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Guest OsRavan

Roads and Castles and Maps?

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Really up to George what information we'll get, if any, on any new maps. :) But certainly, we'll see what we can get out of him. ;)

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I'm more interested in nowdays westeros:

Would it be possible to find out name of Keep ruled by house Clegane?

And not just them. There are tons of houses whose residing place we don't know, or we know name of the place, but we don't know where is it situated on the Map, or what type of place is it (town, keep, half of town-I wrote this because I think Gulltown is ruled by 2 famillies).

Well AFFC does establish House Grafton as the Lords of Gulltown.

Isn't the Clegane keep given as nameless it seems a pretty common theme that young houses with new keeps haven't named them yet or don't care to. Petyr says his small keep on the fingers is nameless, i think Jaime mentions a burned keep that belonged to house Wode without naming it.

On a simlar note see if you can get Ser Wilbert __?__ the Knight of Stoney Sept's family name out of him.

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Well AFFC does establish House Grafton as the Lords of Gulltown.

from Heraldry at Citadel:

No member of the house has appeared yet. Gull Tower is apparently located within, or in very close vicinity to, Gulltown. The head of the house is known as the Knight of Gull Tower.

Now this might not be perfect example, but IIRC I've heard that sometimes big City might be ruled by 2 houses.

It would be cool to get mafia type of novel with war between 2 houses :cool:

Isn't the Clegane keep given as nameless it seems a pretty common theme that young houses with new keeps haven't named them yet or don't care to. Petyr says his small keep on the fingers is nameless, i think Jaime mentions a burned keep that belonged to house Wode without naming it.

Didn't know this. I can live with this. Thanx.

But it would still be nice to know where it is.

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Yes, George has previously indicated to us that the Graftons and Shetts may both rule in Gulltown, when we asked him about his heraldry notes listing both houses as "of Gulltown". If he's still holding to this, than Gull Tower is a part of Gulltown, more or less, but that the Shetts control it and the area around it as vassals of the Royces, of all people.

Alternatively, George changed his mind and Gull Tower and Gulltown are unrelated.

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Ran,

I would love to know where New Barrel is. :)

... and I guess it might be nice to know about those other relatively insignificant castles and keeps from the less significant houses and landed knights and such.

Edited for grammer

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Os,

yes its POSSIBLE. But evidence seems to point towards there being roughly 7 firstman kingdoms prior to the conquest. both book evidence and common logical sense seems to indicate that was the most likely case.

Hence. I would like a map of them!

What evidence?

For all the evidence there is, I've come to an entirely different conclusion -- that there were in fact hundreds of kingdoms under the First Men -- that castles like Orkmont and Pinkmaiden and Starfall were each the seats of kingdoms in their own rights or would have been if those castles in particular had all been built at the time. In any case, I've always thought there were hundreds of ruined castles across the continent which each could have been the seat of some other kingdom. England alone once sustained seven different kingdoms, and on that island besides was still Wales and what is now Scotland; as Westeros is hundreds of times larger, it's only fair to assume the possibility, at least, of its being a patchwork of hundreds of kingdoms.

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Guest OsRavan

dude... tony... i already answered that.

at one point there were hudnreds of first man kingdoms.

however in text evidence would indicate that there were *roughly* seven by the time the first men were conquered. Why do i say *roughly* seven? because it depends on part if you count offshore islands like the iron islands as part of westeros in which case tech its 8 (as it is now tech 8 not 7 also) but the point being we arent dealing with dozens of kingdoms by this point.

The evidence? The most blatant peice of evidence is the quote

"The wars lasted hundreds of years, but in the end the six southron kingdoms all fell before them. Only here, where the King in the North threw back every army that tried to cross the Neck, did the rule of the First Men endure."

speicifcly that the six southern kingdoms... thats SIX.... fell... and only in the north were they thrown back.

circumstantialy with this.. the fact that starks were fighting at moat caillin.. on the other end of the north from winterfell.. would indicate that consolidation of the north if not compelte (as i would argue) was well under way. It does not go "a king of the north" or "the stark king" it says THE king.

even more explictly for you here is another exact quote.

"so long as the kingdoms of the first men held sway, the pact endured, all through the age of heroes and hte long night and the birth of the seven kingdoms, yet finally there came a time many cneturies later when other people crossed the narrow sea. The Andals cmae first a warrior of...blah blah blah"

I dont think we can get it any clearer then that. The first men held sway from the age of heroes (which is mentioend previously as when theres hundreds of kingdoms) *THROUGH* the long night *AND* the birth of the *SEVEN* kingdoms... UNTILL the andals came.

how much clearer can it be?

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The Hightowers were kings before the Andals came, remained kings when the Andals came, and only some time after that did they bend the knee to the kings of the Reach and give up their crowns.

The Darklyns were kings "before the Andals came", which implies (to me, anyways) that the arrival of the Andals ended their rule, but I suppose one could read it as their having ceased being kings before the Andals arrived.

I believe spoiler material has suggested that Boltons remained independent of the Starks for quite a lot longer than the rest of the North.

My reading of this material -- besides the possibility that GRRM has at some point changed his mind -- is that the Seven Kingdoms were founded in the Age of Heroes era, that they possibly came to be the dominant kingdoms on the continent as well, but that they did not all encompass the territory that they would eventually come to encompass. There were still petty kingdoms around their edges.

I rather wonder about the Redwynes. They or some predecessor house must have ruled as kings.

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For those interested in the maps in the book, it looks like the maps are going to go back to the original source, GRRM, rather than being based on one of the ones already published.

And there's going to be a lot of them, including one or three historical maps (i.e. depicting things at historical times), and some city maps. We'll have more maps than other series world books I'm familiar with. ;)

More specific details down the road. :)

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For those interested in the maps in the book, it looks like the maps are going to go back to the original source, GRRM, rather than being based on one of the ones already published.

And there's going to be a lot of them, including one or three historical maps (i.e. depicting things at historical times), and some city maps. We'll have more maps than other series world books I'm familiar with. ;)

More specific details down the road. :)

Nice, I'd really like to see those. It'll be an amazing addition to an already amazing series. Too bad we have to wait so long... But we'll have A Dance with Dragons to comfort us while we wait... :P

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Will there be any maps depicting Valyria before The Doom, or the Free Cities and so forth where Dany is?

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And there's going to be a lot of them, including one or three historical maps (i.e. depicting things at historical times), and some city maps. We'll have more maps than other series world books I'm familiar with. ;)

:drool:

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