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R+L=J v.119


Jon Weirgaryen

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And I'm not questioning the loyalty, at all. I'm saying that being loyal to a person =/= from always following that person's orders over that of another. As in, being loyal to Aerys doesn't exclude following Rhaegar's orders.

To me, Gerold Hightower expressing loyalty toward Aerys actually proves little, because being loyal to the King and being loyal to the Crown Prince are not mutually exclusive. Even, when they stand in apparent conflict with each other.

You do realize that we are talking about the by the book White Bull, don't you? He says that there is no reason to question his loyalty to Aerys. The Kingsguard follow the King's orders. Did Aerys tell Hightower to follow Rhaegar's orders? I don't think so, but it is a possibility. It is very likely with Whent and Dayne, since they are Rhaegar's sworn shields. But, the White Bull does not say I am following orders, he explains, "We (Kingsguard) swore a vow."

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I think this is very likely what is indicated by GRRM's infamous "fever dream" comment. Not that Ned's dream was some feverish nonsense -- that makes no storytelling sense -- but that it was a dream version of what happened. Thus the dialogue becomes symbolic of the impasse, Ned's dream interpretation rather than an account of the discussion as it actually took place.

It's certainly a very tempting interpretation, but it really can't be said that it precludes other interpretations. Take a look here:

While this is brought up in the context of the Kingsguard, it is as "The finest knight" that Eddard remembers Arthur, and "a shining lesson to the world". I find it easy to read this as hinting that Arthur was doing rather more than simply following his Kingsguard duties to the letter. Why would he place Arthur above any of the KG who died at the Trident, or indeed Barristan for that matter? There's something special about Arthur in Ned's mind, and given Ned's sense of honour, this hints that Arthur was attempting to be more true, more honourable than simply keeping his KG vow. Ned's sadness and refusal to say more might simply be the reminder of Lyanna, but I think it's more than that; Ned really regrets having killed Arthur, perhaps because he came to realise that he and Arthur were not truly on opposite sides, but were tragically unable to find a middle ground.

Perhaps the strongest point to me that there may have been more to it than the KG's vows is the matter of literary parallel. Ned also swore vows, and they haunt him. Ned and Arthur are both men of honour who keep vows. If Arthur's vows were no more than the kingsguard's primary vow "protect the king", then the impasse is harder to see, and the tragedy that much weaker.

As you say, Ned wouldn't have supported Jon's claim to the throne, but that's not the KG vow. The fact of the matter is that Ned was in a far better position than the 3KG to protect Jon's life. Had the 3KG prevailed, they would have made Jon's survival considerably less likely. Of course it is possible that the 3KG were just dumb as bricks, or more likely that there was indeed a parley and they were simply unconvinced, but this does leave scope for there being more to The Vow than simply protecting the king.

It makes no sense for a fever dream to be an accurate depiction of reality. Instead it seems like a simple way to fool readers expecting a standard fairytale.
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It makes no sense for a fever dream to be an accurate depiction of reality. Sounds like a simple way to fool readers expecting a standard fairytale.

It is not just a fever dream, it is a recurring dream. Ergo Ned has had the dream before. Then you get as they had in life, so you know that it is something that really happened.

ETA: New Thread (v.120)

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It is not just a fever dream, it is a recurring dream. Ergo Ned has had the dream before. Then you get as they had in life, so you know that it is something that really happened.

ETA: New Thread (v.120)

As they had in life was in dream. It may be a recurring dream but still a dream and what we see on page happens during a fever dream and seems to be triggered by learning Jory is dead. To me that isn't exactly something we should read as 100% fact.

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What other reason can the White Bull have?

An order.

Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."

That's another reason right from GRRM's mouth.

The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard has decided that all three would stay at the tower, and we know the primary duty of the Kingsguard is to see to the safety of the king. It seems quite logical to presume that the king is present.

I did give the proof in the analysis. Did you have anything that opposes it?

Yes, it seems logical. No, it's not the only possibility. This is the point I'm trying to get across. I'm not opposed to your theory. I think it's a good theory. I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm saying it's not certain.

You haven't given any proof, you've given evidence. To be proof, it would have to equally disprove the alternatives. Show me where your evidence precludes the possibility that they were obeying an order from Rhaegar.

Look at what GRRM says above. He provides TWO reason. Protect and Obey. I'm sure he does so quite intentionally, to keep the mystery open. You are claiming that only one of these reasons is possible. Let's look at your points.

The White Bull, as Ser Gerold is known, is quite the stickler when it comes to the comport of Kingsguard duties.

Compatible with obeying an order from Rhaegar, which is a kingsguard duty

Ser Gerold does not have a friendship with Rhaegar that would favor this decision.

Compatible with obeying an order from Rhaegar, who gets to give orders as his prince, not his friend.

Ser Gerold has already stated that he would slay Jaime to protect Aerys.

Compatible with obeying an order from Rhaegar, who was Aerys' heir.

Ser Gerold’s decision to keep Arthur and Oswell with him only protects the king (the primary purpose of the Kingsguard) if the king is present at the tower.

True. However, he doesn't get to make up orders. "... if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that." Therefore this is also compatible with obeying an order from Rhaeger, if he ordered the three of them to guard Lyanna, or whatever. Hightower sending Ozzy and Arthur away against Rhaegar's orders wouldn't happen.

Ned knows that these men were honoring their Kingsguard vow. There is no other vow that Ned is ever aware of. He thinks of these three as the epitome of honor and skill. A shining example for the world.

Ned doesn't mention another vow, but that doesn't mean he's not aware of one -- he doesn't mention Jon being at the tower, but you don't doubt that. If there was another vow, and this was key to the secret, then GRRM would not mention it, as to mention it would reveal the secret. Just as he does not reveal that Jon was at the tower. Thus this is also compatible with an order from Rhaegar.

You also don't deal with another possibility -- that the king was indeed present, but that the vow mentioned was one sworn to Rhaegar. "We do not flee" is not precisely true. They do not flee from their duty, but the could flee with the King. This actually makes more sense of the situation, because the Kingsguard vow does not demand that the 3KG fight with Ned. There's one very simple piece of proof (yes, proof) of this.

Ned has been protecting Jon for 14 years.

The primary vow of the KG is to protect the king. If the king is at the ToJ, the king is Jon. Ned protects Jon. Therefore there is no necessary conflict between the KG primary vow and Ned's position.

This leaves two possibilities.

1. The 3KG failed to discover that Ned would protect Jon before they started fighting (an unnecessary conflict).

2. There was something else in play that made it impossible for Ned and the 3KG to come to an accommodation (a necessary conflict). Given the thematic importance of vows, they would be the likely something.

1 is perfectly possible. It makes for a good tragedy, but it does require some foolish decisions. Ned remembers Arthur as a shining example, but not of brains. The 3KG may indeed have been thick as bricks for all we know. Ned could be excused if he didn't have the full information and still believed they were simply trying to keep him away from Lyanna.

2 is a better story, a grand tragedy where circumstances and honour, rather than foolishness and omission, force the two sides into conflict. Ned thinks about the burden of vows, not the burden of foolishness.*

*Actually, there's the time when he's talking to Cersei where he refers to making more mistakes than he knows. This might refer to a failure to find an acceptable middle ground with the 3KG, amongst other things.

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You do realize that we are talking about the by the book White Bull, don't you? He says that there is no reason to question his loyalty to Aerys. The Kingsguard follow the King's orders. Did Aerys tell Hightower to follow Rhaegar's orders? I don't think so, but it is a possibility. It is very likely with Whent and Dayne, since they are Rhaegar's sworn shields. But, the White Bull does not say I am following orders, he explains, "We (Kingsguard) swore a vow."

Why did all 3 KG stay behind when Rhaegar rode to King's Landing and to war? They were following orders. They swore to obey and so they did while their king was in King's Landing. They did not stay away to protect a king.

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What I have yet to see is anyone present a remotely plausible argument as to why they would stay at the TOJ AFTER they find out Rhaegar, Aerys, and Aegon are dead. There is a clear heir in need of protection, with NO Kingsguard presence. Instead of sending at least one person to him, they continue to follow the orders of a dead crown prince, whose order-giving authority extended from a now dead king. Then, whenever Ned learns the complete situation, whatever it is, he considers them shining examples to the rest of the world. A man who has forsworn other vows to protect children. A man who I highly doubt would consider a dead crown prince's orders as overriding leaving a child unprotected against what they know Robert's advisers will do to potential rival claimants.


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