Let us discuss King Viserys I

[The silver dragon]

Yet, it continued during Viserys's reign, and I doubt Jaehaerys's legacy would have continued for twenty-six years after his death without some good stewardship.

good stewardship does not mean his stewardship, aerys reign was also Prosperous,

[The silver dragon]

Viserys clearly did many things right, or else the realm wouldn't have been nearly as prosperous. In comparison, his mistakes seem rather few. The problem was, they were quite grave.

An uxorious man is bad enough. But an uxorious man who also listens to his daughter... A domestic situation that was moved into the field of politics, that was all.

for all you know all he did was sit on his ass all day and eat food, and judging by his girth this may been the case.

aerys reign was prosperous doesn't change the fact that he was a massive fuck up.

[Tyrell_like_Squirrel]

Viserys is an interesting character. I think like a lot of kings, his reign started off strong and ended pretty weakly. I don't think he's an awful king, and a lot of the criticisms people make of his character/reign, are made with the benefit of hindsight. We know how things were going to turn out, he didn't. That's not to say his mistakes aren't pretty big, but you can't blame the whole dance of the dragons on him alone.

I really want to read a whole novel, or series of novels, on the dance with dragons. Impossible I know, but a man can dream.

[The silver dragon]

Viserys is an interesting character. I think like a lot of kings, his reign started off strong and ended pretty weakly. I don't think he's an awful king, and a lot of the criticisms people make of his character/reign, are made with the benefit of hindsight. We know how things were going to turn out, he didn't. That's not to say his mistakes aren't pretty big, but you can't blame the whole dance of the dragons on him alone.

I really want to read a whole novel, or series of novels, on the dance with dragons. Impossible I know, but a man can dream.

the queen and the hand both hated daemon who was married to the heir both of whom are the designated regents , his grandchildren wanted too kill each other.

and each side has weapon's of mass destruction. if he did not see a immediate war coming after he died than he was ether blind or delusional.

[Fire Eater]

good stewardship does not mean his stewardship, aerys reign was also Prosperous,

Yet Viserys had different Hands, and he was not mad I recall.

[The silver dragon]

Yet Viserys had different Hands, and he was not mad I recall.

i would say he was fairly delusional. but that's not the point viserys could not do shit in politics, being out maneuvered by his own hand and wife. could not fight for shit.

and no where does it say that he personally helped in managing the realm?

if he was born in any other era, he would have been over thrown.

[Fire Eater]

i would say he was fairly delusional. but that's not the point viserys could not do shit in politics, being out maneuvered by his own hand and wife. could not fight for shit.

and no where does it say that he personally helped in managing the realm?

if he was born in any other era, he would have been over thrown.

He had the lords under his thumb it appears.

The problem with the last statement is that men would have needed a reason to rebel against him, and he didn't provide any.

No where does it say that he personally helped in managing the realm?

[Viserys] preferring to hold court in his solar

His health failing, Viserys left ever more of the governance of the realm to his Hand and small council.

By the second moon of the year, His Grace had lost all appetite and was ruling the realm from his bed . . . when he felt strong enough to rule at all.

You might want to actually do your HW next time before you make such statements. :) Those quotes indicate Viserys was active in governance.

[The silver dragon]

He had the lords under his thumb it appears.

The problem with the last statement is that men would have needed a reason to rebel against him, and he didn't provide any.

No where does it say that he personally helped in managing the realm?

[Viserys] preferring to hold court in his solar

His health failing, Viserys left ever more of the governance of the realm to his Hand and small council.

By the second moon of the year, His Grace had lost all appetite and was ruling the realm from his bed . . . when he felt strong enough to rule at all.

You might want to actually do your HW next time before you make such statements. :) Those quotes indicate Viserys was active in governance.

about as active as bobby b was.

[Fire Eater]

about as active as bobby b was.

Except that clearly states Viserys wasn't very active until after he became bedridden and his health deteriorated, not before. That is what you ignore. Even when he was sick, he would discuss matters of state from his bed until he became worse.

[Mithras]

The peace and prosperity during his reign was mainly the legacy of Jaehaerys. He still had some of the Old King's statesmen at work.

It is easy to be a successor of Jaehaerys. I wonder how he would fare if he succeeded Aegon IV.

If he was an able king, he would not have to cut out the tongues of some Velaryons for speaking about "Strong bastards". Good kings do not need to make threats and when a good king makes a threat, nobody should dare to disobey him.

[Lord Varys]

Various things:

The Dance did not cause the eventual downfall of House Targaryen. In fact, if the dragons had multiplied the way they did during the reign of Viserys I, it would have inevitable that various branches of House Targaryen would have been dragonriders, sowing the seeds for a successful rebellion in the future.

Anath,

actually, it is not clear whether Viserys opposed Rhaenyra's marriage to Daemon when they finally did it, or whether he was merely pissed that both of them did not wait the proper time (they were supposed to mourn for their spouses), and that they did not ask his permission.

Viserys was clearly opposed to the Daemon-Rhaenyra match because he felt/thought Daemon was not the right husband for his daughter.

As to Viserys' own marriage to Alicent: The only political match that is mentioned is Laena, and this would have been an unpleasant match in any case, considering the age difference. Not to mention that by the time the king's remarriage was discussed, he had already named Rhaenyra his heir, which would eventually have caused a similar/the same trouble between Rhaenyra and Laena's children by Viserys.

It would have been better had Viserys not married, true, but can we really assume that Viserys (or anyone) had to know how things would turn out later? I don't think so. When you marry you do not think about whether your children and grandchildren will kill each after you are dead.

I'd also give Alicent the benefit of the doubt. I don't think she necessarily did not love Viserys at the beginning, or started the marriage with the intention to push Rhaenyra aside. Unless proven otherwise, I'll go with the assumption that Alicent and Viserys really loved each other for quite some time, and that Viserys still loved his wife until the very end, as he else would not have allowed her to rule him as much as she apparently did. If that's the case, then there is a huge difference there between Alicent/Viserys and Cersei/Robert.

Note that Rhaenyra actually spared Alicent's life, suggesting that she was aware of Alicent's earlier feelings as well as of Viserys' feelings until the end. If Alicent had been another Cersei, and if Rhaenyra had known Alicent's true heart (as Ned did know Cersei's heart), I'm pretty sure she had taken Alicent's head as she did take Otto's.

And as Fire Eater has pointed out, Viserys took an active hand in the governance of the Realm while he was still healthy. We cannot compare him to Robert in that regard.

Mithras,

Viserys was not 'King Tongue-cutter'. This was one incident, and he was entirely justified in that, as he has previously announced that anyone - even royals! - would loose their tongues if they repeated this tale. Laying the blame at his feet that people dared repeat the tale (and apparently thought they could get away with it) completely shifts responsibility. Vaemond Velaryon tried to steal Driftmark from Rhaenyra's (and Daemon's) children. He and his family had to be punished for that, especially since neither Corlys nor Rhaenys seemed to have any troubles with the rumors surrounding Laenor's sons.

After all - we don't know what went on behind the scenes on Driftmark. It is very likely that Laenor informed his parents about his intentions to never share the bed/never father a child on Rhaenyra when the marriage was first announced. Corlys and Rhaenys most certainly were aware of Laenor's preferences, and thus it is not unlikely that he told him that - while their son may one day sit as Prince Consort besides Rhaenyra - his blood would not sit on the Iron Throne after her death. Or that he did not even have to tell them, as they very much know he would not be inclined to share her bed.

If that was the arrangement, Corlys and Rhaenys would have to stomach that. And Rhaenyra and Daemon did what they could to amend this thing by betrothing Jace and Luke to Baela and Rhaena.

But to take this whole thing one step further:

What do you guys think could Viserys have done to nullify the chances for a war for succession/rebellion upon his death? Besides the usual 'He should not have remarried' thing? Recalling Ser Otto clearly was a grave mistake, but I'm not sure whether the crisis could have been averted if Otto had remained in Oldtown. Sure, if Rhaenyra or Daemon had served as Hand, her succession would have been ensured, but would it have been guaranteed that Oldtown and Casterly Rock would not rebel? Would it have guaranteed that Alicent, her children, and Ser Criston Cole would not try something else? Like, assassination attempts, an open and violent coup like Cersei, etc.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I think Viserys had the best of intentions, but there were just so many people involved to prevent everything on his own...

Settling the succession was a good idea, as was calling all the lords together and swear vows to Rhaenyra, and stating she wad his heir even after the birth of three sons.. the only problem wad that Viserys was convinced his actions would still have effect 24 years later. Had he repeated the vow swearing and such, say, when his health was starting to become less, the war could have gone quite differently. I'm not saying it could have been prevented, but still..

It would have been difficult, for him, to stand between the daughter he loved, and the wife that he loved, who couldn't stand each other. Love makes blind, yet Viserys clearly daw Alicents ambitions, and obviously believed he had acted well enough to stop those ambitions..

[Tyrell_like_Squirrel]

the queen and the hand both hated daemon who was married to the heir both of whom are the designated regents , his grandchildren wanted too kill each other.

and each side has weapon's of mass destruction. if he did not see a immediate war coming after he died than he was ether blind or delusional.

Well he was ill and bedridden for the last bit of his reign, so that part is probably true. I'm not saying he didn't help to create a really volatile situation, or that he couldn't have done more to prevent the outbreak of war. I just think its easy to sit and look back and say what should have happened compared to actually being in a situation.

There's a lot of similarities between the dance of the dragons and the civil war in England after the reign of Henry I. Henry was a fantastic king who kept peace, prosperity, and order during his reign. When his only legitimate son died, he tried to make his daughter Matilda heir. The lords ended up putting his nephew Stephen on the throne and there was about 15 years of chaos and warfare that resulted from that.

Even a strong and capable king like Henry was incapable of preventing massive civil war. The real fault lies with the lords who didn't respect his wishes, just like with Viserys and his daughter.

[Lord Varys]

TRP made it pretty clear that both the Blacks and the Greens took care to keep their continued enmity (and the true depth of their hatred) from Viserys. The best example is that feast where the whole Dragonstone gang attended, and things only escalated after Viserys' had retired to his chambers. That should be a pretty big hint that Viserys was not actually aware how tense the situation was. Sure, he knew that Alicent and Otto preferred Aegon on the Iron Throne, but I assume both also went to great lengths to assure that they would still uphold his decrees, else it makes really no sense that Otto was reappointed Hand.

We should also keep in mind that Viserys had a forgiving nature (shown again and again in his relationship with Daemon), and this could be a hint that he was simply not in his character (or very difficult for him) to imagine that anyone would try to kill his close kin.

[Mithras]

We should also keep in mind that Viserys had a forgiving nature (shown again and again in his relationship with Daemon), and this could be a hint that he was simply not in his character (or very difficult for him) to imagine that anyone would try to kill his close kin.

That is one of the things which made Tytos a terribly unfit Lord.

[Lord Varys]

So you think a king should, on occasion, execute his own brother because he has slighted him? Didn't you not just say in this very thread that Viserys went too far when he cut out the tongues of the Velaryons?

Tytos was forgiving to everyone, including obvious criminals, and did not even demand loans back. That is an entirely different situation. Viserys was forgiving towards his own family, not the whole world.

If Viserys had shared any of Tytos' characteristics, he would have survived no year on the Iron Throne, let alone 26.

[shockwave]

maybe Viserys should have abdicated when his health started to fail. That would ensure Rhaenyra gets crowned.

[Acnologia Targaryen]

Honestly it was just a shame Strong died in that fire too hell no that coup would have happened if he was still hand.

[The silver dragon]

So you think a king should, on occasion, execute his own brother because he has slighted him? Didn't you not just say in this very thread that Viserys went too far when he cut out the tongues of the Velaryons?

Tytos was forgiving to everyone, including obvious criminals, and did not even demand loans back. That is an entirely different situation. Viserys was forgiving towards his own family, not the whole world.

If Viserys had shared any of Tytos' characteristics, he would have survived no year on the Iron Throne, let alone 26.

tytos actually ruled the westerlands for a pretty long time, and he did not even have a shit load of dragon's as a sort of silent discouragement against rebellion.

he probably would have lasted just as long as viserys.

[Headless Wolf]

He destroyed all he had inherited from Jaehaerys with his idiocy and got all of his children, most of his grandchildren, and almost all the last living dragons killed