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teemo

Do you support the Greens or Blacks? Why?

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Eh, the way the Hightowers went about crowning Aegon was totally indefensible. They had a decade and more to encourage Viserys to change the succession. Instead they decided to be sneaky, underhanded, and wrong. Their actions sparked the Dance.

I disliked Alicent after reading TPatQ but post-TWOIAF, she is officially my least favorite character in the entire series, prequels, and supplementary material. Wasn't she the Old King's mistress "nursemaid" after Alysanne died? She was like a worse Margaery Tyrell, grasping for power and doing anything she could to keep it.

Ah fair enough. I quite like her. I think the Hightowers did what they had to do to ensure the legitimate succession.

Well I'm not at all convinced by the Blacks and any of these pro-Rhaenyra arguments. I would have been a Green/behind Aegon II 100% but it seems the Greens are in the minority here!

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Ah fair enough. I quite like her. I think the Hightowers did what they had to do to ensure the legitimate succession.

Well I'm not at all convinced by the Blacks and any of these pro-Rhaenyra arguments. I would have been a Green/behind Aegon II 100% but it seems the Greens are in the minority here!

Rhanyra is a woman denied power in part because she's a woman, although that was far from the only reason, it's natural a lot of people will automatically take her side regardless of whether she was right or not.

Nymeria named her Martell daughter over her younger Dayne son, and got that to stick.

This was Dorne. And the claim to Sunspear really came from Mors Martell.

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This was Dorne. And the claim to Sunspear really came from Mors Martell.

Yes - to Sunspear. Not to the bulk of Dorne, which was her own conquest.

Targaryens, unlike Nymeria, came with spouses available from their own family and retinue. They actually had the better claim to bring their own law to Westeros...

Grand Maester Gawen, the first Grand Maester attested, was summarily found to be a traitor when he pointed out that law supported Aegon. So he is a notorious traitor.

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Rhanyra is a woman denied power in part because she's a woman, although that was far from the only reason, it's natural a lot of people will automatically take her side regardless of whether she was right or not.

I acknowledge Rhaenyra was an objectively horrible person who cared two figs about the Smallfolk and was married to a monster.

That doesn't mean I think Aegon was King save by treason.

Albeit, let's all take a step back and acknowledge monarchy is inherently stupid and there's no "right" way to choose a person which still relies on your father being ruler.

It's hard to care about the Blacks, really, after Blood and Cheese and murdering thousands of Smallfolk.

It's hard to care about the Greens when they're a bunch of thieves and oathbreakers.

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Albeit, let's all take a step back and acknowledge monarchy is inherently stupid and there's no "right" way to choose a person which still relies on your father being ruler.

It's hard to care about the Blacks, really, after Blood and Cheese and murdering thousands of Smallfolk.

It's hard to care about the Greens when they're a bunch of thieves and oathbreakers.

:cheers:

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Despite the fact Rhaenyra was becoming a bit like Cersei, I would support the Blacks,Viserys named her heir, if the green side didn't accept it, they should have called a new great council to see what would be better. I remember in the beginning Aegon didn't even want to be king, he said: Rhaenyra is the heir, when they first told to him Viserys had died.


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I acknowledge Rhaenyra was an objectively horrible person who cared two figs about the Smallfolk and was married to a monster.

Wait, what? Rhaenyra was a perfectly decent person before her in-laws tried to steal her inheritance, resulting in the death of several of her children and an extremely stressful time for Rhaenyra. She ends up being paranoid but, well, they really were after her.

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the greens... due to house lannister siding with Aegon II and because of the first men and andal law's of succession which states a son comes first to inherit before the daughter, a daughter before an uncle.aunt or cousin.

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Not sure when Rhaenyra (or the Blacks) 'killed thousands of smallfolk'. She became overly protective of her sons and forbid Joffrey to ride his dragon only because, well, they all got themselves killed while riding a dragon.



Her bad decisions only harmed herself/her close environment rather than the general public.


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The Iron Throne rejecting Rhaenyra is just a case of those recording history trying to paint her as the usurper.

As for having no right ahead of her half-brothers? Her own father recognised her as his heir. Misogyny isn't a good reason to say she had no right to it. She was the first born and her father's chosen heir.

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Sons come ahead of daughters in the succession. Her father doesn't just get to override that and insist on his daughter being heir.



The Master of Laws who supported Aegon II was nicknamed Ironrod, I doubt he got that nickname by being flimsy on his interpretation on law. He even went to his death insisting that a son has to come before a daughter.


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Sons come ahead of daughters in the succession. Her father doesn't just get to override that and insist on his daughter being heir.

The Master of Laws who supported Aegon II was nicknamed Ironrod, I doubt he got that nickname by being flimsy on his interpretation on law. He even went to his death insisting that a son has to come before a daughter.

Sons coming before a daughter is down to the Andal laws of succession. But given that none of us are Andals, using that law to justify Aegon II is a bit shallow to me.

Plus out of the two Rhaenyra was the one schooled in ruling, whereas Aegon II was everything the Greens accused Rhaenyra of being - a wanton prince who was a whore monger with little to suggest he was going to be a capable ruler.

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Sons coming before a daughter is down to the Andal laws of succession. But given that none of is are Andals, using that law to justify Aegon II is a bit shallow to me.

Plus out of the two Rhaenys was the one schooled in ruling, whereas Aegon II was everything the Greens accused Rhaenyra of being - a wanton prince who was a whore monger with little to suggest he was going to be a capable ruler.

But monarchy isn't about who is best for the job. It's about who is next in line. Aegon was rightfully next in line - it's his father's fault that he never tried to train him for the job because he instead insisted on keeping his daughter as heir.

Fair enough if people think Rhaenyra was right, I'm just saying from my point of view Aegon was right. I don't think everyone is going to agree for one side or the other but for me the Greens were totally in the right to insist on Aegon's succession and Rhaenyra has blood on her hands for challenging that.

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Sons come ahead of daughters in the succession. Her father doesn't just get to override that and insist on his daughter being heir.

And daughter comes before her uncle. Her grandfather doesn´t just get to override that and insist on his younger son being heir...

oops, Jaehaerys did precisely that.

If Jaehaerys was entitled to override the law to make Baelon and Viserys King, then Blacks could argue what it proves is that King can override inheritance law. And if Jaehaerys got to override the law and insist on Baelon being heir over Rhaenys then Viserys being King also got to override the law and insist on Rhaenyra being heir over Aegon.

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But monarchy isn't about who is best for the job. It's about who is next in line. Aegon was rightfully next in line - it's his father's fault that he never tried to train him for the job because he instead insisted on keeping his daughter as heir.

Fair enough if people think Rhaenyra was right, I'm just saying from my point of view Aegon was right. I don't think everyone is going to agree for one side or the other but for me the Greens were totally in the right to insist on Aegon's succession and Rhaenyra has blood on her hands for challenging that.

Because there was no reason to name Aegon as his heir. He'd already settled on an heir and several lords of the realm had sworn to uphold her rights as such. Otto knew before marrying his daughter to Viserys that this was the case, and was eventually dismissed for not accepting it.

Viserys true fault was being too naive in regards to the Hightowers. He may not have known or believed that Alicient had been involved with Daemon, but by the time of Daeron's birth it was obvious that Otto wanted a grandson for a king. At that point Viserys should have taken further steps to secure Rhaenyra's right, and never reappointed Otto as Hand.

Incidentally, monarchy isn't about a son following on from the father either. There are various complex succession laws, and the role of monarchy was viewed differently in different real world cultures. But by the token that monarchy isn't about who is best fit to rule, it's also not about a son getting what was once his father's. In respect of which is next in line, it was Rhaenyra. And Viserys himself should have spotted that the Hightowers would have used Andal law to try to gain the throne through Aegon, and taken steps to prevent it. He could have sought to change the law or come to private arrangements with lords - instead he chose to believe that his two families would somehow reconcile.

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The Iron Throne rejecting Rhaenyra is just a case of those recording history trying to paint her as the usurper.

As for having no right ahead of her half-brothers? Her own father recognised her as his heir. Misogyny isn't a good reason to say she had no right to it. She was the first born and her father's chosen heir.

And why would the historians do that?? Or are you forgetting that the Blacks eventually won - Rhaenyra's own son becomes the new King.

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And daughter comes before her uncle. Her grandfather doesn´t just get to override that and insist on his younger son being heir...

oops, Jaehaerys did precisely that.

For me, the key difference is he later held a Great Council to confirm the succession. And also, interpretation works both ways. Sure, people could interpret it as the King picks his heir but others could interpret Jaehaerys decision to choose his younger son ahead of his niece as being a precedent for a male Targaryen coming ahead of a female in the succession.

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Viserys true fault was being too naive in regards to the Hightowers. He may not have known or believed that Alicient had been involved with Daemon, but by the time of Daeron's birth it was obvious that Otto wanted a grandson for a king. At that point Viserys should have taken further steps to secure Rhaenyra's right, and never reappointed Otto as Hand.

...

Viserys himself should have spotted that the Hightowers would have used Andal law to try to gain the throne through Aegon, and taken steps to prevent it. He could have sought to change the law or come to private arrangements with lords - instead he chose to believe that his two families would somehow reconcile.

Well we can find some agreement here. I can't agree that Rhaenyra was the true heir, but if Viserys really wanted her to smoothly succeed to the throne he definitely should have kept the Hightowers away from the circles of power. He could have ensured his inner circle were firmly pro-Rhaenyra and prevented the Hightowers from getting their early advantages by keeping his death secret and then crowning Aegon.

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