Let us discuss King Viserys I

[Lord Varys]

Tytos was Gerold's third son, and more than ill-quipped to rule. It seems that the West did not really know him when he came into his lordship, which is why the people and lords laughed with him for a time (and he apparently was quite a funny fellow).

House Lannister apparently also stuck to Tytos, and neither Jason nor a cousin tried to depose him. The Reynes and Tarbecks eventually tried to topple the Lannisters, though.

Viserys was nothing like Tytos. He was the eldest son and heir of Prince Baelon, and effectively second in line to the Iron Throne since 92 AC. He was well-liked, respected, and charismatic guy, which is why he won at the Great Council. A man like Tytos would not have utterly failed there. No one would have wanted such a man as his king.

Baelon surely would have prepared Viserys for his role as king, or to rule whatever castle Jaehaerys I granted Baelon and Alyssa before he named Baelon Prince of Dragonstone.

[The silver dragon]

Tytos was Gerold's third son, and more than ill-quipped to rule. It seems that the West did not really know him when he came into his lordship, which is why the people and lords laughed with him for a time (and he apparently was quite a funny fellow).

House Lannister apparently also stuck to Tytos, and neither Jason nor a cousin tried to depose him. The Reynes and Tarbecks eventually tried to topple the Lannisters, though.

Viserys was nothing like Tytos. He was the eldest son and heir of Prince Baelon, and effectively second in line to the Iron Throne since 92 AC. He was well-liked, respected, and charismatic guy, which is why he won at the Great Council. A man like Tytos would not have utterly failed there. No one would have wanted such a man as his king.

Baelon surely would have prepared Viserys for his role as king, or to rule whatever castle Jaehaerys I granted Baelon and Alyssa before he named Baelon Prince of Dragonstone.

so basically Viserys was almost as shity as Tytos was, even though he had more Training in how to rule?

this comment just made Viserys seem even lamer if that was possible.

[Winterfell is Burning]

so basically Viserys was almost as shity as Tytos was, even though he had more Training in how to rule?

this comment just made Viserys seem even lamer if that was possible.

Yeah, he reminds me a lot of Tytos, although he was clearly stronger.

[The silver dragon]

Yeah, he reminds me a lot of Tytos, although he was clearly stronger.

:agree: i will give him that at least. he seemed to have more force of will than tytos... although that's not saying much.

[teemo]

He was an idiot, who was ultimately responsible for the death of most of his children and grandchildren, and for the death of the dragons, which ultimately caused the fall of House Targaryen.

All he had to do was either not name Rhaenyra as heir or not marry again, but no, he had to do both. And then hire again the man that pestered him to have one of his grandsons as heir. Just pathetic.

Exactly....and the IT knew what was up too; it killed him.

[Antler's Fury]

I've made my thoughts on this issue plain before, but I just realized that everyone is ignoring what was perhaps Viserys' biggest mistake of all: Viserys missed a golden opportunity to join Dorne into the realm by marrying Rhaenyra into House Martell. Just think of how many future wars could have been avoided. There would have been no Dance, because Aegon would have succeeded without incident. Daeron I and Aegon IV would never have been born, thus preventing their Dornish wars, and Aegon II's own descendents would have had no reason to fight Dorne.

That said, Viserys' biggest flaw was his hypocrisy. He married for love yet refused to allow Rhaenyra and Daemon to do the same. His ire at Daemon's marriage to Laena is perhaps the most inexplicable, considering that he refused to marry her himself, and that this match could further strengthen relations with House Velaryon, whose goodwill Viserys had repeatedly taken for granted. He was more than happy to use the male-only precedent to take the Iron Throne, but was unwilling to use it to determine his own succession. He wanted Alicent to bear the burdens of being his wife by having his children, but did not give them the inheritance rights that Alicent and Otto had very good reason to believe they were due.

His reinstatement of Otto Hightower as Hand was perhaps his most baffling decision, considering that Viserys himself had fired Otto precisely because Otto had insisted that Aegon ought to succeed instead of Rhaenyra. Did he seriously expect that Otto would back Rhaenyra over his own grandson? I also don't buy the argument that the blacks and greens were able to conceal their hatred for one another at court. Viserys was very much aware of the fact that the two factions hated one another. This was why he refused to marry Aegon to Rhaenyra (yet another way to resolve the succession problem that Viserys ignored). This was why he did not name Daemon or Rhaenyra as Hand (which could have prevented the Green coup, or at least resulted in a shorter war with less bloodshed), since that would put the two factions in close proximity to one another. This was why he separated the two factions after his sons fought with Rhaenyra's. Ultimately, Viserys was too stubborn for his own good, doing whatever pleased him regardless of other people's objections, and insisting that everyone else do whatever he wanted, again regardless of their objections. He refused to introspect or take into account the possibility that his decisions might have very negative consequences, or that people might actually refused to do as he wanted. He attempted to make peace between the two factions, but the reason he kept failing was because he didn't address the underlying cause of their dispute. Separating them, or making them kiss and make up after fighting, wasn't going to make their resentment of each other go away, and Viserys refused to see that, because to fully satisfy one side would require permanently alienating the other, something that Viserys refused to do.

[Lord Varys]

Antler's Fury,

I really think your assessment of Viserys is valid in many points, but I'd still not judge him so harshly.

Marriage for love:

Yes, Viserys married for love, and there are hints that from a dynastic point of view Alicent was essential nothing but a glorified paramour (not so from the POV of actual power and influence, though).

But would Daemon-Rhaenyra really have been love match? Yes, Rhaenyra was in love with Daemon, but did Daemon ever love Rhaenyra? Considering how their relationship ended, I very much doubt that. Viserys not giving Rhaenyra permission to marry his uncle could have to do more with his 'fatherly love' than with him going to great lengths to make her unhappy. And he clearly did prevent the Rhaenyra-Aegon match to keep the lines separate and to prevent Aegon from trying to claim the throne in Rhaenyra's name. This does not necessarily mean he was aware how much the factions hated each other.

Viserys strikes me as a man who could not truly see how dire the situation was and unwilling both factions were to get along with each other.

As to Rhaenyra and the Prince of Dorne:

I don't think the plan was to marry Rhaenyra off to Dorne rather to include Dorne into the Seven Kingdoms by making the Prince of Dorne the Prince Consort of the (future) Queen Regnant of Westeros. This suggestion came up when Rhaenyra came of age, and nothing suggests that Viserys ever considered changing the succession.

I'm also not sure if we can accuse him of hypocrisy in regards to the succession. He did not orchestrate his election in 101, nor did he want to make Rhaenyra his successor under any circumstances. He hoped that Aemma would give him a son. In fact, if Otto had not pushed him to alter the succession in 105 to effectively cut out Daemon from the succession, Aegon would have become his natural heir in 107.

[Mithras]

/snip

Agreed with all of it.

[Antler's Fury]

Antler's Fury,

I really think your assessment of Viserys is valid in many points, but I'd still not judge him so harshly.

Marriage for love:

Yes, Viserys married for love, and there are hints that from a dynastic point of view Alicent was essential nothing but a glorified paramour (not so from the POV of actual power and influence, though).

Then this was his mistake. Viserys wanted to have it both ways. He wanted to do the decent thing and marry Alicent, yet wanted to deny her children the inheritance rights that were rightfully theirs, (by legal precedents that Viserys himself had acknowledged as valid by becoming King,) essentially treating them as acknowledged royal bastards. If he didn't want her kids to inherit, he shouldn't have married her. It's that simple. Had he kept her as a mistress, as Aegon IV and Robert did, then Rhaenyra's place as heir would have been secure. The whole point of marriage from a political perspective is to give the wife and kids inheritance rights that could not be given to just any woman that the king wanted to have sex with. By marrying Alicent, Viserys was acknowledging her as more than just a sexual partner, and bestowing upon her and her children by him a special legal status that he tried his best to brush under the carpet, much to the realm's detriment.

But would Daemon-Rhaenyra really have been love match? Yes, Rhaenyra was in love with Daemon, but did Daemon ever love Rhaenyra? Considering how their relationship ended, I very much doubt that.

The point is that Viserys, who married as he wished following the death of his first wife, could hardly complain once Rhaenyra married as she wished following the death of her first husband. One might say that Rhaenyra and Daemon married too soon after the deaths of their respective spouses, but Viserys himself married Alicent barely a year after Aemma died. Given that Rhaenyra and Daemon apparently married about half a year after the deaths of Laena and Laenor, Viserys was basically quibbling about six months here.

And he clearly did prevent the Rhaenyra-Aegon match to keep the lines separate and to prevent Aegon from trying to claim the throne in Rhaenyra's name

.

A union between the two could have produced an heir that both sides could have accepted. Keeping the factions separate only encouraged war.

This does not necessarily mean he was aware how much the factions hated each other.

He knew the greens wanted the throne, he said as much when he refused the Aegon-Rhaenyra match. He went out of his way to keep the factions separate when the fought again and again. If he didn't foresee a succession crisis when he died, then he was either stupid or willfully blind.

Viserys strikes me as a man who could not truly see how dire the situation was and unwilling both factions were to get along with each other.

Indeed.

I don't think the plan was to marry Rhaenyra off to Dorne rather to include Dorne into the Seven Kingdoms by making the Prince of Dorne the Prince Consort of the (future) Queen Regnant of Westeros. This suggestion came up when Rhaenyra came of age, and nothing suggests that Viserys ever considered changing the succession.

The text doesn't specify, but considering that Viserys wanted Rhaenyra to be queen, you may be right. That said, it seems to me that Dorne would have been okay with Aegon II succeeding while Rhaenyra married the Prince of Dorne, given that this is essentially the deal that they ended up taking generations later.

I'm also not sure if we can accuse him of hypocrisy in regards to the succession. He did not orchestrate his election in 101,

He could have stood aside as Aemon did and let Laenor win. He didn't. I don't blame him for taking power this way; indeed, an election by great council gives the lords a voice in deciding who rules them, and thus gives the king that much more legitimacy. I'm blaming him for essentially betraying the lords who had elected him because he was male by insisting on a female heir when he had a male heir available.

nor did he want to make Rhaenyra his successor under any circumstances. He hoped that Aemma would give him a son.

...which is why he should have let Aegon be heir when Alicent did what Aemma couldn't do.

In fact, if Otto had not pushed him to alter the succession in 105 to effectively cut out Daemon from the succession, Aegon would have become his natural heir in 107.

This makes me wonder what Otto was doing. He didn't want Daemon to succeed, but Aemma was still alive, so why encourage Viserys to name Rhaenyra heir when Aemma could easily have given Viserys a son?

[Mithras]

About giving Rhaenyra to the Prince of Dorne.

Let us not forget that Rhaenyra would go with her dragon, which means they were going to be handing a dragon to Dorne, which would make the Martells a dragonlord House. I don't think that is a good idea.

[SeanF]

26 years of peace, prosperity, and efficient government shouldn't be dismissed as being of no account. There's even a rationale for the marriage to Alicent Hightower, given that Rhaenyra was his sole daughter, and she could easily have died in childbirth or by misadventure, as several of Jaehaerys' children did.

Once it was clear that Ser Otto and Alicent were fomenting trouble, he should probably have put them under arrest, perhaps even have executed them.

[Antler's Fury]

Let us not forget that Rhaenyra would go with her dragon, which means they were going to be handing a dragon to Dorne, which would make the Martells a dragonlord House. I don't think that is a good idea.

Only if Rhaenyra's descendents could ride her dragon, which is not necessarily true.

[The silver dragon]

Only if Rhaenyra's descendents could ride her dragon, which is not necessarily true.

if Rhaenyra bastards could, then chances are those decedents could as well.

[Antler's Fury]

if Rhaenyra bastards could, then chances are those decedents could as well.

They could ride different dragons, but they could not ride her dragon.

[Lord Varys]

Essentially the succession crisis was caused by Ser Otto in the years 103-105. His enmity with Daemon apparently motivated him to go to great lengths to ensure that this guy does not, under any possibly circumstances, inherit the Iron Throne. Considering Viserys' and Aemma's relative youth there was really no need to fear that Daemon would, in the end, get the Iron Throne, as Viserys/Aemma could eventually have a son, Viserys could remarry and have sons (which he did), Rhaenyra could marry and have sons who could inherit if Viserys had a long reign. Daemon could even have predeceased Viserys and Rhaenyra.

Considering that the Viserys-Alicent match cannot have come out of the blue in 106, as there are even rumors that Viserys had already an affair with Alicent while Aemma was still alive (possibly during her pregnancy), there is actually no rational reason imaginable why Otto should push for Rhaenyra's formal installation as Princess of Dragonstone.

The best explanation I can come up with is Otto's original plan was to stick to the majority interpretation of the Great Council decision (the male line comes always before the female, i.e. an uncle comes before a daughter or the son of a daughter) and have Alicent seduce and eventually marry Prince Daemon, thus ensuring that his grandson would eventually succeed either Viserys or Daemon.

When that failed, and Daemon openly discarded Alicent after he had taken what she offered, Otto would have been furious, and determined to destroy Daemon and ensure that he would never get the throne he apparently coveted. Such a rage could have blinded him to the fact that making Rhaenyra the Princess of Dragonstone and official Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne may actually come back and bite him in the ass.

In regards to Otto's relationship to Viserys we should also consider the rumor about Alicent and Jaehaerys. A reason why Alicent may have had an affair with Jaehaerys is to ensure that Jaehaerys did accept the vote of the Great Council and declare Viserys Prince of Dragonstone. Otto as Hand may also have been crucial in either rigging the Great Council or in influencing the Lords to vote for Viserys, explaining why Viserys decided/was forced to keep Otto as Hand.

Anyway, back to the topic:

From the moment Viserys publicly installed Rhaenyra as Princess of Dragonstone and Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne there was simply no turning back. Especially since Viserys did also not want to change that. But he (and everyone else) would actually have realized that changing the succession again would make the King/Iron Throne look stupid and erratic, and could also never restore the situation prior to 105. Rhaenyra was not declared 'Princess of Dragonstone and Heiress Presumptive to the Iron Throne until a son is born to me (that she was, in a sense, since 103)', she was actually declared and installed as heir. In this situation the birth of Alicent's sons could not possibly change the situation. Viserys would have had to formally disown Rhaenyra, declare Aegon heir in her place, and demand that the lords now do him obeisance instead of her, and hope that they forget the oaths they had previously sworn to Rhaenyra.

That would have been a mess in itself, which would have completely destroyed the relationship between Viserys and Rhaenyra while not necessarily ensuring a smooth and unchallenged succession upon Viserys' death.

In this scenario Otto and Alicent must have known in 106 - when Alicent married Viserys - as well as in 107 when Aegon was born, that Rhaenyra was and would remain Viserys' heir no matter what.

On the Rhaenyra-Daemon match:

I'm not sure how long Viserys officially mourned for Aemma, but if she died early in 105, Viserys could easily have waited 12-15 until he married Alicent, whereas Rhaenyra seems to have married Daemon only a few months after the death of Laenor. And it was not only the suddenness of that marriage, it was also the fact that Rhaenyra did choose Daemon that would have angered Viserys. I guess he still did not think that his brother was good for his darling daughter (and he was right).

I don't think he intended to forbid her to take a new husband. And I'm also inclined to believe that Rhaenyra/Daemon did outmaneuver Alicent here, as I assume Alicent may have intended to push for Aegon again to marry Rhaenyra.

On that whole issue:

The reasoning George/Gyldayn give for Viserys dismissing Otto/Alicent's original suggestion for the Rhaenyra-Aegon match is pretty bad. No idea how a six-year-old boy and a sixteen-year-old girl could not get along well. They would have little in common anyway, and most likely not spend all that much together anyway. Young Aegon clearly could not have been old enough to have any form of lasting quarrel with his half-sister besides, perhaps, 'Mommy! Rhaenyra has stolen my wooden sword and refuses to give it back! Make her!'

And assuming that Rhaenyra-Aegon had married at a rather younger age, or that Rhaenyra had taken Aegon with her to Dragonstone when she moved there, there would have been a pretty good chance that Rhaenyra could have molded Aegon into her creature rather than allow that he was continually influenced by Alicent. But then, I don't think Alicent would have allowed that, nor do I think that Rhaenyra had any particular interest to become her brother-husband/betrothed's nursemaid for at the next 7-8 years.

Yes, a grandson of Rhaenyra and Aegon could have united the two factions, but the Greens most likely would have tried to pull a Cersei and get rid of Rhaenyra as soon as she had a bunch of children from Aegon, ensuring his ascension to the Iron Throne.

On the Dorne thing:

Since Rhaenyra was Viserys' chosen heir, and he had no intention of changing that, it seems very likely that she would have remained his heir to rule over the conquered lands upon her succession, whereas the Prince of Dorne would have been her consort while ruling Dorne, and the realms. Rhaenyra's heir by the Prince of Dorne would have become the monarch of both realms, handing over the oversight over Sunspear and Dorne to one of his younger siblings (or a cousin, had he/she be an only child).

Elsewhere I argued that Baelor the Blessed may actually have not intended for Mariah Martell to become the Queen Consort of Westeros, as no one could have been sure that Prince Daeron would eventually become king. We don't know when exactly Mariah's father died, but it may be that it was only when it became apparent that Baelor would not continue his line that it was decided that Mariah should become queen rather than Daeron Prince Consort of Dorne. Originally the whole point of offering a Targaryen prince as match for Mariah would have been 'Hey, I trust you so much that I give you one of my own as hostage'. When Baelor brokered the match there was little reason to believe that the Prince of Dorne would hand over his eldest child as hostage/guest/betrothed to the Iron Throne...

Great Council:

The point I was trying to make there is that Viserys clearly did not share the interpretation of the decision that the Lords deciding for him had, for all time, invalidated the claim of the female line (or of grandsons born through the female line). To do that would have been stupid for any king, even a king who did not love his daughter as much as he apparently loved Rhaenyra, as it would have greatly tied his hand to choose his own heir. A king would then be forced to have only sons, as, if he had only daughters, his uncles or cousins through the male line would then become his involuntary heirs, whether he wants that or not.

Thus, I think, there is nothing wrong in taking the Great Council and Jaehaerys' decision for Viserys as one precedent from which not necessarily a general rule/law could be deduced. Since we have still to read a more detailed account on the Great Council we don't really know if the legal stuff was that important there, anyway. If Viserys knew he won the Iron Throne thanks to his charisma he would have pretty much dismissed most of the legal stuff other people tried to get from the decision...

[Viseris The Begger]

Only if Rhaenyra's descendents could ride her dragon, which is not necessarily true.

if Rhaenyra bastards could, then chances are those decedents could as well.

This is one of the reasons Targaryans had to practice incest...god knows what kinda of hell would be unleashed if houses fighting for throne in WOTFK had dragons fighting for them.....

Anyway back on Viserys....

I think it was very good that Viserys named Rhaenyra as his successor.....I very much like Dorne law of succession because it gives equal rights to children(son/daughter).... .It's sad that even in today's world there are country's it which women does not have a right to vote.....

If Rhaenyra became a queen or better sad if she won the war considering she was a queen for a short time it would be a great and the best precedent in Westeros history...

[Antler's Fury]

Essentially the succession crisis was caused by Ser Otto in the years 103-105. His enmity with Daemon apparently motivated him to go to great lengths to ensure that this guy does not, under any possibly circumstances, inherit the Iron Throne. Considering Viserys' and Aemma's relative youth there was really no need to fear that Daemon would, in the end, get the Iron Throne, as Viserys/Aemma could eventually have a son, Viserys could remarry and have sons (which he did), Rhaenyra could marry and have sons who could inherit if Viserys had a long reign. Daemon could even have predeceased Viserys and Rhaenyra.

I get what you are saying, but it was ultimately Viserys who chose to both name Rhaenyra his heir and marry Alicent, so any blame falls on him. He could have, and arguably should have, ignored Otto in at least one of these issues, but chose not to.

Considering that the Viserys-Alicent match cannot have come out of the blue in 106, as there are even rumors that Viserys had already an affair with Alicent while Aemma was still alive (possibly during her pregnancy), there is actually no rational reason imaginable why Otto should push for Rhaenyra's formal installation as Princess of Dragonstone.

The best explanation I can come up with is Otto's original plan was to stick to the majority interpretation of the Great Council decision (the male line comes always before the female, i.e. an uncle comes before a daughter or the son of a daughter) and have Alicent seduce and eventually marry Prince Daemon, thus ensuring that his grandson would eventually succeed either Viserys or Daemon.

When that failed, and Daemon openly discarded Alicent after he had taken what she offered, Otto would have been furious, and determined to destroy Daemon and ensure that he would never get the throne he apparently coveted. Such a rage could have blinded him to the fact that making Rhaenyra the Princess of Dragonstone and official Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne may actually come back and bite him in the ass.

I agree, though if the Viserys-Alicent match did not come out of the blue, I wonder why Viserys had Rhaenyra named heir when he knew he'd be marrying Alicent and could have had sons by her.

From the moment Viserys publicly installed Rhaenyra as Princess of Dragonstone and Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne there was simply no turning back. Especially since Viserys did also not want to change that. But he (and everyone else) would actually have realized that changing the succession again would make the King/Iron Throne look stupid and erratic, and could also never restore the situation prior to 105.

I get your point, but the very act of marrying Alicent and having a son by her in and of itself created ambiguity regarding the succession, made Viserys seem stupid and erratic, and made it impossible to restore the situation prior to 105. This is why Viserys should have either never married again, or married and named Aegon as his heir. Taking a half measure created ambiguity where there did not necessarily need to be any.

In this scenario Otto and Alicent must have known in 106 - when Alicent married Viserys - as well as in 107 when Aegon was born, that Rhaenyra was and would remain Viserys' heir no matter what.

Oh I'm certain that they knew. They just didn't care. It seems like they were plotting to see a Alicent's son by Viserys/Daemon on the Iron Throne ever since Baelon's death, and if so, they were not going to just give up after years of plotting merely because Viserys proved uncooperative. Indeed, if Viserys knew how instrumental Otto had been in rigging the votes in his favor, then his belief that Otto and Alicent would simply allow Rhaenyra to succeed instead of Aegon was more naivety from him. The Hightowers clearly wanted the throne, and if Viserys owed Otto for putting him on the throne, he ought to have paid him his due.

The point I was trying to make there is that Viserys clearly did not share the interpretation of the decision that the Lords deciding for him had, for all time, invalidated the claim of the female line (or of grandsons born through the female line). To do that would have been stupid for any king, even a king who did not love his daughter as much as he apparently loved Rhaenyra, as it would have greatly tied his hand to choose his own heir. A king would then be forced to have only sons, as, if he had only daughters, his uncles or cousins through the male line would then become his involuntary heirs, whether he wants that or not.

Thus, I think, there is nothing wrong in taking the Great Council and Jaehaerys' decision for Viserys as one precedent from which not necessarily a general rule/law could be deduced. Since we have still to read a more detailed account on the Great Council we don't really know if the legal stuff was that important there, anyway. If Viserys knew he won the Iron Throne thanks to his charisma he would have pretty much dismissed most of the legal stuff other people tried to get from the decision...

I don't blame Viserys for opting for Rhaenyra, I blame him for marrying even though producing an heir, which, from a political perspective, is the only reason for marriage, was already decided, creating unnecessary ambiguity regarding the succession.

[The silver dragon]

They could ride different dragons, but they could not ride her dragon.

they could also hatch dragons, by simply being near an egg.(i think it's because there was more residual magic in this era).

and while they can't ride her dragon while she alive they can when she dead.(cue war of the 5 kings with dragon)

[Antler's Fury]

Ultimately, the succession crisis happened because of two questions that Viserys never truly answered:

1) If he loved Rhaenyra, and wanted her to succeed him, then why did he marry again, when he already had an heir?

2) If he loved Alicent, then why didn't he let her son succeed him?

[Antler's Fury]

they could also hatch dragons, by simply being near an egg.(i think it's because there was more residual magic in this era).

and while they can't ride her dragon while she alive they can when she dead.(cue war of the 5 kings with dragon)

Dorne's having access to a dragon would only become an issue if Rhaenyra's Martell descendents could ride her dragon, and there's no guarantee that this would happen. Dreamfyre, for instance, was ridden by Rhaena Targaryen, but not her children. Vermithor was ridden by King Jaehaerys I, but not his children. It's entirely possible that Rhaenyra's dragon could be reclaimed by a Targaryen after her death, like other dragons were, thus keeping the dragons in the Targaryen family.