Brienne of Tarth has Targaryen blood.

[RumHam]

Sure, it's possible that Dunk was granted lands by the Targaryens. I still think he'd be considered too low on the nobility to marry one of the few available female Targaryens that could instead be used to forge alliances. But even if he was granted lands and married, we'd need to then assume that he abdicated lands and titles to serve in the Kingsguard.

Isn't it pretty much a lock that he was granted Pennytree and it reverted to the crown when he joined the Kingsguard?

[Lord Varys]

Whether the Crown would overrule Maekar's decision if he chose to marry Daella to Dunk we don't know yet. TMK established a first connection between Dunk/Egg and Bloodraven, and that seems to continue until Bloodraven calls the Great Council to ensure that Egg ascends the Iron Throne as Aegon V.

Not to mention that Egg's bookishness could also foreshadow a sort of closer relationship between him and Aerys I, should Egg ever spend a longer period of time at court throughout the reign of his uncle. Aerys seems to be a pretty awkward guy, but I guess he could tolerate/enjoy the presence of a nephew who might actually be interested in the same topics as he is.

Thus it is by no means a given that Aerys would oppose the Daella-Dunk match, if Maekar, Egg, and Bloodraven suggest it (or not speak against it).

And Dunk and Daella could, of course, always pull a Jaehaerys/Shaera on Maekar.

[Aemond's Eye]

Whether the Crown would overrule Maekar's decision if he chose to marry Daella to Dunk we don't know yet. TMK established a first connection between Dunk/Egg and Bloodraven, and that seems to continue until Bloodraven calls the Great Council to ensure that Egg ascends the Iron Throne as Aegon V.

Not to mention that Egg's bookishness could also foreshadow a sort of closer relationship between him and Aerys I, should Egg ever spend a longer period of time at court throughout the reign of his uncle. Aerys seems to be a pretty awkward guy, but I guess he could tolerate/enjoy the presence of a nephew who might actually be interested in the same topics as he is.

Thus it is by no means a given that Aerys would oppose the Daella-Dunk match, if Maekar, Egg, and Bloodraven suggest it (or not speak against it).

And Dunk and Daella could, of course, always pull a Jaehaerys/Shaera on Maekar.

Isn't it pretty much a lock that he was granted Pennytree and it reverted to the crown when he joined the Kingsguard?

It seems unlikely to me that he'd be granted Pennytree and a Targaryen marriage. It just seems too much of a boon for a baseborn knight from Flea Bottom. (Unless it turns out that Dunk himself comes from a noble family and doesn't know it. Or perhaps Dunk saves Maekar's life or the life of King Aerys.)

To me I think it's more likely that Dunk's child marries into the Tarth line, and that Daella's child therefore marries Dunk's. (Or that he perhaps sires a bastard somewhere down the line that enters the line, knowingly or unknowingly.)

I'm not saying it's ridiculous or anything. I just can't see it unfolding. I do see some possible scenarios unfolding where it might be possible. I just think it'd take something exceptional for it to not seem a bit 'too much'.

[Wmarshal]

I assumed a son of Egg's sisters married Dunk's daughter.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

It seems unlikely to me that he'd be granted Pennytree and a Targaryen marriage. It just seems too much of a boon for a baseborn knight from Flea Bottom. (Unless it turns out that Dunk himself comes from a noble family and doesn't know it. Or perhaps Dunk saves Maekar's life or the life of King Aerys.)

What about a baseborn knight from Flea Bottom being granted good lands and a lordship and being made Hand of the King?

[Aemond's Eye]

What about a baseborn knight from Flea Bottom being granted good lands and a lordship and being made Hand of the King?

Stannis is exceptional in this respect, in my opinion. Maekar strikes me as a similar character. But I'm not convinced that even Stannis would marry Davos to his daughter or niece. But one of Davos' sons or daughters to one of Stannis' grandchildren? Seems more likely.

But again, if Dunk were to safe Aerys' or Maekar's life? Then perhaps he would be granted Daella's hand in marriage. I'm not saying it's a stupid suggestion.

[Jehanne]

But I thought knights of the Kingsguard weren't allowed to marry.

I think it more likely that Dunk is maybe a low-born descendant of Aegon the Unworthy. Like Dunk's the child or grandchild of maybe one of his unaknowleged bastards.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

So... I think it's now time to speculate wildly about Brienne Joining Dany's queensguard and taming one of her dragons because I want this more than life

[Lord Varys]

Would Stannis not marry Shireen to Davos? I've thought about that myself, and I'm pretty sure he would do it, if the need arose, and Davos' wife died. After all, Stannis has already effectively made Davos a high lord of the Realm ('the Lord of the Rainwood' most likely will rule over half the Stormlands should Stannis ever sit the Iron Throne) as well as his Hand, and he could be sure that Davos would fight for Shireen just as stalwart as he had fought for Stannis...

And one should keep in mind that Stannis has promised Davos that 'we'll made new lords, Lord Davos'. If Stannis prevails, many things will change...

[Aemond's Eye]

Would Stannis not marry Shireen to Davos? I've thought about that myself, and I'm pretty sure he would do it, if the need arose, and Davos' wife died. After all, Stannis has already effectively made Davos a high lord of the Realm ('the Lord of the Rainwood' most likely will rule over half the Stormlands should Stannis ever sit the Iron Throne) as well as his Hand, and he could be sure that Davos would fight for Shireen just as stalwart as he had fought for Stannis...

And one should keep in mind that Stannis has promised Davos that 'we'll made new lords, Lord Davos'. If Stannis prevails, many things will change...

I don't think he would marry Davos to Shireen. Assuming all of Davos' sons have lived he might have married one of them to Shireen matrilineally. But it's a bit different as she's his heir.

If he had a male heir then he may marry one of Davos' sons to her into House Seaworth. But I think Maekar would marry one of Daella's children to one of Dunk's. I'm just not yet convinced he'd marry her to Dunk.

I do concede you make some good points though, mate.

[Lord Varys]

I don't think it is likely that Stannis would marry Shireen to Davos, unless there was a very good reason for it. Say, Davos losing his wife, and Stannis getting very sick, expecting his death, and yet not capable of finding a suitable match for Shireen due to the political circumstances. If somebody would continue to uphold Shireen's claim - and care for her - it would be Davos.

However, that is a very unlikely scenario. But, hey, Devan Seaworth may really be suggested eventually as consort for Shireen.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

It's clear to me Dunk bedded at least three women and they were with child later.

Hodor, Brienne, Sandor and Gregor seem to be clear candidates of Dunk's heritage.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Ibbison,

continuing something else:

If I remember correctly, you stated that you do not consider Maekar a 'sentimental character'. Before TWoIaF I'd have seconded that, but his section clearly states that he had a great sentimental side in mourning for Baelor again each year, even after he had taken the Iron Throne.

Maekar is clearly a hard character, but he may have softer sides, too, and what we have seen of him in THK was nothing but his official face while he was angry. THK and TSS (Egg telling about him) indicate that he has an intellectual side as well, searching for meaning in life (the conversations with the High Septon, which, I assume, began, when Dyanna died prematurely).

If Maekar was mostly a harsh and unforgiving man he would never have allowed Egg to squire for Dunk. There is a pretty good chance that we'll get some sort of Stannis-Davos relationship in Maekar and Dunk, during Aerys' reign as well as during Maekar's own reign.

If that's the case, then I really can see Maekar marrying Daella to Dunk. I'd be very surprised if this guy would not surprise us.

Maekar didn't let Egg squire for Dunk out of sentimentality, IMO. He did it out of a bit of desperation. The result of the Trial of Seven (the disgrace of his sons and the death of his brother) temporarily shattered Maekar. At the end of THK, when Maekar and Dunk have their conversation, Maekar shows an introspective side. His sons are his legacy, and his two eldest have turned out bad - one is a coward, the other is an arrogant maniac. Maekar has come to the realization that something about the way he raised his children didn't work, that he is a failure as a parent, and he sees something in Dunk that might make a difference for Egg. Dunk also shows a great deal of courage by challenging Maekar on the issue of how his sons were raised. If Maekar hadn't been impressed by that, Egg's sentimental demands to squire for Dunk wouldn't have mattered.

But Maekar is still duty-driven. Everything we see about Maekar shows his commitment to duty. He insisted on a trial for Dunk to protect the honor and dignity of his family. He allows Egg to squire for Dunk because he has a duty to see that his sons are raised well, and he has begun to doubt his own ability to do so. In later years, when he is passed over for the handship in favor of a bastard, he spends his time sulking, not rebelling (just like Stannis). Part of his duty is advancing his family's position through favorable marriages. By the time Daella and Rhae are of a marriageable age, they are two of only three granddaughters of Daeron II available for marriage. They are precious resources, to be employed with care. Every house that was angling for a marriage alliance with the royal family would consider a Daella marriage to Dunk an affront, and the Targs would pay for that. Maekar would be failing in his duty to his family if he allowed Daella to marry a powerless hedge knight, not only by failing to help his house, but by actively hurting it. It is completely out of character for Maekar to allow such a marriage.

It would also be out of character for Dunk to accept it. Dunk isn't comfortable around highborns. Below the salt is just fine for him. In fact, he takes pride in his status as a hedge knight, seeing his position as a purer form of commitment to knightly ideals. Granted, he might change over time, but that might actually destroy what is special about him if it were to happen.

Lastly, a Daella/Dunk marriage would lessen the impact of the marriages of Egg and his sons, both in- and out-of-universe, particularly Duncan the Small's. Those marriages are famous for a reason - marriages for love rarely happen amongst the nobility, especially the royal family. When they are discussed in the histories, no mention of a precedent established by Daella is revealed. I find it all but impossible to accept that it could have happened and not be mentioned in conjunction with Egg and his sons.

Dunk and Daella is a fun crackpot ship, sure. But it can't be taken seriously. Too many low chance maybes and perhapses have to be allowed to become probablies and likelies, then strung together to make it work. Accepting it as true will allow errors to propagate through any analysis dependent on it, and will sidetrack us from the more likely cases.

[Lord Varys]

You just assert a lot of things there. I do not think that Dunk would marry Daella in the next year, but rather at the end point of a longer series of events eventually culminating in a marriage. For instance, what if Dunk first encounters Daella in a non-court setting in a similar fashion he first met Egg? That would overcome his awkwardness among the highborn.

Not to mention that he would have to overcome that problem anyway when hanging out with the royals at court/serving as a knight/Lord Commander of the Kingsguard (and eventually as Hand, if the Roleplaying Guide thing did not make that up).

I think the picture you draw of Maekar is grounded too strongly on the tiny image we have of the man yet. Sure, I cannot prove that yet, but if I could, there would be no need for a discussion. Maekar's conversation with Dunk is similar to the usual Stannis-Davos exchange, where Stannis rewards honest counsel (or blunt words). Maekar seems to be doing the same there, but if he was truly as pride/entitled as he seems to be, he would still never have accepted Dunk's suggestion, as he would have been unable to understand Dunk's reasoning. After all, for all we know Maekar was raised at court, know nothing else, and can hardly/not at all relate to the common man - and should thus not really assume that living with the smallfolk should make you a better man.

It also remains to be seen how Maekar later judges the man Egg becomes... Back in 209 AC he most certainly did not expect to become king himself, or that Egg would eventually succeed him. When he becomes king - does he want Egg to follow him? That's all a mystery.

Maekar's need to make alliances/find great matches for his children (especially his daughters) would only begin to arise after he became Prince of Dragonstone upon Aelor's death. Before that, Maekar's whole branch was essentially the branch of a younger son - and even then could Aerys I suddenly have decided in 219/220 to father a bunch of children on Aelinor.

We should also keep in mind that Daella is already betrothed to Egg, and thus not available as a match as long as this betrothal stands. And considering that Egg only married Betha Blackwood in 220 AC, he may actually remain betrothed to Daella for quite some time. Even if we assume that Egg will meet Betha first in 'The Village Hero', it may not yet be evident therein that these two will eventually fall in love and marry, that may be a later development (Betha may be much more drawn to Dunk originally, especially if we assume that Egg goes incognito as the 'bald boy', whereas Dunk will be big and manly). The fact that their wedding is only in 220 suggests that things were not exactly rushed...

Daella-Dunk could be not really an affront if nobody ever thought about such a match because people though Egg would marry Daella anyway, and thus did never tried to broker a match. The moment Egg dissolves his betrothal to Daella should be the moment Aerion decides that he will now claim her, as Maekar's only other unmarried son. As Daella was supposed to marry a brother, Maekar could hardly oppose such a match, especially nor from a dynastic point of view. He surely wants to continue his line, and Aerion is much more important there than Daella.

Which is why I've also suggested that the Daella-Dunk match may have also something to do with protecting Daella from Aerion/preventing Aerion from marrying her. Rhae, on the other hand, may very well be married into another house somewhere in the 210s.

[ambi76]

Not unlikely but utterly cheesy in my mind if Dunk actually took one of Egg's sisters as wife, or lover, whatever. I would much prefer Dunk had some fling with a Tarth lady.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

here's some reply points in somewhat random order.

*****

We actually get a pretty solid picture of Maekar's character in THK. He's one of the main players, and his actions are key plot drivers. And the events in THK are a point of change for him. He has seen the results of his previous attitudes and choices, and they have proven to be personally disastrous for him. Listening to what Dunk told him about his sons, and accepting the truth of it, was perhaps the hardest thing Maekar ever had to do. To his credit, he chooses to learn his lesson. That's not a tiny image. It's quite a bit of info. That's what I based my analysis on, although you are free to dispute my interpretations. Still, it's real text, not what ifs and maybes. He has some similarities to Stannis, but the two are in entirely different situations. I find attempts to draw too many parallels between them in order to attempt to predict their actions unprofitable. Comparison would be interesting, but not prediction.

*****

I propose a very simple sequence of events. Daella and Egg are already betrothed. Egg meets Betha on his travels. Before Daella and Egg can get married, a Blackfyre invasion begins to look likely, and House Tarth begins to waver in its loyalty to the crown. Aerys, Bloodraven, and Maekar all agree to break Daella and Egg's betrothal so Daella can marry into House Tarth and cement their loyalty to the throne. BFR3 occurs before a new match is arranged for Egg. While the court is occupied with the aftermath of the battle, Egg runs off and marries Betha. He wouldn't even have to dishonor himself by breaking his betrothal to do so. Simple, easy, and likely enough. Nothing out of character for anybody.

*****

TMK takes place in 212. Daella was born in 199. She's likely to be married in the next 5 years (213-218 or so.) Aerion is still in exile in Lys, from what we can tell, although he will return in time for BFR3. I don't think she has much to worry about from him, at least for the time being. And any Aerion intentions toward Daella are unsupported. The fact that Aerion disgraced himself and was forced to accept temporary exile leaves him in no position to demand anything.

*****

Given the Targ's penchant for incest, all branches of the house are likely to be considered important by the other lords of Westeros. With Aerys I seemingly uninterested in producing heirs, Rhaegel and his line were set to succeed, but his children's children would themselves look for matches with close relatives at times. Maekar's children and their descendents would be prime choices, and thus highly prized matches for other houses. All Targs are important to the rest of the kingdom. However the Daella-Egg betrothal was broken, skipping potential lordly suitors for Dunk would tick off quite a few houses.

[Lord Varys]

If you think Maekar did really accept what his two elder sons were in THK? I don't really think that sunk in really deep. He had hope both Daeron and Aerion would change - the latter in Lys. And the best sign in favor of Daeron/Aerion (and in disfavor of Egg) would be that both Daeron and Aerion were apparently Maekar's heirs at various points throughout his own reign.

And I'd not be surprised one bit if Maekar was eventually fonder of Aerion than of Daeron or Egg, because Aerion apparently knew how to woo his father, and he may actually have extinguished himself during the Third Rebellion - even if he did murder Haegon, as some people have suggested, Yandel also mentioned other deeds of Aerion's... Daeron remained a sot and a coward, and Egg may have developed in nuisance with him beginning to champion the cause of the smallfolk.

If Maekar had realized that they were lost causes this early, he surely would have taken precautions to sideline or disinherit them. A man like him could have gotten rid of them easily enough (Wall, Faith, permanent exile, etc.).

I'm also not sure we should assume that Aerion stayed in exile until shortly before the Third Rebellion. That's a possibility, but nothing in THK suggested that Aerion was supposed to be gone for (nearly) a whole decade. Everything TWoIaF indicated about Aerion - the puissant warrior thing, especially - suggested that he may play an important role, especially during the Third Rebellion, but perhaps also in other events.

Aerion's desire to castrate Egg may also be connected to the whole Daella thing. She was betrothed to Egg instead of Aerion, and it is pretty obvious that he is pissed that he is not getting a sister to marry.

I don't think we have to assume a secret marriage for Egg and Betha. Bloodraven would have approved of the Blackwood match, and Yandel explicitly states that no objections were raised back then, which should mean that all the royal family were essentially fine with it. The Blackwoods are pretty much as noble as the Daynes, the Penroses, or the Dondarrions - and Egg was still at the very end of the male line of succession.

If the Targaryens had been in need for to seal an alliance with a political marriage during the reign of Aerys I the Iron Throne could have offered Rhae, young Daenora, widowed Aelora (before she descended into madness), Aerion, and even Maekar or Bloodraven. I'm not inclined to believe that Egg's betrothal to Daella was broken out of political necessity.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

I don't think Maekar, as of the end of THK, has given up on Daeron and Aerion, but he has truly seen for the first time what they really are. He had been fooling himself up to that point. His final scene with Dunk reveals a man who has been forced to completely re-evaluate his view of the world, and he's struggling to deal with it. He blames himself for the result. He's lost confidence in his own parenting skills. That's why he's willing to let Egg go with Dunk. Still, Maekar is a determined man and will attempt to improve his two elder sons. I'm quite sure he never altered the succession. Once Maekar was crowned, I'm sure Daeron, then Aerion were his heirs until their respective deaths, just because that what the rules said. "Fondness" would have nothing to do with it. He would do all he could to prepare his sons, but after is death the duty of dealing with them and guiding them would fall to others.

Aerion didn't father a child until 232. He doesn't strike me as someone obsessed with marriage and family building.

Egg and Betha may not have eloped, but Egg "marrying for love" certainly implies that the choice of wife was his, not his father's, and somehow he made it stick. That's not usually how it works, unless the father is quite indulgent. Perhaps Egg persuaded his father. Perhaps he engaged in a bit of politicking, with support from Bloodraven. It is not said that he dishonored himself, though, so his betrothal to Daella would have already been broken for some reason. Again an atypical occurrence. Why would that happen?

BTW, the possibility of Dunk and Daella eloping can be safely discounted. Dunk was known as "Duncan the Tall" throughout his whole life. If he eloped with Daella, he would have been forced to change his epithet, as he would no longer be all that tall after his head was removed.

Targaryen princesses are valuable political pieces. In the time span from 213-218, Daella, if available, would be one of the most sought after brides in the kingdom - higher on the list than Rhae due to age, than Aelora due to the preference for maidens. Daelora's first child was born in 232 - Dealora might well have been younger than Daella or Rhae. And Dealla must have been available at some point, since her betrothal to Egg was broken. Any argument leaving Daella out of the political mix is weak and contrived.

Marriages for love are exceedingly rare amongst Westerosi lordly houses. Egg's marriage for love is famous kingdom-wide, his son Duncan's marriage even more so. Yet Duncan's bride claimed descent from "the long vanished kings of the First Men". Daella's marriage to a hedge knight from Flea Bottom would be more extreme than either of those examples, but we never hear about it. Why? And if it happened, why would the other marriages be remembered as being so exceptional?

I don't want want to beat this discussion into the ground. I just feel an obligation to respond to your arguments since you took the time to post them. I'm not sure we're getting anywhere.

[Lord Varys]

I don't think we are really discussing the topic in itself any longer, rather certain various topics surrounding the characters, so this actually still somewhat fun...

If Maekar had really realized what Aerion was - and if Aerion continued to prove his character throughout the 210s and 220s (which seems to be the case) - it would be not impossible/unlikely that Maekar would try to prevent his rise to the Iron Throne. Rules are rules insofar as the king accepts them, and there could have been plenty of ways to get rid of both Daeron and Aerion. But Maekar's section makes it clear that Maekar made apparently no such attempts, considering that the whole succession was the major issue for concern throughout his reign, which would have not been the case, if, say, Maekar had early on decided that neither Daeron nor Aerion would succeed him, and taken steps to marginalize or get rid of them entirely.

And, honestly, I don't thing Daeron would have been such a bad king. His bad traits only affected himself and his world view - assuming that he had surrounded himself with smart men (Bloodraven, Egg, Dunk) his reign could have been as good as Aerys' and Maekar's (and perhaps even less troublesome than Egg's, as Daeron most likely would not have intended to reform the Realm).

I really think we should not put too much on Maekar/Daeron/Aerion as they have been presented in THK. That was just a glimpse, and it would not surprise me one bit if Aerion - and not Egg - would be celebrated as hero after the Third Rebellion.

As to Egg/Betha: In their case 'marriage for love' may just mean that Egg chose his bride himself, stuck to his decision, and Maekar/Bloodraven/Aerys did not object. He may actually have remained formally betrothed to Daella until 220 AC, only dissolving the betrothal when he decided to marry Betha.

I did not mean to say that Dunk/Daella married in secret disguising their identity - Jaehaerys and Shaera most likely also did not, but commanded whichever septon they visited, to marry them. Daella and Dunk could have done the same.

Let's try such a series of events:

- Dunk/Egg and Aerion eventually return to Summerhall/court.

- Egg has already met Betha, and lost the taste for incestuous marriages, but upholds his betrothal anyways, for appearances sake.

- Dunk and Daella eventually meet each other and fall in love. Egg knows about that, and does not object.

- When Egg postpones the wedding again and again things start to get problematic. It becomes evident, that Aerion wants to marry Daella should Egg not go through with it, and it is evident that Maekar would allow this, as he is actually in favor of the incest-marriage policy and fears that the Targaryen blood has already become way too impure in the last decades.

- Dunk and Egg fear that Aerion would try to hurt/harm/eventually kill Daella after their marriage to punish her for her affair with/feelings for Dunk (and the avenge himself on Dunk). To prevent that, Egg arranges a secret wedding for the two, and gets Aerys/Bloodraven's permission for that. Maekar and Aerion have no choice but to accept what has happened.

We could even cut out the whole love/romance angle of the story, making the it a 'duty marriage' with the single purpose of saving Daella from Aerion.

And I really think Aerys/Maekar were not exactly in favor of political, non-incestuous marriages. We don't know yet if any other bride of Daeron's sons besides Aelinor had Targaryen blood, but I'd not be surprised if that was the case. House Arryn aside, Daeron chose rather minor houses as brides for his sons. But even if Daeron strayed from tradition, under Aerys I the old ways were renewed. Aelor and Aelora married each other, and Aerion eventually married Daenora.

And speaking about his marriage: He must have known that if he wanted to seize the Iron Throne eventually - which clearly would have been his goal after Maekar became king - he would better father heirs of his own, which is why I think he really wanted to marry. The fact that he apparently only married rather late could be, as I've already pointed out, that he wanted a Targaryen match and waited until he got one. Daenora does not seem to be alive in TMK, and could be born as late as 216 AC (if Alys was pregnant with her when Rhaegel died in 215). Then she would only be 16 in 232 when she gave birth to Maegor, which is why I guess she was born in 213-215 and married to Aerion around 231.

Finally, it seems that Egg's attempt to make marriage alliances with the great houses of Westeros was extraordinary for House Targaryen, suggesting that such attempts were not made often (or at all). Daeron II clearly honored a lot of lower houses with the matches he made for his sons and Elaena, but that does not mean he did choose houses that had no Targaryen blood.

[RumHam]

We could even cut out the whole love/romance angle of the story, making the it a 'duty marriage' with the single purpose of saving Daella from Aerion.

I don't think so because then why Dunk? Surely there are more suitable suitors for a princess if the only goal is to take her off the market.