The black sheep of Stark siblings

[Light a wight tonight]

The Old Kings of the North were also calm, calculating and politically minded, kinda like Sansa....

The Old Kings are a mix of both Sansa and Arya imo.

Arya's certainly is capable of planning, as in the killing of the insurance man. As she gets a better grasp of the greater world her scope will widen. She's currently 9 years old; give her time to mature.

[The Wolves]

The Old Kings of the North were also calm, calculating and politically minded, kinda like Sansa....

The Old Kings are a mix of both Sansa and Arya imo.

Sorry but how did you come to the idea that the Kings of Winter were political minded?

Cause they don't seem that way they seem cold, ruthless, unforgiving, hard, etc..... if they were in any way political minded I think the south would have had more interactions with them before the Targaryens.

[Headless Wolf]

Rickon. The only Stark with a black wolf

[Voice]

Sorry but how did you come to the idea that the Kings of Winter were political minded?

Cause they don't seem that way they seem cold, ruthless, unforgiving, hard, etc..... if they were in any way political minded I think the south would have had more interactions with them before the Targaryens.

Well, the World Book confirms they became Kings in the North because they conquered the other kingdoms in the North. Bran and Ned reflect on the cold, hard Kings of old as well... And, you'd have a hard time being King if you weren't politically minded, in my opinion, like Baelor the Blessed, or Robert Baratheon.

[Dicer]

The Old Kings of the North were also calm, calculating and politically minded, kinda like Sansa...

When has Sansa been calm, calculating and politically minded?

As for the black sheep (or wolf) of the family, I would go with Sansa. She is the most distant of all the siblings and GRRM created her specifically because all the Stark siblings were getting along and he wanted an exception. She also choses the Lannisters over her family, going against her family values ('Family, duty, honor' and 'The Pack survives') and betrays her family for selfish reasons. She tends to favour southern values, while her siblings are more attuned to the North. She is the only sibling without a Direwolf, the only one with a POV we have not seen warging and she clearly stands out as different to the other Starks in values and upbringing. If she survives, I see her staying in the south.

[DireWolfSpirit]

^^

@Dicer can I quote that for a different thread

I have? (Sansa = Only living Stark without a DireWolf)

I think it's a interesting POV that should be debated.

[WhitewolfStark]

I think this is actually it. Ned seems the least like the historical Starks we've seen, or at least, differs from how they're portrayed historically. And Robb was also a fair bit like him in terms of being honorable to a fault, marrying Jeyne and executing Karstark.

But the other Stark kids all seem to be, if not wild, then at least ruthless in their own ways. Even Sansa, to an extent, which I think will only grow in the next book.

Ned is more an honorary Arryn than a Stark thanks to Jon Arryn.

"As High as Honor" seems to be the words he attempted to live by.

But in the end I think looking for the "true Stark" is a search wrought with folly--for try as we might, they still all are Starks, no matter their differences. ;)

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

But in the end I think looking for the "true Stark" is a search wrought with folly--for try as we might, they still all are Starks, no matter their differences. ;)

:agree: The North remembers! The pack survives! :bowdown:

[Mithras]

In general,

Lannisters are proud and open handed.

Baratheons are stormy. They change between laughter and fury in the blink of an eye.

Tullys are devoted to family.

Boltons are cunning.

Manderlies are loyal and honorable (and fat).

etc.

How about archetypical Stark characteristics?

I think the only defining feature that is valid for both the ancient Starks and the current ones is this:

Starks act like a pack. So, the black wolf of the Starks must be the lone wolf.

[Pod The Impaler]

Sansa is the oddball among them. All the rest have a sort of primal aggressiveness to them.

Alternately, Jon might be, in that (R+L = J being assumed here), there's a touch of R's moody melancholy in him.

[Pod The Impaler]

Ned, the Starks are usually a wild bunch. Ned really was the one not fitting in.

I would not say so.

Ned was maybe not "wild" as in extroverted, but he was "wild" as in primal, instinctual, and for all his realism about war, clearly not shy about battle and bloodshed if necessary.

Ned was Lord Stark since his father and elder brother were murdered. Think the various bannermen, never challenged his dominance? What is notable here is that they tested Robb to see if he was a true Stark like Ned. That meant even though they probably knew he was an honourable, level-headed, and fair as a lord, they also did fear / respect him enough that they did not try to fuck with him. Ned was an alpha wolf, and unquestionably so.

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

Who was going to ICE Jorah Mormont for selling slaves? Jorah was a reigning Head of House, not some deserter from Night's Watch.

The Ned was going to do that. If that's not like Typical Stark, I don't know what is.

[Gregor Clegane's head]

Starks act like a pack. So, the black wolf of the Starks must be the lone wolf.

Benjen Stark.

There will be no major black sheep Stark.

[Pod The Impaler]

Who was going to ICE Jorah Mormont for selling slaves? Jorah was a reigning Head of House, not some deserter from Night's Watch.

The Ned was going to do that. If that's not like Typical Stark, I don't know what is.

Judge Ned, he is the law.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

The Old Kings of the North were also calm, calculating and politically minded, kinda like Sansa....

The Old Kings are a mix of both Sansa and Arya imo.

No it doesn't and there is no evidence of the old Kings dealing in 'politics'. They gave slavers to slaves to sacrifice to the heart tree, one burned their fleet in a fit of emotional rage, one decided to go on a sailing adventure and never returned, one took the time to go and raid Andalos to make sure they didn't come back to the north while southerners negotiated or fell. None of this seems like men of political mind. Calm and calculating in their violent retribution but not any real political acumen.

[Gregor Clegane's head]

No it doesn't and there is no evidence of the old Kings dealing in 'politics'. They gave slavers to slaves to sacrifice to the heart tree, one burned their fleet in a fit of emotional rage, one decided to go on a sailing adventure and never returned, one took the time to go and raid Andalos to make sure they didn't come back to the north while southerners negotiated or fell. None of this seems like men of political mind. Calm and calculating in their violent retribution but not any real political acumen.

We know little about the Kings truth be told but, we do know Rickard was VERY politically minded and forged one powerful alliance web. Nobody could of expected Aerys to do what he did.

I think to hold the Kingdom together for over 8000 years you need to have some pretty good politicians...

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

A Stark king known as Ice Eyes once captured Stepstone slavers in the wolfs den, humiliated them, tortured and killed them and strung their entrails on a heart tree.

Ned was going to execute Jorah, and rightly so (at the time Jorah had commited a massive crime). There is no 'typical' stark mentality. Not to mention the fact that Ned spent most of his youth in the Vale. He takes more after Jon Arryn than Rickard, who was far more pragmatic and ambitious than Ned (or so it would seem).

The current generation of Starks are more inspired by Jon Arryns sense of honor than Rickards. The only 'homegrown' Stark we ever see is Benjen. Who is authorative and defensive of his duty (ie with Jon about going north with him and Tyrion belittling the watch).

I was trying to convey that Ned may not be Theon Stark but he was no Baelor the Befuddled either. He was not war monger, but he knew very well how to deal with enemies and traitors.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

In general,

Lannisters are proud and open handed.

Baratheons are stormy. They change between laughter and fury in the blink of an eye.

Tullys are devoted to family.

Boltons are cunning.

Manderlies are loyal and honorable (and fat).

etc.

How about archetypical Stark characteristics?

I think the only defining feature that is valid for both the ancient Starks and the current ones is this:

Starks act like a pack. So, the black wolf of the Starks must be the lone wolf.

Never underestimate the Lann nature in the Lannisters. All double handed in some way. Whether its bribery, talented wordplay or just plain open deception in Cersei's case. That is their primary mode of power.

Starks are forthright. This is where the primary tension came from in the first book. The Lannisters never showed their hands, they prowled behind the scenes, they tied a knot until they could swing the noose. Ned was very honest, he didn't hold anything back really. He let everyone know what he was doing. Brandon shouted 'Come out and Die' apparently, going right up to Kings Landing looking for a fight. They exhibit this in other ways too. Rickard was ready to fight for himself, he didn't call an Umber to do his dirty work. He was going to live or die by his own sword. Ned swings the sword himself, he looks the man in the eye before he kills him. He thinks this is important. Cregan Stark went to Kings Landing, had trials and executions all in an afternoon and then went home. He didn't play around or think of any real fallout. He would kill the traitors because they were traitors. Theon Stark went to Andalos to knock on the front door of the Andals and start a fight so they knew never to cross him again. He then put their heads on spikes on the coasts as a reminder of their beating. That is forthright. Robb did the same when he went to the Westerlands. He would hit them where they lived and make a point. Starks take a direct approach to life. Arya and Sansa currently are not going on this path but I think Arya may come back to it from the sample we got.

[Miss Carnahan]

When has Sansa been calm, calculating and politically minded?

As for the black sheep (or wolf) of the family, I would go with Sansa. She is the most distant of all the siblings and GRRM created her specifically because all the Stark siblings were getting along and he wanted an exception. She also choses the Lannisters over her family, going against her family values ('Family, duty, honor' and 'The Pack survives') and betrays her family for selfish reasons. She tends to favour southern values, while her siblings are more attuned to the North. She is the only sibling without a Direwolf, the only one with a POV we have not seen warging and she clearly stands out as different to the other Starks in values and upbringing. If she survives, I see her staying in the south.

Even though she constantly thinks about wanting to go North, to Winterfell?

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

We know little about the Kings truth be told but, we do know Rickard was VERY politically minded and forged one powerful alliance web. Nobody could of expected Aerys to do what he did.

I think to hold the Kingdom together for over 8000 years you need to have some pretty good politicians...

Do we? We know he planned to marry into the Tullys. This was arranged by Hoster and himself. We know he sent Ned to be fostered with the childless Jon Arryn. Robert wanted to marry Lyanna, Rickard didn't seem to have plans for her. So we are looking at two familial alliances that is meant to show he is a political force? Rickard doesn't get anything for giving Ned to Jon to raise. Jon can use Ned against the North, what can the North use against Jon? Would the Tully's rally against Cat's sister? The alliance was not really sound on Rickards part without his trust in Jons good character. As essentially, house Arryn gets links to Riverrun and leverage over Winterfell and Storms End. Rickard gets Riverrun's promise of neutrality? I don't know. The tie between Robert and Lyanna, not Rickard's plan made the whole thing more sound. Everyone had something on someone else.