R+L=J v.119

[Fire Eater]

It is possible that his human body will die and his spirit will go into Ghost; and that the event that will precipitate his return to human form will be that Ghost will die. When he is in that bodiless state Varymir described, he will have to try to go somewhere. Why not try to go into his own "dead" body?

And, it would be interesting if he is able to ressurect himself by re-animating his own body after it is dead, rather than relying on someone else to do it for him.

I do think he will probably go back into his original body. Otherwise, what is the point of giving him blood from both Starks and Targs? The blood seems to be important.

He likely isn't dead, but comatose. GRRM doesn't do full-scale resurrections.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

He likely isn't dead, but comatose. GRRM doesn't do full-scale resurrections.

Whaaaaaa? What about Beric and Cat and Gregor.? Or was that said in humor. Good Humor is found in the freezer.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

Whaaaaaa? What about Beric and Cat and Gregor.? Or was that said in humor. Good Humor is found in the freezer.

I think the point is that they all came back somewhat less than they were before.

[Mithras]

I think the point is that they all came back somewhat less than they were before.

And none of them were POVs or continued to get POVs.

[finger]

Jon had seen too much of life and death, he was researching death.

He was keeping wighs in the ice cells for some purpose.

I can't really guess how it all will develope, but I may try.

Who's Coldhads? He might be some wigh warged by someone, BR... or Benjen, who knows?

Jon could warg some dead body he's keeping. Since we're dealing with magic, anything can happen.

[BearQueen87]

I don't think Jon is actually dead, just insdie Ghost. BUT if there was one character who would be treated to actual death and actual resurrection without a (negative) change in his character, it would be Jon. I do think that when Jon returns to his body he's going to be more resolute and determined but I don't see him going all "Un"

[sj4iy]

I don't think Jon is actually dead, just insdie Ghost. BUT if there was one character who would be treated to actual death and actual resurrection without a (negative) change in his character, it would be Jon. I do think that when Jon returns to his body he's going to be more resolute and determined but I don't see him going all "Un"

Agreed.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

The Un-state also seems to depend on how long a person has been dead.. Cat was dead for three days, hence the severe effect.. Beric was dead for only minutes or hours each time, but to him it happened multiple times, and thus the effects accumulated.

Perhaps it will be Jons ability to warg into Ghost that will prevent all the Un-effects.. as he is still present, in some form

[UnmaskedLurker]

I am onboard with your theory, UnmaskedLurker...

Thanks . . . I think.

[UnmaskedLurker]

No I get that ghost will keep him alive and the whole man wolf man from Mel thing. Just don't think it will be a crazy long period of time, but who knows. My thing is the body won't die, cause that leads to UnJon, not really a fan of Uncharacters. UnCat, UnJon, UnGregor, unbelievable. Kind of takes things over shark. Now metaphorical or symbolic rebirth, yeah totally. You know Dany didn't die in the fire or the Pit, but they gave way to a symbolic rebirth. Jon was assumed dead once before till he returned from the Wildlings.

While I am not completely convinced of how long Jon is in Ghost, I am quite convinced that you are correct that Jon does not become UnJon. GRRM has said that he is most interested in stories about inner conflict. Jon's inner conflict becomes basically irrelevant if he becomes UnJon. It just cannot happen. But his body can be in a "coma" for a while--Bran was. I also have already stated that I suspect he will be brought back in some sort of unique magical event along the lines of Dany and the dragons--so I think we are more or less agreeing--EXCEPT regarding how long Jon will be in Ghost. While I agree it probably cannot be months, I think it has to be long enough for Ghost to do something important in terms of Jon gathering information (probably about the Others).

[Jerry Drake]

The Un-state also seems to depend on how long a person has been dead.. Cat was dead for three days, hence the severe effect.. Beric was dead for only minutes or hours each time, but to him it happened multiple times, and thus the effects accumulated.

Perhaps it will be Jons ability to warg into Ghost that will prevent all the Un-effects.. as he is still present, in some form

I more think that it has to do with personality. Catelyn is the most hateful character in the book, I found, even more than Cersei. Cersei is vain and drunk with power but look at what Catelyn has done so far, while she was alive. The way she treated Jon, the way she arrested Tyrion in a "Shoot first, ask questions later" fashion. Death certainly doesn't do much to brighten up your outlook on life, but what she has done after resurrection is a natural progression for me. I can't remember if any of her actions weren't motivated by hate. Now that she's dead she can't manage (or can't be bothered with) masking her true intentions with the smokescreen of Family (Duty, Honor) values.

[Ygrain]

I more think that it has to do with personality. Catelyn is the most hateful character in the book, I found, even more than Cersei. Cersei is vain and drunk with power but look at what Catelyn has done so far, while she was alive. The way she treated Jon, the way she arrested Tyrion in a "Shoot first, ask questions later" fashion. Death certainly doesn't do much to brighten up your outlook on life, but what she has done after resurrection is a natural progression for me. I can't remember if any of her actions weren't motivated by hate. Now that she's dead she can't manage (or can't be bothered with) masking her true intentions with the smokescreen of Family (Duty, Honor) values.

I believe you are misreading Catelyn (at least when she was still alive).

[BearQueen87]

I more think that it has to do with personality. Catelyn is the most hateful character in the book, I found, even more than Cersei. Cersei is vain and drunk with power but look at what Catelyn has done so far, while she was alive. The way she treated Jon, the way she arrested Tyrion in a "Shoot first, ask questions later" fashion. Death certainly doesn't do much to brighten up your outlook on life, but what she has done after resurrection is a natural progression for me. I can't remember if any of her actions weren't motivated by hate. Now that she's dead she can't manage (or can't be bothered with) masking her true intentions with the smokescreen of Family (Duty, Honor) values.

I totally agree with Ygrain, I think you might want to re-read Cat. The idea that everything Cat does is motivated by hate is pretty incorrect. And, she doesn't treat Jon with hatred. It's more like indifference. There is one (very understandable) instance of what we might call cruelty but that was while she was sitting by the bedside of a son that everyone said would never wake. In other regards she more or less just avoided Jon. She was never hateful or spiteful towards him to his face. All her motivations are about her family and protecting her children. She makes mistakes--even the biggest Cat fans will tell you that. But so does everyone else in the series. But saying that her only motivation is some sort of sheer hatred is wrong.

[Jerry Drake]

I believe you are misreading Catelyn (at least when she was still alive).

I don't think I am, but hey, tastes and perceptions differ, if you can point me to a view that portrays her differently, I'll check it out gladly

[Consigliere]

I don't think I am, but hey, tastes and perceptions differ, if you can point me to a view that portrays her differently, I'll check it out gladly

The Catelyn reread might be worth checking out. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/115387-family-duty-honor-the-catelyn-re-read-project/

[Ghost's Shadow]

While I am not completely convinced of how long Jon is in Ghost, I am quite convinced that you are correct that Jon does not become UnJon. GRRM has said that he is most interested in stories about inner conflict. Jon's inner conflict becomes basically irrelevant if he becomes UnJon. It just cannot happen. But his body can be in a "coma" for a while--Bran was. I also have already stated that I suspect he will be brought back in some sort of unique magical event along the lines of Dany and the dragons--so I think we are more or less agreeing--EXCEPT regarding how long Jon will be in Ghost. While I agree it probably cannot be months, I think it has to be long enough for Ghost to do something important in terms of Jon gathering information (probably about the Others).

I have no problem with Jon being in Ghost for a while, but to travel to the high North (where else?) he'd have to be in Ghost for a LONG time. Ghost would be moving swifter than the rangers, but even then it would take a long while for Ghost to be anywhere near the Heart of Winter, if that's where it is thought Ghost will go. And will he then need to keep Jon inside until he gets back to Castle Black? That's just too long.

Look at how long the ranging and back again took, and to where they only got to go. There's not books enough for that, to wait for the direwolf to get all the way up there.

There's a much, much simpler answer in figuring out which character is going to be learning about the Others (and can, as we've previously seen already) communicate with Jon: Bran.

I think most of us can see that Jon won't become UnJon, that his story doesn't make sense, that he can't become some uncaring resurrected person at the point he can start learning about who his parents are, because then all the conflict would simply be gone. That just can't be. And that also gives him a few chapters to mope about things, while the Wall might come - literally or figuratively - falling down around him. That and a chapter or two where he needs to heal, is already a large part of the next book for Jon's story line, potentially. If the Wall falls down, retreating somewhere safe (will Stannis/North have WF?) will be in order, and there he could also go finish his crypt dream (Vermax dragon? :lol: ) if he still needs to do that.

Bran needs to have a storyline. Learning about the Others is his storyline. We already know that since he's in the cave, and not Jon.

It would be great for Jon himself to gather the North to his plight (what he set Stannis out to do), save WF from the Boltons and kill both Ramsay and Roose himself - because they deserve that and he deserves to do it, go learn about the Others himself by travelling in Ghost, help Hardhome himself, help all the other Wildlings himself, kill ALL Stark enemies himself, all people who have previously hurt anyone he cares about,... and whatever else you can insert here. Oh, save the world from the Others.

Now, we all know he won't be doing all that much of this, and not completely alone if he does, because there's other characters around who need to have a storyline as well.

Bran is and remains my most logical conclusion for the Others storyline until the time he can tell e.g. a Jon about what he's found out, for a very simple reason: he's gone beyond the Wall to learn about them, and his teacher is sitting right next to him. Not to mention Bran has already seen the Heart of Winter.

[sj4iy]

...I don't know how anyone could call Catelyn the most hateful character in the book when we have such a wealth of horrible people to choose from. She dislikes Jon and is jealous of the way Ned loves his mother, but that doesn't make her "hateful"...it simply makes her human. How would anyone else feel if their new husband came home from the war with a bastard son while you sat there worrying about ever seeing him again while you carried and gave birth to his legitimate child? I don't think anyone would have been pleased with that.

Her problem isn't that she's hateful at all...she's way too short-sighted to recognize the consequences of her actions and a bad judge of character. But that pretty much puts her in with about 98% of the characters in these books.

And Jon is my favorite character, so there's no bias there.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I more think that it has to do with personality. Catelyn is the most hateful character in the book, I found, even more than Cersei. Cersei is vain and drunk with power but look at what Catelyn has done so far, while she was alive. The way she treated Jon, the way she arrested Tyrion in a "Shoot first, ask questions later" fashion. Death certainly doesn't do much to brighten up your outlook on life, but what she has done after resurrection is a natural progression for me. I can't remember if any of her actions weren't motivated by hate. Now that she's dead she can't manage (or can't be bothered with) masking her true intentions with the smokescreen of Family (Duty, Honor) values.

Was freeing Jaime to rescue Sansa and Arya done for reasons of hate?

I would say that she was more motivated by the urge to protect her family... to protect those she loved and cared about.. The ways she tried to do so, however, were the problem..

[Jerry Drake]

Was freeing Jaime to rescue Sansa and Arya done for reasons of hate?

I would say that she was more motivated by the urge to protect her family... to protect those she loved and cared about.. The ways she tried to do so, however, were the problem..

You're right that wasn't motivated by hate, but as sj4iy said by shortsightedness and a belief that her goals and desires trump those of the entire war effort. I may be biased against her that was supremely selfish thing to do.

[Ygrain]

You're right that wasn't motivated by hate, but as sj4iy said by shortsightedness and a belief that her goals and desires trump those of the entire war effort. I may be biased against her that was supremely selfish thing to do.

Robb acknowledged that he should have traded Sansa for Jaime right away, though.