Do you support the Greens or Blacks? Why?

[mediterraneo]

If I was strong and isolated enough to make an autonomous decision, I would buy time.
Wait and try to stay out of the civil war for as long as I could.
Nobody is pure and clean there, it is a fight for power, not for right.

On a personal, ethical preference, I believe that in the first days of the wars I would have supported the blacks, because the long time personal compromises Alicient made to be able to become the mother of a future king actually make me despise her, and she also was the first to kill, and to lie, in the very same room with the dead King.
She was preparing for the king's death since time.

But if I had any political responsibilities, I'd not be so arrogant to decide where risk my House's future on such an irrelevant thing as percieved right and justice. I would be fully aware of not having even half of the complete picture to decide from.
Stay out, gather information, strenght and weath, and keep them hidden and separated, but at hand.
Don't get burned to the ground by dragons. Help your neighbours to survive and to hide if they want to, gathering favors is not bad.
Maybe don't even try to fake an "I always supported you" case with the winner, in the endgame.
If the thing went bloody but short, you can answwer: "I didn't have the time". If it was as long and bloody as it ended up being, any unspent House willing to accept and enforce the winner's claim will be welcome in the new world order.

[Wmarshal]

That in itself makes little sense. Aemon had only one child, Rhaenys, as far as we know, and thus Aemon's heir - would he have become king - would have undoubtedly been Rhaenys, at least as long as he did not remarry.

Jaehaerys over Aerea is not yet an issue at this point, I think, as Jaehaerys/Aenys' party was effectively rebelling against Maegor the Usurper, and Alyssa and her supporter gravitated around Jaehaerys, Aenys' only surviving son, rather than around Aerea, who was first hiding with Rhaena, and then became effectively Maegor's hostage and heir.

Jaehaerys I only rose to the Iron Throne due to the civil war he and his supporters fought against Maegor. Without that the throne may very well have gone to Aerea - either through Maegor, who explicitly named her heir, or after Aegon's death, should he have beaten Maegor and succeeded to the Iron Throne.

Confirming Rhaenys as Jaehaerys' heir would have been no controversial decision in itself, I think, especially not if this 'a daughter comes before an uncle' thing was actually predominant in Andal culture (which I actually doubt, as there were pretty much no Queen Regnants in any of the Andal kingdoms besides the Reach).

We simply don't enough about this whole thing. Perhaps there were long standing tensions between Aemon and Baelon because Alyssa - their elder sister - had been married to Baelon instead of Aemon, and Alyssa was pissed that she/her line did not get the Iron Throne?

The Second Quarrel clearly shows that this was a problematic decision, and I'm pretty sure not only Alysanne and the Velaryons were pissed about this... I imagine Jaehaerys - being always a ruler looking for consensus - felt that a Queen Regnant would have been too much at this point - or rather complicate things for the whole Realm. It is clear that Jaehaerys was trying to extent peace and prosperity for his people for decades to come.

Things only get really problematic when Jaehaerys lived another decade and outlived Baelon as well as Aemon. Had Jaehaerys named Rhaenys in 92, he could have groomed her to rule for another decade, making her effectively a very good ruler, and she and Corlys would have had a two heirs of their own by then.

I don't see how their rebellion figures in, he did not win by right of conquest, Maegor died in his castle, likely by suicide. He just took the the throne. I wonder why Rhaena allowed her daughters rights walked over, but it probably had something to do with her wanting Maegor died really badly.

it kind of is, the lannister monarchy shows.

I don't see, the only conflict we know of the time of Jaeherys was that between him and his wife. F&B may shine some light, but nothing seems to show Alyssa was power driven.

Probably because of the issue of his own claim and the husbands of his brother's daughters. Baelon and Viserys seemed to be common leveled men, the only wild card is Daemon, but liked him anyway. There were lesser claims about.

[Wmarshal]

That 'arguable' is the problem here. I blame the Targs for this bullshit because of how inconsistent they were with the laws and their successions. Yeah, Aegon was Aenys heir you're right, but keep in mind that Aenys was a very weak-willed ruler who pretty much just did what he was told, most other Targs were way more willful and inconsiderate of what others considered ironclad rules.

If we followed by what the king says rule, then that really doesn't matter. Now mind you, Maegor clearly stole the throne, no man can deny, and Jaeherys took it with no real precedent. This is the issue of using precedent instead of actual laws, precedent can be changed ignored or forced to the extreme.

[Lord Varys]

Jaehaerys was proclaimed king by his supporters - Alyssa, Lord Robar, and possibly others - before Maegor's death. Besides the fact that Aerea and Rhalla were by that time in Maegor's hands and thus not exactly good figureheads for an anti-Maegor movement. Not to mention that they were seven-year-old girls by that point, whereas Jaehaerys was a fourteen-year-old boy.

Alyssa, Robar, and Jaehaerys may have been aware of the fact that Maegor's cruelty and misrule actually threatened the Targaryen rule in general, as I'm pretty sure that not all rebels fighting against Maegor were fighting to restore another Targaryen (Aerea or Jaehaerys) to the Iron Throne.

Jaehaerys was the eldest child of Aenys left, he was male, and old enough that there would only be a short regency, always a time of uncertainty and potential unrest (even if the Queen Dowager and her new husband shouldered the burden). Not to mention that Jaehaerys' character, his potential to become an extraordinary man and king, may have actually already been apparent at that time, prompting Alyssa and Rhaena to declare for him, rather than pushing the claims of Rhaena's daughters.

After a sufficient number of Lords had declared for Jaehaerys, it would have been difficult for him to not ascend the Iron Throne after Maegor's end.

Jaehaerys ascending the Iron Throne over Aerea and Rhalla could have had something to do with his decision to pass Rhaenys over, but I don't think that this is the case. He would have been aware of the fact that he came to the Iron Throne due to extraordinary circumstances, and nothing suggests that Aemon would have handed the Iron Throne to Baelon or Viserys, had he outlived Jaehaerys. Since we virtually know nothing about Alyssa Targaryen, we can't know what her thoughts were in this whole thing, but the fact that she, the eldest surviving child of Jaehaerys, was not married to the eldest surviving son, Aemon, could be hint that she was not exactly happy with that development.

And certainly Robar/Alyssa - if they were still alive in 92 AC - and Jocelyn/Boremund were pissed by the fact that Rhaenys was passed over, as the whole point in the Aemon-Jocelyn match (which was most likely brokered by Alyssa and Robar) was that the Baratheon/Velaryon-Targaryens would continue the royal line, not Baelon and Alyssa's children.

[Jaak]

Jaehaerys was the eldest child of Aenys left, he was male, and old enough that there would only be a short regency, always a time of uncertainty and potential unrest (even if the Queen Dowager and her new husband shouldered the burden). Not to mention that Jaehaerys' character, his potential to become an extraordinary man and king, may have actually already been apparent at that time, prompting Alyssa and Rhaena to declare for him, rather than pushing the claims of Rhaena's daughters.

After a sufficient number of Lords had declared for Jaehaerys, it would have been difficult for him to not ascend the Iron Throne after Maegor's end.

Right. But he could have handled Aerea´s claims by marrying Aerea rather than Alysanne. Then the rights of their children could not be challenged by any better claim.

He would have been aware of the fact that he came to the Iron Throne due to extraordinary circumstances, and nothing suggests that Aemon would have handed the Iron Throne to Baelon or Viserys, had he outlived Jaehaerys. Since we virtually know nothing about Alyssa Targaryen, we can't know what her thoughts were in this whole thing, but the fact that she, the eldest surviving child of Jaehaerys, was not married to the eldest surviving son, Aemon, could be hint that she was not exactly happy with that development.

And certainly Robar/Alyssa - if they were still alive in 92 AC - and Jocelyn/Boremund were pissed by the fact that Rhaenys was passed over, as the whole point in the Aemon-Jocelyn match (which was most likely brokered by Alyssa and Robar) was that the Baratheon/Velaryon-Targaryens would continue the royal line, not Baelon and Alyssa's children.

Alternative is, of course, the main disadvantage of incest. No in-laws. Aemon got a natural constituency in Baratheons, which is why he was matched to Jocelyn over Alyssa. This left two younger sons who were denied alliances: Baelon got Alyssa, and Vaemond was packed off to Citadel without a dragon or a wife.

[Lord Varys]

I imagine that the Jaehaerys-Alysanne relationship evolved even before the whoe claim-stuff became important, and may have grown stronger during while they went underground.

And as I've said earlier, if Rhaena approved of Jaehaerys' ascension, no harm was done by the fact that her girls had been passed over. The fact that the nine lesser claimants were passed over with ease by the Great Council along with the fact that we don't even know their names, and from which houses they were, strongly suggests that no one ever thought that Aerea/Rhalla or their sons/daughters should have been queens/kings.

Vaegon the Dragonless was born rather late. Jaehaerys and Alysanne had a bunch of other son - their firstborn child, Aegon, Aeryn, Valerion, and Gaemon. Those sons all did not reach adulthood, but this does not necessarily mean that all of them died in the cradle but around the age of 10, or even in their early teens.

[Jaak]

I imagine that the Jaehaerys-Alysanne relationship evolved even before the whoe claim-stuff became important, and may have grown stronger during while they went underground.

And as I've said earlier, if Rhaena approved of Jaehaerys' ascension, no harm was done by the fact that her girls had been passed over. The fact that the nine lesser claimants were passed over with ease by the Great Council along with the fact that we don't even know their names, and from which houses they were, strongly suggests that no one ever thought that Aerea/Rhalla or their sons/daughters should have been queens/kings.

Maegor expressly did.

Jaehaerys married Alysanne several years after his accession, having had the time to consolidate his position as teenage King. If Rhaena was disappointed when he married Alysanne, was she in a position to lead a successful rebellion?

[LordQorgyle]

After reading the world book i continue to support the greens.my favorite characters of the dance arePrince Daeron and Criston Cole

[Lord Varys]

I guess the fact that Maegor named Aerea did not actually help the cause of Rhaena's daughters...

Yes, Jaehaerys could have married Aerea or Rhalla instead of Alysanne, but the fact that he did not does not mean that he should have, as nothing suggests that anyone wanted Aerea or Rhalla to succeed Maegor.

And I'm pretty sure Rhaena would have had no chance to stage a rebellion in her daughter's name against Jaehaerys, as pretty much all the Lords had shortly before that declared for Jaehaerys, including she herself, when she delivered Blackfyre to him. Why the hell would anyone follow a woman who first effectively anoints her brother as her king by giving him the sword of the Conqueror.

If Rhaena had wanted her daughters to inherit, she should not have declared for Jaehaerys or helped him to ascend the Iron Throne.

[Gaston de Foix]

quick question: did Viserys ask his sons (all three) to swear fealty to their older sister while alive? If so, wouldn't all three sons be oathbreakers?

[LordQorgyle]

I think he disnt

[Lord Varys]

Nothing like that is mentioned, but it is pretty clear that all of Alicent's children would have honored and recognized Rhaenyra as Princess of Dragonstone and Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne, as she was declared and styled that way. And I'm pretty sure Viserys did hammer the fact home when talking to his sons that their sister would once sit on the Iron Throne, and that they would have to obey her.

Ser Otto most certainly did swear the oath of obeisance to Rhaenyra.

[Lion of the West]

quick question: did Viserys ask his sons (all three) to swear fealty to their older sister while alive? If so, wouldn't all three sons be oathbreakers?

It seems to me that Viserys once, before his children with Alicent were born, made lots of landed knights and lords swear to support Rhaenyra's claim on the throne. But then after he married Alicent and their children were born he didn't bother to make them swear new oaths, even though decades past since the last one and many people who had sworn it were dead when Viserys died.

[Gaston de Foix]

It seems to me that Viserys once, before his children with Alicent were born, made lots of landed knights and lords swear to support Rhaenyra's claim on the throne. But then after he married Alicent and their children were born he didn't bother to make them swear new oaths, even though decades past since the last one and many people who had sworn it were dead when Viserys died.

except that if their royal father had commanded it, and they had sworn an oath before all the realm, then they would be oathbreakers. Viserys did his daughter few favours by fathering more sons, and by failing to recognize that too many dragons are as dangerous as too few.

[Wmarshal]

Nothing like that is mentioned, but it is pretty clear that all of Alicent's children would have honored and recognized Rhaenyra as Princess of Dragonstone and Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne, as she was declared and styled that way. And I'm pretty sure Viserys did hammer the fact home when talking to his sons that their sister would once sit on the Iron Throne, and that they would have to obey her.

Ser Otto most certainly did swear the oath of obeisance to Rhaenyra.

When was that? Otto sure the idiot, but Alicent and kids went strong their claim.

[Lord Varys]

Otto would have sworn the oath in 105 AC, along with all the others. He was Hand then, and one of the architects of the whole thing, surely he would have been one of the first to profess his unwavering loyalty to the Princess of Dragonstone.

Rhaenyra later considers her half-brothers as oathbreakers, possibly suggesting that her siblings had to to swear allegiance to her when she came of age and took over as Princess of Dragonstone. But that is speculation.

We should also not go with 'many lords had already died who swore the oath in 105'. Otto did not, Grover Tully - the would-be traitor - also was not dead yet, and the only Lord who is confirmed to have died is Boremund Baratheon, and Lord Lyman Lannister was also already dead.

But I guess a lot of the Lords declaring for Rhaenyra in 129 AC were not necessarily of the old guard, but their sons who actually remembered the oaths their fathers swore.

My guess is that most of the Lords and knights swearing the oath in 105 came from the south, from the regions surrounding KL (i.e. the Crownlands, the Riverlands, the Stormlands, and the Reach). From the West, the Vale, and the North would have been fewer people there, as the journey would have been longer (but the Arryns would have backed Rhaenyra, anyway, so that was not as necessary).

[Lion of the West]

except that if their royal father had commanded it, and they had sworn an oath before all the realm, then they would be oathbreakers. Viserys did his daughter few favours by fathering more sons, and by failing to recognize that too many dragons are as dangerous as too few.

If I understand you, I kind of agree with you, although from another position having just a single heir was also kind of risky for House Targaryen.

[Jaak]

And I'm pretty sure Rhaena would have had no chance to stage a rebellion in her daughter's name against Jaehaerys, as pretty much all the Lords had shortly before that declared for Jaehaerys, including she herself, when she delivered Blackfyre to him. Why the hell would anyone follow a woman who first effectively anoints her brother as her king by giving him the sword of the Conqueror.

If Rhaena had wanted her daughters to inherit, she should not have declared for Jaehaerys or helped him to ascend the Iron Throne.

She was in a hot spot, right? If she stayed with Maegor and lost anyway, Jaehaerys would become king. If she defected to Jaehaerys, who had already declared for throne, and Jaehaerys won, Jaehaerys would also become king.

What was Rhaena´s reward for defection?

[Lord Varys]

Well, I guess she may have feared that Maegor would kill her and her girls if she stayed...? She and Elinor Costayne were the only wives left alive when Rhaena fled (we know that, because Maegor executed Tyanna with Blackfyre). I don't think Rhaena had any problem whatsoever with Jaehaerys becoming king, and had also no interest to get anything in return for joining him with Blackfyre and Dreamfyre.

And I do not doubt that Maegor had killed Rhaena and her daughters before he killed himself. Jaehaerys may sit on the Iron Throne, but he would not see his elder sister and nieces again...

[Gaston de Foix]

Well, I guess she may have feared that Maegor would kill her and her girls if she stayed...? She and Elinor Costayne were the only wives left alive when Rhaena fled (we know that, because Maegor executed Tyanna with Blackfyre). I don't think Rhaena had any problem whatsoever with Jaehaerys becoming king, and had also no interest to get anything in return for joining him with Blackfyre and Dreamfyre.

And I do not doubt that Maegor had killed Rhaena and her daughters before he killed himself. Jaehaerys may sit on the Iron Throne, but he would not see his elder sister and nieces again...

I think her reason for defection was to undermine Maegor and strengthen Jaehaerys at the same time. If his own wife abandoned Maegor, the realm would see that he was finiished.