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Guest OsRavan

Roads and Castles and Maps?

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Guest OsRavan

No idea if its too obscure a topic.. but I know i have always been facinated with the roads in the book. And the obviouse fact they were all built at differnt times (there werent going to be half a dozen roads leading to a fishing village pre kings landing after all). George himself has said I know that the Kings Road didnt exist till Jaeharys. What about the others? It would be itneresting to see when the roads were built, and how. and why. etc.

Also for the castles. I noticed somewhere else someone asking for blue prints of them. Which would be hard to do. But maybe if you find a good artist a picture and a description of the castles would be cool. Kind of like a section on the major castles. Top of the page a picture of winterfell. Below a description. Next page picture of Stormsend. then description. so on. would def be cool for some of the catles and keeps we havent seen but feature prominantly on the map. Like (assuming its not spoilers) a picture and description of High Garden. Or Starfall. Or even the Dreadfort or Torrhens Square.

Also..... not sure how you guys are structuring it. But I assume your having a 7 kingdoms history section. Would be awsoeme if we could get pre targ maps of the 7 kingdoms. And maybe a rough map of the seven kingdoms under the first men? Since theres two sets of 7 kingdoms right? The ones pre andal invasion but after the age of heros and the one after the andal invasion. And maybe it would even be cool if we had a rough map of the hundred kingdoms period. Something to see how the starks etc expanded.

For that matter. Maybe a few paragraphs on HOW the starks and others united their kingdoms? Both the physical nature of how.. ie they spread north big battle here. their main rivals were so and so. etc. And a how in the what motivated or allowed them after millenia of disunity to unite.

But yeah I do kind of like the idea of a series of maps over time. Like here is the world in the hundred kingdoms (even if you cant name them all heh) Here is what it looked halfway between the age of heros and 7 first man kingdoms. ie im assuming the starks and greens etc didnt just pop fully formed. There were prob a bunch of diffenrt little kingdoms growing that clashed. Like at one point I bet there were the 20 kingdoms heh.

And then the 7 kingdoms of the FIRST MEN then the 7 of the Andals. After all I bet theres some seriouse border changes between the two.

Just some random ideas and things that weee bouncing around in my head.

OHH!!! OH!!!!! OH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Could we also have a dragon chronology? Something ive been WISHING for for ages? Ie if you cant give the brith date for the original 3 thats fine. But when did they die? How many kids did they have and what were the age span of those baby dragons? how many generations of dragons did the targs actually have? Kind of like a family tree of the targ dragon dynasty just like we have a family tree for the human targs!

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Also..... not sure how you guys are structuring it. But I assume your having a 7 kingdoms history section. Would be awsoeme if we could get pre targ maps of the 7 kingdoms. And maybe a rough map of the seven kingdoms under the first men? Since theres two sets of 7 kingdoms right? The ones pre andal invasion but after the age of heros and the one after the andal invasion. And maybe it would even be cool if we had a rough map of the hundred kingdoms period. Something to see how the starks etc expanded.

Actually, I don't think we know that there were ever only Seven Kingdoms prior to the Andal invasion. It's actually a rather vague period of history, and I'd say it's very unlikely any kind of information will be revealed about it. Too long ago, y'know?

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Guest OsRavan

I beleive there were though. After all, for instance, its the STARKS and the Kigns of the north who throw back the andal invasion at moat caillin. and then theres that river king whose name escapes me that held off the andals for 99 battles then lost the hundred if im not getting confused. No.. its pretty clear imo that there were 7 first man kingdoms that the andals swept in and took over. Or atleast if not 7 8 or 9. something like that. This wasnt the hundred kingdoms anymore I dont think

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I beleive there were though. After all, for instance, its the STARKS and the Kigns of the north who throw back the andal invasion at moat caillin. and then theres that river king whose name escapes me that held off the andals for 99 battles then lost the hundred if im not getting confused. No.. its pretty clear imo that there were 7 first man kingdoms that the andals swept in and took over. Or atleast if not 7 8 or 9. something like that. This wasnt the hundred kingdoms anymore I dont think

Yes as you've just mentioned there were the Riverkings at that time so there were atleast 8 I'm also pretty sure the Isle of Skagos was it's own kingdom at the time and perhaps the Sisters were their own knigdom at that time as well. However there were definatly more than the Seven proper which seem to have only existed for a span of 50-75 years. Also I'm pretty sure your misquoting the reference to a hundred kingdoms which as i understand refers to a vast span of time not that there were one hundred kingdoms proper at the same time. It refers to Kingdoms like the Hightowers who bent their knees to the Gardners, and the many different River dynasties of Fisher and Bracken who were later conquered by the Mudds.

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I beleive there were though. After all, for instance, its the STARKS and the Kigns of the north who throw back the andal invasion at moat caillin. and then theres that river king whose name escapes me that held off the andals for 99 battles then lost the hundred if im not getting confused. No.. its pretty clear imo that there were 7 first man kingdoms that the andals swept in and took over. Or atleast if not 7 8 or 9. something like that. This wasnt the hundred kingdoms anymore I dont think

No, I'm sorry, that's not convincing. That there could be one King in the North who held an invasion off doesnt prove he was the only "King" in the North, let alone mean anything as to whether or not there were other "kingdoms" around in the South.

And that's not even getting into the problems with perspective. Many characters in the series might well think that there were Kings in the North and not get any more detailed than that, so they could ultimately be wrong or inaccurate.

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Guest OsRavan

no its not full proof. thats hwy im asking it be put in this book obviously. if it was spelledo ut there would be no need. However there is a great deal of circumstantial evidence that leads us to beleive that there were roguhly 7 first man kingdoms prior to the andal invasion. looking at the facts we have logically that is the surmise you draw up. that there are ROUGHLY seven. Obviously the point of includign a map in this book would be to clear up confusion on the subject. Sure its possible that there werent. but the proofs you have to present like "the characters were confused' seems much mroe convuluted and lacking in common sense then the other way around. You couple the references in the books that seem to imply there were only a few firstman kingdoms at the time of the andals along with the fact that if there were still hundreds of first men kingdoms it is likely that there would have been.. atrl east for a time.. dozens if not hundreds of andal kingdoms. which there were not. and yes you could go "maybe there were and the characters never think about it"

but your arguments against are all counter factual. ie maybe they were imaginign this maybe they were mistaken maybe they dont care etc. And not to say that your wrong persay. But the evidence has to lead you to lean strongly the other way. And a map or passage on it on the obok could clear it up.

"Yes as you've just mentioned there were the Riverkings at that time so there were atleast 8 I'm also pretty sure the Isle of Skagos was it's own kingdom at the time and perhaps the Sisters were their own knigdom at that time as well. However there were definatly more than the Seven proper which seem to have only existed for a span of 50-75 years. Also I'm pretty sure your misquoting the reference to a hundred kingdoms which as i understand refers to a vast span of time not that there were one hundred kingdoms proper at the same time. It refers to Kingdoms like the Hightowers who bent their knees to the Gardners, and the many different River dynasties of Fisher and Bracken who were later conquered by the Mudds."

The term seven kingdoms comes from the time prior to Aegons conquest (which was way longer then 75 years) in which there were in fact seven kingdoms. The riverlands being ruled by the ironmen. And no in the age of heroes.. which was what I was reffering to.. there were in fact hundreds of kingdoms. Or atleast thats the phrase thats being thrown out there (whether its 80 or 200 i dont honestly know) ie this is the period in time where each of the 'bannermen' we see now (or their predecesors in most case since this wasl ike 8,000 years ago) were an independent kingdom.

these independent kingdoms were then slowly unified over time into roughly 7 or 8 major kingdoms.

Then the andals came swept aside the 6 to the south (in fact its been a while but isnt there an actual reference to them sweepign aside the 6 southern kingdoms?) and were stopped fro,m entering the north.

you then have the NEW seven kingdoms. or the andal version plus the north ruling.

then aegon comes and conquers everything.

but on the andal conquests. It is pretty clear that most of if not all the north and the riverlands are united at that period as the king in the north certainly owns the southern area's of the north... moat caiilin etc. And the mudds control the riverlands. that would imply that the firstmen at this point had roughly united westeros into 7 or 8 or somewhere in that range kingdoms.

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Then the andals came swept aside the 6 to the south (in fact its been a while but isnt there an actual reference to them sweepign aside the 6 southern kingdoms?) and were stopped fro,m entering the north.

there's this:

“The Andals were the first, a race of tall, fair-haired warriors who came with steel and fire and the seven-pointed star of the new gods painted on their chests. The wars lasted hundreds of years, but in the end the six southron kingdoms all fell before them. Only here, where the King in the North threw back every army that tried to cross the Neck, did the rule of the First Men endure. The Andals burnt out the weirwood groves, hacked down the faces, slaughtered the children where they found them, and everywhere proclaimed the triumph of the Seven over the old gods. So the children fled north—â€

However, it is possible that the reference was only to the current territory known as the South, and not a specific comment on the number of kingdoms existing at the time.

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Guest OsRavan

yes its POSSIBLE. But evidence seems to point towards there being roughly 7 firstman kingdoms prior to the conquest. both book evidence and common logical sense seems to indicate that was the most likely case.

Hence. I would like a map of them!

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yes its POSSIBLE. But evidence seems to point towards there being roughly 7 firstman kingdoms prior to the conquest. both book evidence and common logical sense seems to indicate that was the most likely case.

Hence. I would like a map of them!

Well, IMHO, it would be a bad thing storywise. Still, that objection is a personal opinion, not an intellectual one.

Still, while it is possible one way, it is not definitive. The various kingdoms (other than the King of River and Hills and the King of the North ) are very open to interpretation. Was Dorne one Kingdom or several?

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yes its POSSIBLE. But evidence seems to point towards there being roughly 7 firstman kingdoms prior to the conquest. both book evidence and common logical sense seems to indicate that was the most likely case.

Hence. I would like a map of them!

Well not when we do the math with the information provided: it's really quite simple 1. The Riverking's of house Mudd notably killed by the andals. 2. The King of the Isles of house Greyiron also notably conquered by the Andals. 3. The Lannister who decend from Lann's stock and were noteable joined by the Andal's. 4. The Reach Kings Gardener's who ruled since the Age of Heros. 5. The Storm Kings who ruled since the Age of Heros. 6. The Griffon King notably killed by the Andals. 7. Dorne was a coalition of states considered one kingdom like acient Greece. 8. The Winterking's of house Stark. 9. As i mentioned Earlier Skagos was likely its own kingdom at this time however I'd have the reference of their submitance. Others perhaps. I guess one could justify the statement that the 6 southern knigdoms were conquered by the Andals since Island Nations like the Iron Islands not being part of the mainland were probably not considered part of the southern kingdoms proper.

However I don't see your point with the map since GRRM doesn't do boarders it'd just be the AGOT map with less landmarks like Dragonstone and roads.

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Well not when we do the math with the information provided: it's really quite simple 1. The Riverking's of house Mudd notably killed by the andals.

Actually, he was King of the Rivers and the Hills. Is that a siginificant difference? Possibly. But note, he was defeated by seven Andal Kings in battle. I'd say that indicates some consolidation afterwards.

4. The Reach Kings Gardener's who ruled since the Age of Heros.

Actually, we don't know when the Gardeners became supreme in the Reach, just that the claim descent from the Greenhand.

7. Dorne was a coalition of states considered one kingdom like acient Greece.

So, you accept that some of the kingdoms may be artificial constructs?

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Actually, he was King of the Rivers and the Hills. Is that a siginificant difference? Possibly. But note, he was defeated by seven Andal Kings in battle. I'd say that indicates some consolidation afterwards.

Not as i see it but whatever.

Actually, we don't know when the Gardeners became supreme in the Reach, just that the claim descent from the Greenhand.

So, you accept that some of the kingdoms may be artificial constructs?

Never claimed the Gardeners were supreme just that they were styled as Reach Kings or some such title.

Not sure what you mean buy that last Q maybe you're confusing me with Osravan here.

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Never claimed the Gardeners were supreme just that they were styled as Reach Kings or some such title.

Probably did, but there might have been other kings around that disputed that.

Not sure what you mean buy that last Q maybe you're confusing me with Osravan here.

Nope, just applying your statement that Dorne, obviously not ruled by one leader at the time of the Andal invasion, might well be considered one Kingdom, would represent a decision to declare a Kingdom before its time, so to speak.

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Guest Other-in-law

I take the whole "six kings in golden fetters" that Nymeria sent to the Wall to be pretty conclusive that the Andals did not accomplish the final preconquest level of consolidation south of the neck.

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Os,

Given that they all terminate at King's Landing, I'd say it's probable that all of those main roads were "built" in Jaehaerys's time, or in that of his sucessors. I still maintain that they would have co-opted stretches of older roads, however. In particular, I kind of doubt that there was not a central road leading through the North in the days of the Kings of Winter. ;)

There'll be info on Jaehaerys, so I'd guess that we may be able to get into this somewhat more.

Many of the ideas you mention are already being considered. ;) I can't say we're going to have much in the way of explaining how the Starks consolidated the North unless GRRM has worked some of that out.

I am very doubtful a dragon family tree will be provided. ;) There may be information on the total number of dragons and perhaps a couple new dragon names and details, perhaps...

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Getting more information on what old kingdoms there were would be interesting, especially since as well as the Kings in the North, the Storm Kings, River Kings, Iron Kings, Kings of Vale and Sky, Kings of the Rock and Kings of the Reach, there were also the many pre-Rhoynar Dornish states, the Kings of Duskendale, the Kings of Oldtown, the Kings (I believe) of Crackclaw Point etc. Weren't there also Marsh Kings as well (presumably of the Neck)?

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We've got sections planned for the Age of Heroes and post-Rhoynish, pre-Doom Westeros, so we can probably touch on some of those matters there.

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Cool. Any chance of elaborating on Mors Martell? Did he hold Sunspear before Nymeria's arrival or take it over after? Was Sunspear just one castle among many or was it always held by the 'strongest' Dornish faction? Hmm, did Sunspear even exist pre-Nymeria? Those questions would be quite cool. Although at the rate suggestions are amalgamating, possibly something to hold back for Volume 2? ;)

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For any map of Westeros, I'd like to see some actual borders of holdings by great lords/Wardens. I know that rough approximations can be made in some areas, and the North is pretty straight forward, but I would still like to see some actual setup "domains" of the Lannisters, Tyrells, etc.

That, and color. I'm a sucker for color maps, all nice a pretty. Other than that, as detailed as you can go, with as many cities, towns, important sites, castles, battle sites, etc. -- go all out! Multiple maps even. We can go map crazy with this book, right? :)

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I'm more interested in nowdays westeros:

Would it be possible to find out name of Keep ruled by house Clegane?

And not just them. There are tons of houses whose residing place we don't know, or we know name of the place, but we don't know where is it situated on the Map, or what type of place is it (town, keep, half of town-I wrote this because I think Gulltown is ruled by 2 famillies). It would be interesting to know them as many as possible. :cool:

I'm sorry if this was mentioned before. I looked but couldn't find it.

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