R+L=J v.119

[MtnLion]

Robb acknowledged that he should have traded Sansa for Jaime right away, though.

He should at least take a finger or thumb of Jaime's right hand before he does, though. :devil:

[UnmaskedLurker]

I have no problem with Jon being in Ghost for a while, but to travel to the high North (where else?) he'd have to be in Ghost for a LONG time. Ghost would be moving swifter than the rangers, but even then it would take a long while for Ghost to be anywhere near the Heart of Winter, if that's where it is thought Ghost will go. And will he then need to keep Jon inside until he gets back to Castle Black? That's just too long.

Look at how long the ranging and back again took, and to where they only got to go. There's not books enough for that, to wait for the direwolf to get all the way up there.

There's a much, much simpler answer in figuring out which character is going to be learning about the Others (and can, as we've previously seen already) communicate with Jon: Bran.

I think most of us can see that Jon won't become UnJon, that his story doesn't make sense, that he can't become some uncaring resurrected person at the point he can start learning about who his parents are, because then all the conflict would simply be gone. That just can't be. And that also gives him a few chapters to mope about things, while the Wall might come - literally or figuratively - falling down around him. That and a chapter or two where he needs to heal, is already a large part of the next book for Jon's story line, potentially. If the Wall falls down, retreating somewhere safe (will Stannis/North have WF?) will be in order, and there he could also go finish his crypt dream (Vermax dragon? :lol: ) if he still needs to do that.

Bran needs to have a storyline. Learning about the Others is his storyline. We already know that since he's in the cave, and not Jon.

It would be great for Jon himself to gather the North to his plight (what he set Stannis out to do), save WF from the Boltons and kill both Ramsay and Roose himself - because they deserve that and he deserves to do it, go learn about the Others himself by travelling in Ghost, help Hardhome himself, help all the other Wildlings himself, kill ALL Stark enemies himself, all people who have previously hurt anyone he cares about,... and whatever else you can insert here. Oh, save the world from the Others.

Now, we all know he won't be doing all that much of this, and not completely alone if he does, because there's other characters around who need to have a storyline as well.

Bran is and remains my most logical conclusion for the Others storyline until the time he can tell e.g. a Jon about what he's found out, for a very simple reason: he's gone beyond the Wall to learn about them, and his teacher is sitting right next to him. Not to mention Bran has already seen the Heart of Winter.

You make quite valid points, but here is my question about Bran being the one to find out about the Others. Do weirwoods grow in the Land of Always Winter? Wouldn't permafrost make that impossible? Is Bran going to be in a bird that just keeps circling the Others picking up information--or a bird just sitting on a rock listening to or watching the Others? The point about Bran needing a story line is persuasive. But please explain a plausible way in which that works. A wolf hiding in the area seems more plausible, but perhaps a bird works too. Just looking for thoughts from others who have thought through the possibilities.

[Consigliere]

You make quite valid points, but here is my question about Bran being the one to find out about the Others. Do weirwoods grow in the Land of Always Winter? Wouldn't permafrost make that impossible? Is Bran going to be in a bird that just keeps circling the Others picking up information--or a bird just sitting on a rock listening to or watching the Others? The point about Bran needing a story line is persuasive. But please explain a plausible way in which that works. A wolf hiding in the area seems more plausible, but perhaps a bird works too. Just looking for thoughts from others who have thought through the possibilities.

I don't think Bran will be restricted to Weirwoods.

“The singers carved eyes into their heart trees to awaken them, and those are the first eyes a new greenseer learns to use … but in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves.”

[Black Crow]

The big problem with giving Bran the job of looking into the Land of Always Winter and learning of the history of the Others and who knows what else is that such an approach only works for relatively short passages, cf. Maester Luwin's history lesson and Old Nan's story of the long night. Even allowing for interruptions and interjections they amounted to just a couple of pages and gave us very little of substance. GRRM really doesn't do the extended Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner which this would require Bran to see and relay to Jon or anyone else. This is going to require an interactive POV running over a number of chapters.

[Alia of the knife]

On the issue of Cat, I have to say I'm not much of a fan either, though I certainly don't hate her.

As with all the characters, she is nuanced and in that "grey" area. She does love her children to be sure as any normal mother would, and that includes Cersei, but there is an unforgiving element to Cat that I don't wonder if it isn't reflected by her new identity just as we see Cersei quite literally morphing into Robert.

She does treat Jon badly, and where I might understand this in the context of a modern relationship where people have the option to choose their partners based upon love, and the child might be percieved as a living, breathing sign of the betrayal of such love, this was not the case of Ned and Cat.

When Ned brought Jon home, she herself acknoweledged that they had parted as strangers and she barely knew him, much less loved him. That love grew over time. She also had a very realistic view of the behaviors of men, not minding the infideltiy so much, or even that he begat a bastard, expecting him to provide for it, but it was the bringing him home and living at WF for all the world to see, that bothered her.

And then there is Arya, and while Cat should not be soley blamed for Aryas self-perception as others contributed to that as well, still, Arya had the perception that Cat thought less of her because she wasn't perfect like Sansa, which is one reason I suspect she will grow to be even more beautiful than both Cat and Sansa, though she will likely find it annoying and "stupid."

Many women of this time who by the time they married their chosen husband would find that he had not just one bastard, but perhaps more than one. Even the reviled Richard III had several bastards before he married his wife Anne, and the one was raised alongside her own children, and she supposedly acted as much a mother to it as she did her own son. :dunno:

Holding ones partner accountable for any slight is one thing, but I cannot reconcile being cruel to a child for any reason, though I suspect that Jon and Cat will have some sort of coming to terms at some point.

[RGBeyondAsshai]

I don't think Bran will be restricted to Weirwoods.

“The singers carved eyes into their heart trees to awaken them, and those are the first eyes a new greenseer learns to use … but in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves.”

I don't either. I mean, physically it looks like he might not be getting out of that cave again (which is kind of sad because at least Bloodraven had a chance to live a full life before it happened to him), but imo he'll be able to see everywhere and everywhen, and he'll be able to communicate with Jon the way he did in Jon's dream. And we can't forget about Hodor's role-whatever it may be :)

[Greymoon]

...I don't know how anyone could call Catelyn the most hateful character in the book when we have such a wealth of horrible people to choose from. She dislikes Jon and is jealous of the way Ned loves his mother, but that doesn't make her "hateful"...it simply makes her human. How would anyone else feel if their new husband came home from the war with a bastard son while you sat there worrying about ever seeing him again while you carried and gave birth to his legitimate child? I don't think anyone would have been pleased with that.

Her problem isn't that she's hateful at all...she's way too short-sighted to recognize the consequences of her actions and a bad judge of character. But that pretty much puts her in with about 98% of the characters in these books.

And Jon is my favorite character, so there's no bias there.

:agree: completely.

Some forum dwellers also seem to think that it's impossible to like both Jon and Catelyn. Catelyn wasn't ever my favorite, that title went to Arya and Jon, but, I did like her a lot, and still find she's one of the best written female characters in the books. She has something of the archetypal mother, and while she's far from perfect and rather shortsighted, most of her mistakes are made out of love for her family.

And I don't begrudge her her treatment of Jon. It's not fair, but it's an understandable reaction. It's not like she goes out of her way to make his life miserable. The one time she's truly horrible, is when Bran is lying on his death bed. Again, in context, an understandable reaction, although hateful and completely unfair.

[RGBeyondAsshai]

I love so many of the characters in the books, good and bad, but I have to admit I've always had a problem with Cat. She's clever politically, loves her family, definitely has leadership potential but the loathing she displays for Jon (a loathing that never changes, despite loving and knowing her husband as an honorable man and watching Jon's wonderful relationship with her children over the years) and a few of her more questionable actions and beliefs have definitely gotten under my skin.

Saying that--the story wouldn't have been as good if she hadn't made all those bad decisions.

-Ned wouldn't have agreed to be the Hand (she pressured him into going and into accepting the Sansa/Joffrey match)

-Jaime wouldn't have been given to Brienne (and that is a great storyline)

-Bran wouldn't have gone on his trek North with his mom around (arguably one of the most important journeys for what's coming next-especially-I think-for Jon)

[Greymoon]

The big problem with giving Bran the job of looking into the Land of Always Winter and learning of the history of the Others and who knows what else is that such an approach only works for relatively short passages, cf. Maester Luwin's history lesson and Old Nan's story of the long night. Even allowing for interruptions and interjections they amounted to just a couple of pages and gave us very little of substance. GRRM really doesn't do the extended Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner which this would require Bran to see and relay to Jon or anyone else. This is going to require an interactive POV running over a number of chapters.

And Jon is bound to have an out-of body experience. He might be in Ghost for a time, but he could also just be out there like Varamyr, and need Bran's help to return or..something. Being out there Jon would become part of everything. Including the weir-wood net.

To me, greenseers and skinchangers are not fundamentally different. The greatest difference, imo, is that the skinchangers are ultimately bound to the world of the living, and the greenseers are, intimately connected to death. It's no hazard, that both Jojen Reed and Brandon Stark had near death experiences before their gift was revealed to them.

What happened to Varamyr, is imo, the sort of out of body experiences that Bran is learning to control. Without training and without a physical anchor, the violence of the experience has led to Varamyr's consciousness being split and becoming part of the matter.

Seeing what Bloodraven has become, I believe it's not a stretch to think that greenseers eventually suffer the same fate as Varamyr, with the main difference being that their consciousness and sense of self is slow to erode. A greenseer will not suffer a brutal 'split', and will learn to control out of body experiences, so that they may return to the physical world anytime. Though eventually, even their physical body changes to become part of the...cave? weir-net?

Anyway, it's possible I think, that all skinchangers have the actual potential to become greenseers. What they need is power and, mostly training -- the near death experience imo, unlocks their power and represents the first step toward another state of consciousness. I'm not certain GRRM will go down the greenseer road for Jon as well as Bran -- but, it's pretty obvious imo, that their paths are set to cross again.

All in all, I think there is about a 50/50 chance that Jon, not Bran will be thrown into a time loop. Bran has training, Jon doesn't. He's not even really in touch with his inner warg yet... So yeah...It'd be his 'Jon Messiah' moment, his 'Revelation'. Every messiah that ever existed had these spiritual moments, right? it would fit with the 'resurrection' theme and AA.

...in case you're not convinced (and I don't mind, really)...If Jon wargs Ghost, but Ghost is killed...what happens then? Varamyr, an experienced skinchanger failed at finding an anchor once the one he'd chosen died. Why should Jon have it any easier??...or is that the moment where he reaches out to Viserion? :) that's also a possibility I suppose... maybe Victarion's horn can help for a power boost.

I honestly don't expect we'll have many chapters where Jon is unconscious though. One, two maybe at the most. GRRM's been known to leave some PoV aside for a while, and he has a lot of ground to cover for WoW, so I wouldn't be surprised if we got a 'Ghost Jon' chapter right at the beginning, and a witness his return in the next, half way through the book.

[Black Crow]

One bark for yes, two barks for no is terribly limiting, especially as Ghost is the strong silent type.

[Mithras]

What happened to Varamyr, is imo, the sort of out of body experiences that Bran is learning to control. Without training and without a physical anchor, the violence of the experience has led to Varamyr's consciousness being split and becoming part of the matter.

Varamyr was steadily dissipating into the nature as the woodwitch and Leaf told so. But as a skinchanger, he was able to look for a host to contain his soul. Until he found his One-eye, he lost some part of his consciousness.

[Greymoon]

He should at least take a finger or thumb of Jaime's right hand before he does, though. :devil:

Robb totally lost sight of the end goal. His first goal was to save his father, and get his sisters back. Along the way it became northern independence, dominion over the riverlands, and keeping his lords happy...and Jeyne....has there ever been a meeker girl? At least Ygritte had spirit.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

One bark for yes, two barks for no is terribly limiting, especially as Ghost is the strong silent type.

Wiggle the tail once for yes, twice for no :)

[Greymoon]

Varamyr was steadily dissipating into the nature as the woodwitch and Leaf told so. But as a skinchanger, he was able to look for a host to contain his soul. Until he found his One-eye, he lost some part of his consciousness.

I don't remember that part -- but, then the point remains, right? Jon can have an out of body experience, and greenseers are not fundamentally different from skinchangers. What chapter was that in?

Bran is well placed to help Jon, in any case.

[Greymoon]

One bark for yes, two barks for no is terribly limiting, especially as Ghost is the strong silent type.

Wiggle the tail once for yes, twice for no :)

Do you guys reckon, Jon will forget how to speak, once he returns to his body? Someone pointed out, that returning from a near death, or having a gift boost required a sacrifice.

Bran lost his legs.

Arya's gift was boosted when she lost her sight.

.... ?

[Black Crow]

I don't remember that part -- but, then the point remains, right? Jon can have an out of body experience, and greenseers are not fundamentally different from skinchangers. What chapter was that in?

ADwD prologue

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Do you guys reckon, Jon will forget how to speak, once he returns to his body? Someone pointed out, that returning from a near death, or having a gift boost required a sacrifice.

Bran lost his legs.

Arya's gift was boosted when she lost her sight.

.... ?

Arya's sight returned, though... and her gift remained the same after that..

I haven't really thought about Jon losing the ability to speak (I had been thinking more about "the longer you remain in an animal, the more your mind becomes animal-like", and how that would work out when Jon's conscious returns to his own body), but currently, no, I don't think that Jon will lose his ability to speak...

Bran has been in Summer for quite some long periods of time, hasn't he? I seem to recall something of two days (I'm not sure about it though). And he hasn't lost the ability to speak...

[Greymoon]

ADwD prologue

That's the info about Varamyr from Varamyr's PoV. But Mithras mentioned something about Leaf? I'm re-reading the prologue now, and I see that I misremembered or misunderstood.

"true death came suddenly". I didn't understand that as Varamyr managing to take control of One-Eye again. Must have missed that part where he's running with the wolves, again.

Anyway, I still don't think he takes control, at all. It's just that their bond is so strong that some of Varamyr's consciousness remained in One Eye while Varamyr himself, died. I guess, it's about the same. Varamyr still has that out-of body experience, so it is a possibility for Jon, especially since he's not trained. And especially if Ghost gets killed in the aftermath of Jon's stabbing....

EDIT: Spelling

Thanks, as well ;)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Jon returns to his body and he starts to walk around in four legs and barks... please, george, please :lol:

[Greymoon]

Arya's sight returned, though... and her gift remained the same after that..

I haven't really thought about Jon losing the ability to speak (I had been thinking more about "the longer you remain in an animal, the more your mind becomes animal-like", and how that would work out when Jon's conscious returns to his own body), but currently, no, I don't think that Jon will lose his ability to speak...

Bran has been in Summer for quite some long periods of time, hasn't he? I seem to recall something of two days (I'm not sure about it though). And he hasn't lost the ability to speak...

But Summer can bark. Ghost is mute....

Meera is watching Bran like a hawk, stopping him from 'loosing' himself...while Jon might be stored along the salted fish in the cold chamber under the wall....but, yeah... it's all up to GRRM anyway. :)