R+L=J v.119

[addicted to snow]

Thanks.

I'm truly shocked that Snowfyre endorsed it. "J. Star, there's no need to be rude and insulting to me." Hmm, someone was rude and insulting to J. Star. "Good post." - Snowfyre

Nobody was rude or insulted you, it is the BEST explanation that fits R+L=J... I gave you credit for having the best possible explanation from your perspective... If you do not understand that it is lacking, then I suggest you re-read Kingmonkey's previous post...

& get your feelings off your shoulder...

[addicted to snow]

ETA: Solely on its own, the point perhaps may be argued. In collusion with Arthur Dayne being considered the most exemplary KG ever, I don't think there can be any shadow of doubt that Arthur Dayne died doing his primary duty, giving his life for his king. While other options might lead to holding him in high esteem as a knight/man of honour, nothing else can explain such a level of esteem as Kingsguard.

It appears that this was Ned's view, but then one must consider that he killed Author Dayne immediately thereafter & would have never learned if he was referring to another vow or not...

This is EXACTLY the type of trick that GRRM uses to lead his readers into making false conclusions so that he can later shock them...

--

I don't understand why it is so hard for people to believe that there might be more to this story than meets the eye... The Author has only offered bits & pieces of what is going on because he is hiding something...

[addicted to snow]

Well unless Ned fought Dayne with Ice, Dawn would have shredded his sword to bits like it did to the Smiling Knight's. So I've always kind of wondered if it was just a case of Ned's sword breaking and Howland throwing him a new one as Dayne moved in for the kill. I mean we're told by Martin that Dawn has broken swords before, so why not here?

And I'm not so sure that they did think that they'd win or were even trying to. After all, they gave up the advantages of fighting Ned from behind the safety of the walls, which is completely against Dayne's character as we learn from Jaime who says that Dayne insisted on fortifying all of his military camps even if there was no risk of attack. So for him to give up the advantages of the watchtower's walls suggest beating Ned wasn't their main concern.

Did the ToJ have walls??? It was most likely a small, unmortered structure, since two men & a handful of horses were able to pull it down...

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Did the ToJ have walls??? It was most likely a small, unmortered structure, since two men & a handful of horses were able to pull it down...

No, Ned did that all by himself:

Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge.

AGoT 39 Eddard X

(I don't believe in comic sans...) eta: edited the chapter ref in

[Kingmonkey]

Besides, since the dialogue is definitely not the actual one, it is quite possible that they did indeed parley before the fight.

I think this is very likely what is indicated by GRRM's infamous "fever dream" comment. Not that Ned's dream was some feverish nonsense -- that makes no storytelling sense -- but that it was a dream version of what happened. Thus the dialogue becomes symbolic of the impasse, Ned's dream interpretation rather than an account of the discussion as it actually took place.

The context of the reference to the vow does seem to preclude other vows.

ETA: Solely on its own, the point perhaps may be argued. In collusion with Arthur Dayne being considered the most exemplary KG ever, I don't think there can be any shadow of doubt that Arthur Dayne died doing his primary duty, giving his life for his king. While other options might lead to holding him in high esteem as a knight/man of honour, nothing else can explain such a level of esteem as Kingsguard.

It's certainly a very tempting interpretation, but it really can't be said that it precludes other interpretations. Take a look here:

Something his father had told him once when he was little came back to him suddenly. He had asked Lord Eddard if the Kingsguard were truly the finest knights in the Seven Kingdoms. "No longer," he answered, "but once they were a marvel, a shining lesson to the world."

"Was there one who was best of all?"

"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. Bran wished he had asked him what he meant.

While this is brought up in the context of the Kingsguard, it is as "The finest knight" that Eddard remembers Arthur, and "a shining lesson to the world". I find it easy to read this as hinting that Arthur was doing rather more than simply following his Kingsguard duties to the letter. Why would he place Arthur above any of the KG who died at the Trident, or indeed Barristan for that matter? There's something special about Arthur in Ned's mind, and given Ned's sense of honour, this hints that Arthur was attempting to be more true, more honourable than simply keeping his KG vow. Ned's sadness and refusal to say more might simply be the reminder of Lyanna, but I think it's more than that; Ned really regrets having killed Arthur, perhaps because he came to realise that he and Arthur were not truly on opposite sides, but were tragically unable to find a middle ground.

Perhaps the strongest point to me that there may have been more to it than the KG's vows is the matter of literary parallel. Ned also swore vows, and they haunt him. Ned and Arthur are both men of honour who keep vows. If Arthur's vows were no more than the kingsguard's primary vow "protect the king", then the impasse is harder to see, and the tragedy that much weaker.

As you say, Ned wouldn't have supported Jon's claim to the throne, but that's not the KG vow. The fact of the matter is that Ned was in a far better position than the 3KG to protect Jon's life. Had the 3KG prevailed, they would have made Jon's survival considerably less likely. Of course it is possible that the 3KG were just dumb as bricks, or more likely that there was indeed a parley and they were simply unconvinced, but this does leave scope for there being more to The Vow than simply protecting the king.

[Kingmonkey]

I know Ned was very unlikely to join the side that had just lost RR, but, of all the Lords Paramount, he was the most likely to do so. If the KG knew they were about to lose the showdown, wouldn't they at least try to turn him - if only to poison Robert's new reign with division? That was my query.

But if they assumed they would win the showndown, it makes sense how they reacted to Ned. After reading MtnLion's contribution, I'm convinced they did assume they would win. Furthermore, I believe they should have won! Which makes me all the more eager to find out what Howland Reed did to save Ned's life...

In reality, the 3KG would be insane to think they'd win against seven experienced if inferior fighters lead by a skilled battle commander. You assign one man each to fight a highly defensive fight against two of your opponents, with one man over so that neither of them could concentrate wholly on the person facing them but would be forced to fight a highly defensive style themselves. That leaves you four men onto one, which would end very quickly. Then you're seven on two, rinse and repeat. As you say, force concentration.

On the other hand, it's not reality. Jaime's claim that Arthur could have killed five of Tommen's KG whilst taking a piss was obviously hyperbole, but obviously in GRRMworld numbers are not quite so important.

However that raises an oft-forgotten question: why did Ned only bring seven men, when he had an army at his disposal?

The obvious conclusion is that he had at least a fair idea of what he was going to find, and he brought a number which he felt balanced the need for secrecy with the numbers for victory. If he wasn't reasonably confident he had the stronger force, he might have brought eight, or nine, or ten. If he wasn't going there prepared to keep secrets, he could have brought a hundred, or a thousand. Any attempt to understand what happened at the ToJ that doesn't take this into account is missing a major point.

[MtnLion]

Well unless Ned fought Dayne with Ice, Dawn would have shredded his sword to bits like it did to the Smiling Knight's. So I've always kind of wondered if it was just a case of Ned's sword breaking and Howland throwing him a new one as Dayne moved in for the kill. I mean we're told by Martin that Dawn has broken swords before, so why not here?

And I'm not so sure that they did think that they'd win or were even trying to. After all, they gave up the advantages of fighting Ned from behind the safety of the walls, which is completely against Dayne's character as we learn from Jaime who says that Dayne insisted on fortifying all of his military camps even if there was no risk of attack. So for him to give up the advantages of the watchtower's walls suggest beating Ned wasn't their main concern.

What walls could they have fought from behind? Would it be advantageous for Dayne to try to fight with Dawn (a great sword, a two hander, over four feet long) inside a confined space? Would it be chivalrous to continue to attack Ned when he was at disadvantage? Dayne paused to let the Smiling Knight fetch a new blade, after all.

[MtnLion]

While this is brought up in the context of the Kingsguard, it is as "The finest knight" that Eddard remembers Arthur, and "a shining lesson to the world". I find it easy to read this as hinting that Arthur was doing rather more than simply following his Kingsguard duties to the letter. Why would he place Arthur above any of the KG who died at the Trident, or indeed Barristan for that matter? There's something special about Arthur in Ned's mind, and given Ned's sense of honour, this hints that Arthur was attempting to be more true, more honourable than simply keeping his KG vow. Ned's sadness and refusal to say more might simply be the reminder of Lyanna, but I think it's more than that; Ned really regrets having killed Arthur, perhaps because he came to realise that he and Arthur were not truly on opposite sides, but were tragically unable to find a middle ground.

Perhaps the strongest point to me that there may have been more to it than the KG's vows is the matter of literary parallel. Ned also swore vows, and they haunt him. Ned and Arthur are both men of honour who keep vows. If Arthur's vows were no more than the kingsguard's primary vow "protect the king", then the impasse is harder to see, and the tragedy that much weaker.

As you say, Ned wouldn't have supported Jon's claim to the throne, but that's not the KG vow. The fact of the matter is that Ned was in a far better position than the 3KG to protect Jon's life. Had the 3KG prevailed, they would have made Jon's survival considerably less likely. Of course it is possible that the 3KG were just dumb as bricks, or more likely that there was indeed a parley and they were simply unconvinced, but this does leave scope for there being more to The Vow than simply protecting the king.

This what Ned thinks of Jaime: His sword helped taint the throne you sit on, Ned thought, but did not permit the words to pass his lips. "He swore a vow to protect his king's life with his own. Then he opened that king's throat with a sword."

Ned despises Jaime because he broke his vow, now compare that to Ned's shining appraisal of the Kingsguard (Jaime was one, but later) and Arthur in particular. Also, be mindful that Ned was present when Jaime gave his vows to King Aerys, and Hightower gave him his white cloak.

[RumHam]

This what Ned thinks of Jaime: His sword helped taint the throne you sit on, Ned thought, but did not permit the words to pass his lips. "He swore a vow to protect his king's life with his own. Then he opened that king's throat with a sword."

Ned despises Jaime because he broke his vow, now compare that to Ned's shining appraisal of the Kingsguard (Jaime was one, but later) and Arthur in particular. Also, be mindful that Ned was present when Jaime gave his vows to King Aerys, and Hightower gave him his white cloak.

There's a huge difference between failing to protect your king and murdering him.

[MtnLion]

In reality, the 3KG would be insane to think they'd win against seven experienced if inferior fighters lead by a skilled battle commander.

Well, let's look at this carefully. Barristan who is Arthur Dayne's equal, according to GRRM, unless Arthur has Dawn; killed a dozen war hardened friends of Robert and Ned at the Trident before getting too wounded to continue. Jaime slew a dozen, too, before being captured. Interesting, since Jaime is the best current fighter, according to GRRM. I am surprised that Arthur didn't take on the seven all by himself, and win, given the way GRRM likes to paint his fighters, Jaime, Barristan, Arthur . . .

[Kingmonkey]

This what Ned thinks of Jaime: His sword helped taint the throne you sit on, Ned thought, but did not permit the words to pass his lips. "He swore a vow to protect his king's life with his own. Then he opened that king's throat with a sword."

Ned despises Jaime because he broke his vow, now compare that to Ned's shining appraisal of the Kingsguard (Jaime was one, but later) and Arthur in particular. Also, be mindful that Ned was present when Jaime gave his vows to King Aerys, and Hightower gave him his white cloak.

Jaime broke his vow to protect Aerys. Even though Ned wanted Aerys dead, he was appalled at Jaime for being the one to do the deed, because of that vow. Vows are *very* important to Ned.

Arthur also swore to protect the king, and clearly Ned would not have thought of Arthur the way he did had be broken that vow. On the other hand, keeping that vow isn't enough to make someone the shining example, or the shining example could have been Darry, or Prince Lewyn, or any number of others. There's something more to Ned's respect of Arthur than just that he, like the majority of Kingsguards, kept his vow to protect the king.

[Kingmonkey]

Well, let's look at this carefully. Barristan who is Arthur Dayne's equal, according to GRRM, unless Arthur has Dawn; killed a dozen war hardened friends of Robert and Ned at the Trident before getting too wounded to continue. Jaime slew a dozen, too, before being captured. Interesting, since Jaime is the best current fighter, according to GRRM. I am surprised that Arthur didn't take on the seven all by himself, and win, given the way GRRM likes to paint his fighters, Jaime, Barristan, Arthur . . .

No disagreement there, the bit you quoted was "in reality". My following paragraph makes the same point about GRRM's view of skilled fighters.

However, that still raises the question of why Ned took only seven men if he thought they'd have no chance to win the fight.

[Ser Leftwich]

Ned says that that Arthur is a shining example of knighthood in general, not just of the KG.

The KG vow has been discussed at length here at times, but do we have an idea of what the generic vows of knighthood are?

Jaime has the "So many vows" speech, from which we can glean some ideas.

Jaime reached for the flagon to refill his cup. “So many vows . . . they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It’s too much. No matter what you do, you’re forsaking one vow or the other.”
- ACoK p. 796

IIRC, in the full ceremony version of being knighted there is anointing with seven oils and individual vows to the Seven gods. But that is never fully outlined.

Was Arthur doing something outstanding as a knight in general which Ned is appreciating? Say Protecting and innocent or defending someone who is weak?

[MtnLion]

No disagreement there, the bit you quoted was "in reality". My following paragraph makes the same point about GRRM's view of skilled fighters.

However, that still raises the question of why Ned took only seven men if he thought they'd have no chance to win the fight.

I don't believe that Ned was expecting to encounter the Kingsguard, or that he would be foiled in offering them a way out of the fight. Ned took 4 fighters, a crannogman, and a squire that had been jailed for about a year in the Black Cells.

[MtnLion]

Ned says that that Arthur is a shining example of knighthood in general, not just of the KG.

The KG vow has been discussed at length here at times, but do we have an idea of what the generic vows of knighthood are?

Jaime has the "So many vows" speech, from which we can glean some ideas.

Jaime reached for the flagon to refill his cup. “So many vows . . . they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It’s too much. No matter what you do, you’re forsaking one vow or the other.”

- ACoK p. 796

IIRC, in the full ceremony version of being knighted there is anointing with seven oils and individual vows to the Seven gods. But that is never fully outlined.

Was Arthur doing something outstanding as a knight in general which Ned is appreciating? Say Protecting and innocent or defending someone who is weak?

Ned knows of only one Kingsguard vow, and the three at the tower specify that it is the Kingsguard vow. That vow is singular, and it is to protect and defend the king, dying for him if need be. Yes, there are other promises, but only one Kingsguard vow.

[sj4iy]

Ned says that that Arthur is a shining example of knighthood in general, not just of the KG.

The KG vow has been discussed at length here at times, but do we have an idea of what the generic vows of knighthood are?

Jaime has the "So many vows" speech, from which we can glean some ideas.

Jaime reached for the flagon to refill his cup. So many vows . . . they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. Its too much. No matter what you do, youre forsaking one vow or the other.

- ACoK p. 796

IIRC, in the full ceremony version of being knighted there is anointing with seven oils and individual vows to the Seven gods. But that is never fully outlined.

Was Arthur doing something outstanding as a knight in general which Ned is appreciating? Say Protecting and innocent or defending someone who is weak?

Well, dying to protect Jon would cover most of them.

1. Guard the king

2. Defend the king

3. Guard his secrets

4. Die for him

5. Defend the weak

6. Protect the innocent

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Ned says that that Arthur is a shining example of knighthood in general, not just of the KG.

The KG vow has been discussed at length here at times, but do we have an idea of what the generic vows of knighthood are?

Jaime has the "So many vows" speech, from which we can glean some ideas.

Jaime reached for the flagon to refill his cup. “So many vows . . . they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It’s too much. No matter what you do, you’re forsaking one vow or the other.”

- ACoK p. 796

IIRC, in the full ceremony version of being knighted there is anointing with seven oils and individual vows to the Seven gods. But that is never fully outlined.

Was Arthur doing something outstanding as a knight in general which Ned is appreciating? Say Protecting and innocent or defending someone who is weak?

Petitioning the rights of the smallfolk of the Kingswood against Aerys during the campaign against the Brotherhood comes to mind...

[Ygrain]

Ned says that that Arthur is a shining example of knighthood in general, not just of the KG.

The KG vow has been discussed at length here at times, but do we have an idea of what the generic vows of knighthood are?

Jaime has the "So many vows" speech, from which we can glean some ideas.

Jaime reached for the flagon to refill his cup. “So many vows . . . they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It’s too much. No matter what you do, you’re forsaking one vow or the other.”

- ACoK p. 796

IIRC, in the full ceremony version of being knighted there is anointing with seven oils and individual vows to the Seven gods. But that is never fully outlined.

Was Arthur doing something outstanding as a knight in general which Ned is appreciating? Say Protecting and innocent or defending someone who is weak?

Sorry but this is not correct. Ned names Arthur as "the finest knight", true, but in the context of talking the qualities of Kingsguard, so he actually means "the finest knight (of the Kingsguard)".

[The Twinslayer]

Ned knows of only one Kingsguard vow, and the three at the tower specify that it is the Kingsguard vow. That vow is singular, and it is to protect and defend the king, dying for him if need be. Yes, there are other promises, but only one Kingsguard vow.

Is there a meaningful difference between a "vow" and a "promise"?

Here is Ned's description of a vow he received from Tobho Mott: "The direwolf is the sigil of House Stark, is it not? I could fashion a direwolf helm so real that children will run from you in the street," he vowed. Ned smiled.

Here is Ned's description of a promise he made to Lyanna: Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

IIRC, in the full ceremony version of being knighted there is anointing with seven oils and individual vows to the Seven gods. But that is never fully outlined.

We do see some of how knighting works in The Hedge Knight:

The Laughing Storm gave an impatient shake of the head. “Go to him, Ser Duncan. I’ll give squire Raymun his knighthood.” He slid his sword out of his sheath and shouldered Dunk aside. “Raymun of House Fossoway,” he began solemnly, touching the blade to the squire’s right shoulder, “in the name of the Warrior I charge you to be brave.” The sword moved from his right shoulder to his left. “In the name of the Father I charge you to be just.” Back to the right. “In the name of the Mother I charge you to defend the young and innocent.” The left. “In the name of the Maid I charge you to protect all women.”

I'd guess that's not complete (and this is obviously not the most elaborate form of the knighting ritual as they don't really have time for Raymun Fossoway to stand vigil in a sept, they've got a Trial by Seven to get to). Also Lyonel doesn't charge Raymund with anything in the name of the Crone or Smith (or the Stranger, but it's likely they don't invoke the Stranger's name during knighting).