TRUE KNIGHTS AMONG YOU?" [The Hedge Knight]

And finally, when he announces his intent to fight for Dunk, Prince Baelor appeals to that same basic charge (defense of the weak or innocent):

"This man protected the weak, as every true knight must," replied Prince Baelor. "Let the gods determine if he was right or wrong." [The Hedge Knight]

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Hold up a sec. What you are talking about is the first duty of the Kingsguard. We know it's not the only one. "The white knights were sworn to obey the king's commands as well, to keep his secrets, counsel him when counsel was requested and keep silent when it was not, serve his pleasure and defend his name and honor." These are all further vows (or if you prefer aspects of The Vow beyond "protect and defend the king") that the KG are sworn to.

The three at the KG do not specify that it's the Kingsguard vow to protect the King, otherwise this debate wouldn't exist, and there would be no question about R+L=legit J, as GRRM would have stated it in book 1. Many of us interpret that as being the vow referred to, but it is simply not true to say that it's specified.

Agreed.

Martin's also stated in an SSM, that if Rhaegar gave them an order the KG would have to obey. So, limiting their vows to 'protect the king' is somewhat misleading...

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Yes, it's good. It looks straightforward. I agree.

That's not the same thing as proven. It would hardly be a first for GRRM if the most obvious and clear interpretation turned out not to be correct, would it?

So, you are arguing that Ned had a different interpretation of what was said? Remember, we must see it as Ned saw it, to understand it. (BTW, my first sentence was an indirect quote which is why it was blue and in Times Roman.)

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Agreed.

Martin's also stated in an SSM, that if Rhaegar gave them an order the KG would have to obey. So, limiting their vows to 'protect the king' is somewhat misleading...

I don't think their vows are being limited to "protect the king" but rather assigning priority to their vows i.e. protecting the king is their primary objective. If they simply "have to obey" what stops the crown prince, for instance, from ordering one of the KG to kill the king.

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Agreed.

Martin's also stated in an SSM, that if Rhaegar gave them an order the KG would have to obey. So, limiting their vows to 'protect the king' is somewhat misleading...

Produce the full quote. I know exactly which one it is, and GRRM's first sentence is that the Kignsguard vow to protect the king, then goes on to say that they promise to obey the king's orders, and if Rhaegar told them to do something they would do it. If one thinks about it, Rhaegar is not the king, interesting that GRRM says that they would follow his orders. Would they kill the king, if Rhaegar told them to do it? Obviously they don't follow Rhaegar's orders. Barristan tells us the first duty is to protect and defend the king. Jaime says the Kingsguard vow is to protect and defend the king. Ned says: "[Jaime] swore a vow to protect his king's life with his own."

What really matters in the dream is what Ned believes. So, where are you getting that it means something else, from Ned's perspective?

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So, you are arguing that Ned had a different interpretation of what was said? Remember, we must see it as Ned saw it, to understand it. (BTW, my first sentence was an indirect quote which is why it was blue and in Times Roman.)

We don't know what Ned's interpretation was, we know what his dream was. We draw our own interpretations from his dream, on the pretty certain assumption that the dream represents Ned's experiences. We know from Ned's dream, that a vow played an important part in the impasse between himself and the 3KG. That's what we know.

While it is a more than reasonable assumption that the vow referenced was indeed the Kingsguard vow, it is not reasonable to dismiss alternative interpretations that are consistent with the limited amount we know simply because we have a different interpretation that fits nicely. We may have a very good explanation of the vow already, but not a conclusive one because other possibilities are not excluded.

To put it very simply, Protect may be the best explanation, but we cannot disprove Obey. Therefore the nature of the vow remains up for debate.

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Did the ToJ have walls??? It was most likely a small, unmortered structure, since two men & a handful of horses were able to pull it down...

People sure like to flop around on this.

It was a watchtower, of course it had walls. The whole point of it is that it's a defensive structure.

Secondly, you think that a watchtower without walls, would be a good place for a pregnant woman to give birth in? Ya let's just make this as difficult as possible for her and the baby by having them exposed to the heat of Dorne during the day, and the coldness of it at night. Not to mention how bad it would be if it rained. Rhaegar named it his tower of joy, it wouldn't be a very joyful place if yof froze your ass off every night.

Thirdly, there were servants there. So it was big enough for Rhaegar, Lyanna, some servants, and 3 KG. It was a fairly decent sized tower.

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We don't know what Ned's interpretation was, we know what his dream was.

Ned says: "[Jaime] swore a vow to protect his king's life with his own." That is what Ned believes the Kingsguard vow is. It is a direct quote.

We draw our own interpretations from his dream, on the pretty certain assumption that the dream represents Ned's experiences. We know from Ned's dream, that a vow played an important part in the impasse between himself and the 3KG. That's what we know.

Ned says: "[Jaime] swore a vow to protect his king's life with his own." We know this, since Ned says it directly to Robert. Not a vow, the Kingsguard vow.

Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

The Kingsguard does not flee, then or now, because we swore a vow. It looks very straightforward to me. "We" the Kingsguard swore a vow to protect and defend the king, dying for him if need be, so we will not flee to Dragonstone to be with Prince Viserys and Queen Rhaella, as we would not have before King Aerys was slain.

While it is a more than reasonable assumption that the vow referenced was indeed the Kingsguard vow, it is not reasonable to dismiss alternative interpretations that are consistent with the limited amount we know simply because we have a different interpretation that fits nicely. We may have a very good explanation of the vow already, but not a conclusive one because other possibilities are not excluded.

Ned says: "[Jaime] swore a vow to protect his king's life with his own." I am dismissing all the made up crap. Show me where Ned says that it is anything else.

To put it very simply, Protect may be the best explanation, but we cannot disprove Obey. Therefore the nature of the vow remains up for debate.

Ned says: "[Jaime] swore a vow to protect his king's life with his own." Jaime says "protect and defend the king." GRRM says that they vow to protect the king and the royal family. Then he goes on to mention promises to obey, etc. It would be silly for GRRM to create his mystery, then outright give it away with an unsullied answer.

What matters in the tower of joy sequence is what Ned understands it to mean. Ned understands it to mean protect the king's life with his own. If you think otherwise provide evidence. Otherwise words are indeed wind.

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Possible, but last man standing doesn't mean a whole lot, and Ned seems to be talking about honour and nobility more than prowess with a sword.

So was I.

I will frankly be very surprised if there isn't more to Arthur than what we've seen so far. I think that's hinted at in this SSM:

It certainly is. That sad smile on Arthur's part may also indicate a prior contact between the two.

Yes, it does somewhat boil down to the protect versus obey argument, and the reason that's still an argument is because it's still case unproven. You can claim one side has a much better argument than the other, but it's nonsense to claim it's conclusive. We just don't have enough information to be absolutely certain.

And how certain do I need to be, 100% sharp? 99,9% is not enough? Is that 0,1 somehow equally valid as 99,9?

"Quite impossible" is just way too strong. The whole situation is simply more nuanced than that. Protecting the king is not the sole duty of a Kingsguard, and if they die in the pursuit of their duty while doing something other than protecting the king, does that have to make them less honourable? Viserys is half a hostile continent away, after all.

I don't think that the vow said "protect the king unless he is too far away to bother". And, yes, dying while there is a king without KG protection and not even bother to think about going to him is hardlyan example of carying out the first duty.

However we're assuming that they considered their duty to be to defend Jon, not Viserys. Even then, The Vow is not necessarily the Kingsguard vow to protect their king. From Ned's viewpoint at least, he'd hardly consider himself a threat to Jon. It may very well be that the 3KG and Ned were able to agree on keeping Jon safe, but that there were other considerations that they were NOT able to agree on.

This is really going in circles. They say quite clearly that their duty is at ToJ, all three of them, not at Dragonstone. From Ned's own PoV, he is aligned to the guys who killed Rhaegar's children, even if he himself disagreed. Keeping Jon safe is only possible by keeping him secret, and that is treason. Given how Lyanna had to plead with him, it is apparently not something he would have done on his own.

To put it very simply, Protect may be the best explanation, but we cannot disprove Obey. Therefore the nature of the vow remains up for debate.

Of course we can. Obey at the cost of derelicting Protect is simply not possible. Is the concept of honour really so difficult to grasp these days?

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Produce the full quote. I know exactly which one it is, and GRRM's first sentence is that the Kignsguard vow to protect the king, then goes on to say that they promise to obey the king's orders, and if Rhaegar told them to do something they would do it. If one thinks about it, Rhaegar is not the king, interesting that GRRM says that they would follow his orders. Would they kill the king, if Rhaegar told them to do it? Obviously they don't follow Rhaegar's orders. Barristan tells us the first duty is to protect and defend the king. Jaime says the Kingsguard vow is to protect and defend the king. Ned says: "[Jaime] swore a vow to protect his king's life with his own."

What really matters in the dream is what Ned believes. So, where are you getting that it means something else, from Ned's perspective?

I popped around here, saw Kingmonkey's post, and the post he was responding to, and thought, well, no. Kingmonkey is right. Wrote a reply. Now, I'm taking the time to read the whole conversation, and see that I misunderstood. I don't see the point in trying to find that SSM quote, since I believe most of you are actually acquainted with it.

Concerning the question, whose order the KG would obey; if the choice was between the crown prince and the king, the logical answer is the King, naturally. But our case is not quite the common case. The King and CP did not get along and the King was mad. In that case, if the King's orders and the Prince's orders contradicted themselves, I believe it would have been left to the LC's discretion to decide which order to follow.

In the end, staying true to a vow is also, a matter of interpretation. There's case where there is absolutely no clear cut answer as to what 'staying true' to KG vows should, and shouldn't entail. I don't think the KG have a book where it's all written down black on white. Each KG is sworn to stay true to their vows, obey and protect the King, to the best of their ability and knowledge.

When Dany is away from Meereen, Barristan has no ready made answer for how he's supposed to proceed, but he does his best, based on the knowledge available to him.

EDIT: spelling

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No, this is Kingsguard vows. Kingsguard is a special group of knights.

Ser Leftwich asked: "[D]o we have an idea of what the generic vows of knighthood are?"

My post was in response to that question, which I quoted.

That said, there does seem to be something "special," one might even say peculiar, about the Kingsguard. I believe it boils down to their primary, and dedicated, responsibility to the king and the royal family. Martin lays it out fairly clearly in the Shaw interview, given in 2003. He says the knights of the Kingsguard "serve, protect, and obey" the king and the royal family. I still find it fascinating that this response reappears explicitly in ADWD (in an Areo Hotah chapter), published 7-8 years after that interview. Just for the sake of comparison, here is Martin's interview response in 2003, with relevant emphasis added:

  • Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?

Martin: The King's Guards... serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."

And here is an excerpt from the the Hotah Chapter ("The Watcher"), ADWD (2011), again with relevant text highlighted for emphasis:

Areo Hotah ran his hand along the smooth shaft of his longaxe, his ash-and-iron wife, all the while watching. He watched the white knight, Ser Balon Swann, and the others who had come with him. He watched the Sand Snakes, each at a different table. He watched the lords and ladies, the serving men, the old blind seneschal, and the young maester Myles, with his silky beard and servile smile. Standing half in light and half in shadow, he saw all of them. Serve. Protect. Obey. That was his task.

[...]

"This is monstrous," said Lady Nym. "I would not have believed it, not of a Kingsguard knight."

"They are sworn to obey, just as my captain is," the prince said. "I had my doubts as well, but you all saw how Ser Balon balked when I suggested that we go by sea. A ship would have disturbed all the queen's arrangements."

[...]

Later, when Arianne had gone, he put down his longaxe and lifted Prince Doran into his bed. "Until the Mountain crushed my brother's skull, no Dornishmen had died in this War of the Five Kings," the prince murmured softly, as Hotah pulled a blanket over him. "Tell me, Captain, is that my shame or my glory?"

"That is not for me to say, my prince." Serve. Protect. Obey. Simple vows for simple men. That was all he knew.

Further connecting Hotah's role with that of the Kingsguard knights (beyond the connection explicitly made by Prince Doran), it's worth noting that Hotah's vows are emphasized here in the context of the Dornish reception of Ser Gregor's skull - in other words, a commemoration of vengeance for the deaths of Elia and her children, one of whom was Rhaegar's heir... the same deaths that might have been prevented if 3/7 of the Kingsguard had not been stationed "far away" at the time of the Trident and the Sack.

Interesting to me that Martin seems to have established a clear formula for the duties of the Kingsguard, and that it's appeared explicitly and consistently both in interviews and in his text over the better part of a decade. Also rather remarkable that in spite of the recurring Protect vs. Obey arguments here in the RLJ threads... Martin's formula for Kingsguard responsibility begins with neither "Protect" nor "Obey." It begins with "Serve."

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I popped around here, saw Kingmonkey's post, and the post he was responding to, and thought, well, no. Kingmonkey is right. Wrote a reply. Now, I'm taking the time to read the whole conversation, and see that I misunderstood. I don't see the point in trying to find that SSM quote, since I believe most of you are actually acquainted with it.

Concerning the question, whose order the KG would obey; if the choice was between the crown prince and the king, the logical answer is the King, naturally. But our case is not quite the common case. The King and CP did not get along and the King was mad. In that case, if the King's orders and the Prince's orders contradicted themselves, I believe it would have been left to the LC's discretion to decide which order to follow.

In the end, staying true to a vow is also, a matter of interpretation. There's case where there is absolutely no clear cut answer as to what 'staying true' to KG vows should, and shouldn't entail. I don't think the KG have a book where it's all written down black on white. Each KG is sworn to stay true to their vows, obey and protect the King, to the best of their ability and knowledge.

When Dany is away from Meereen, Barristan has no ready made answer for how he's supposed to proceed, but he does his best, based on the knowledge available to him.

EDIT: spelling

Lord Commander Gerold Hightower's line explicitly expresses that King Aerys was who held his unconditional loyalty: “Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

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Interesting to me that Martin seems to have established a clear formula for the duties of the Kingsguard, and that it's appeared explicitly and consistently both in interviews and in his text over the better part of a decade. Also rather remarkable that in spite of the recurring Protect vs. Obey arguments here in the RLJ threads... Martin's formula for Kingsguard responsibility begins with neither "Protect" nor "Obey." It begins with "Serve."

Once again, the entire point about understanding the vow, is that one must understand what it means to Ned. Ned says: "[Jaime] swore a vow to protect his king's life with his own." Ned had been present, he knows the vow. Jaime says that it is, "protect and defend", and I believe that defending the king's interest (by leading his armies, etc.) is how GRRM is defining "serve". Barristan tells us that the first priority is the king's safety. Indeed, it would seem somewhat ludicrous for a Kingsguard to serve or obey orders in some fashion whilst the king is being slain.

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Once again, the entire point about understanding the vow, is that one must understand what it means to Ned. Ned says: "[Jaime] swore a vow to protect his king's life with his own." Ned had been present, he knows the vow.

Sure. And how do you think an understanding that the Kingsguard should Serve the king would affect Ned's perception of Arthur Dayne, Jaime Lannister, et al?

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Lord Commander Gerold Hightower's line explicitly expresses that King Aerys was who held his unconditional loyalty: “Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

I don't understand why you are quoting this to me. please elaborate.

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Once again, the entire point about understanding the vow, is that one must understand what it means to Ned. Ned says: "[Jaime] swore a vow to protect his king's life with his own." Ned had been present, he knows the vow. Jaime says that it is, "protect and defend", and I believe that defending the king's interest (by leading his armies, etc.) is how GRRM is defining "serve". Barristan tells us that the first priority is the king's safety. Indeed, it would seem somewhat ludicrous for a Kingsguard to serve or obey orders in some fashion whilst the king is being slain.

I'd like to see some quotes where "serve" is being repeatedly emphasized in the text. Unless I get the word count, I'm still going with "die for the king" as the most common phrase reflecting what an ideal KG is supposed to do.

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Concerning the question, whose order the KG would obey; if the choice was between the crown prince and the king, the logical answer is the King, naturally. But our case is not quite the common case. The King and CP did not get along and the King was mad. In that case, if the King's orders and the Prince's orders contradicted themselves, I believe it would have been left to the LC's discretion to decide which order to follow.

Lord Commander Gerold Hightower's line explicitly expresses that King Aerys was who held his unconditional loyalty: “Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

I don't understand why you are quoting this to me. please elaborate.

Because there is no loyalty to the Crown Prince (Rhaegar) being expressed, it is strictly to King Aerys. The Lord Commander is loyal to Aerys, mad or not.

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I'd like to see some quotes where "serve" is being repeatedly emphasized in the text. Unless I get the word count, I'm still going with "die for the king" as the most common phrase reflecting what an ideal KG is supposed to do.

To protect the king with one's own life is what Ned says that it is. We need to understand what Ned believes in order to properly assess the dream sequence, as that forms the basis of our understanding his thoughts about the Kingsguard post tower of joy.

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