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MtnLion

R+L=J v.120

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Reference guide

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targaryen fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?

Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty. For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.


But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious. Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

Frequently suggested readings: At the tower of joy by MtnLion and support of the toj analysis by Ygrain

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the A Song of Ice and Fire readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 18 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother
?
Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Since this theory has been refined so well, will Martin change the outcome of the story to surprise his fans?
No, he said he won't change the outcome of the story only because some people have put together all the clues and solved the puzzle.

Previous editions:

Please click on the spoiler below to reveal links to all previous editions of this thread.

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a” (thread twenty-two (a))

R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J v.33” (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"
R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

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R+L=J v.41" (thread forty-one)

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R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

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R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

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R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

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R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

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R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

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R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

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R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

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R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

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R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

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R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)

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R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

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R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

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R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty-four)

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R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

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R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)

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R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v.58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v.59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v.60" (thread sixty)

"R+L=J v.61" (thread sixty-one)

"R+L=J v.62" (thread sixty-two)

"R+L=J v.63" (thread sixty-three)

"R+L=J v.64" (thread sixty-four)

"R+L=J v.65" (thread sixty-five)

"R+L=J v.66" (thread sixty-six)

"R+L=J v.67" (thread sixty-seven)

"R+L=J v.68" (thread sixty-eight)

"R+L=J v.69" (thread sixty-nine)

"R+L=J v.70" (thread seventy)

"R+L=J v.71" (thread seventy-one)

"R+L=J v.72" (thread seventy-two)

"R+L=J v.73" (thread seventy-three)

"R+L=J v.74" (thread seventy-four)

"R+L=J v.75" (thread seventy-five)

"R+L=J v.76" (thread seventy-six)

"R+L=J v.77" (thread seventy-seven)

"R+L=J v.78" (thread seventy-eight)

"R+L=J v.79" (thread seventy-nine)

"R+L=J v.80" (thread eighty)

"R+L=J v.81" (thread eighty-one)

"R+L=J v.82" (thread eighty-two)

"R+L=J v.83" (thread eighty-three)

"R+L=J v.84" (thread eighty-four)

"R+L=J v.85" (thread eighty-five)

"R+L=J v.86" (thread eighty-six)

"R+L=J v.87" (thread eighty-seven)

"R+L=J v.88" (thread eighty-eight)

"R+L=J v.89" (thread eighty-nine)

"R+L=J v.90" (thread ninety)

"R+L=J v.91" (thread ninety-one)

"R+L=J v.92" (thread ninety-two)

"R+L=J v.93" (thread ninety-three)

"R+L=J v.94" (thread ninety-four)

"R+L=J v.95" (thread ninety-five)

"R+L=J v.96" (thread ninety-six)

"R+L=J v.97" (thread ninety-seven)

"R+L=J v.98" (thread ninety-eight)

"R+L=J v.99" (thread ninety-nine)

"R+L=J v.100" (thread one hundred)

"R+L=J v.101" (thread one hundred one)

"R+L=J v.102" (thread one hundred two)

"R+L=J v.103" (thread one hundred three)

"R+L=J v.104" (thread one hundred four)

"R+L=J v.105" (thread one hundred five)

"R+L=J v.106" (thread one hundred six)

"R+L=J v.107" (thread one hundred seven)

"R+L=J v.108" (thread one hundred eight)

"R+L=J v.109" (thread one hundred nine)

"R+L=J v.110" (thread one hundred ten)

"R+L=J v.111" (thread one hundred eleven)

"R+L=J v.112" (thread one hundred twelve)

"R+L=J v.113" (thread one hundred thirteen)

"R+L=J v.114" (thread one hundred fourteen)

"R+L=J v.115" (thread one hundred fifteen)

"R+L=J v.116" (thread one hundred sixteen)

"R+L=J v.117" (thread one hundred seventeen)

"R+L=J v.118" (thread one hundred eighteen)

"R+L=J v.119" (thread one hundred nineteen)

[ The TWoIaF Spoilers ] R+L=J threads were used to openly discuss spoilers from TWoIaF at the time (about version 114, above) we needed to protect that information. The links to those pages are in the spoiler below.

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.1"

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.2"

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.3"

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What is this? 119 still draws breath, it's an attack on the sovereignty of 119 which still sits the throne. 120 The usurper thread, and MtnLion the usurpers cat.

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New, shiny thread :D

We need some new, shiny arguments XD

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Gads, what a nightmare the copy'n'paste turned into. For some odd reason the spoiler tags weren't working on the last few links, and I had to edit each one out and back in . . .


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What is this? 119 still draws breath, it's an attack on the sovereignty of 119 which still sits the throne. 120 The usurper thread, and MtnLion the usurpers cat.

Quick, put it out of its misery. ;)

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Gads, what a nightmare the copy'n'paste turned into. For some odd reason the spoiler tags weren't working on the last few links, and I had to edit each one out and back in . . .

Please it's fine, I will just adjust my delicate senses to the break between 114 and 115, but I will live, I think. It will be hard, but we will press on. Besides most of the regulars know all that stuff and none of the new people ever seem to read it. Though it would be funny if a new poster came on and pointed out the break between 114 and 115 and asked who did it.

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I thought we agreed not to open new threads until the current one was locked. No matter what, a few of us are going to post in the pinned thread by reflex. Maybe a reminder of that needs to be posted at the top of the OP.


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I thought we agreed not to open new threads until the current one was locked. No matter what, a few of us are going to post in the pinned thread by reflex. Maybe a reminder of that needs to be posted at the top of the OP.

I reported the old thread and the new one. I can hope that they will be faster than the last time I did this, but even then there was very little if any crossover.

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Please it's fine, I will just adjust my delicate senses to the break between 114 and 115, but I will live, I think. It will be hard, but we will press on. Besides most of the regulars know all that stuff and none of the new people ever seem to read it. Though it would be funny if a new poster came on and pointed out the break between 114 and 115 and asked who did it.

Is that better?

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I reported the old thread and the new one. I can hope that they will be faster than the last time I did this, but even then there was very little if any crossover.

Right, but still. Report the old one, and keep posting in it until it's locked. That way there won't be any confusion.

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It makes no sense for a fever dream to be an accurate depiction of reality. Instead it seems like a simple way to fool readers expecting a standard fairytale.

(moved from the last thread)

It does indeed make no sense for a fever dream to be an accurate depiction of reality. However it also makes no sense for a writer to build up a central mystery and then to give a first (and 5 books in, only) reveal in the form of a pure red herring.

Ned's dream is a dream, and the details absolutely shouldn't be trusted. However we can assume that what we are seeing is the events at the ToJ filtered through Ned's subconscious. The details may be radically different, but the dream must represent the impact of those events on Ned's psyche. That's what we can draw information from.

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Why did all 3 KG stay behind when Rhaegar rode to King's Landing and to war? They were following orders. They swore to obey and so they did while their king was in King's Landing. They did not stay away to protect a king.

(Moved from the last thread because...)

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Why did all 3 KG stay behind when Rhaegar rode to King's Landing and to war? They were following orders. They swore to obey and so they did while their king was in King's Landing. They did not stay away to protect a king.

(Moved from the last thread because...)

And that covers the staying there just fine.

What I have yet to see is anyone present a remotely plausible argument as to why they would STAY there after finding this out. There is a clear heir in need of protection, with NO Kingsguard presence. Instead of sending at least one person to him, they continue to follow the orders of a dead crown prince, whose order-giving authority extended from a now dead king. Then, whenever Ned learns the complete situation, whatever it is, he considers them shining examples to the rest of the world. A man who has forsworn other vows to protect children. A man who I highly doubt would consider a dead crown prince's orders as overriding leaving a child unprotected against what they know Robert's advisers will do to potential rival claimants.

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And that covers the staying there just fine.

What I have yet to see is anyone present a remotely plausible argument as to why they would STAY there after finding this out. There is a clear heir in need of protection, with NO Kingsguard presence. Instead of sending at least one person to him, they continue to follow the orders of a dead crown prince, whose order-giving authority extended from a now dead king. Then, whenever Ned learns the complete situation, whatever it is, he considers them shining examples to the rest of the world. A man who has forsworn other vows to protect children. A man who I highly doubt would consider a dead crown prince's orders as overriding leaving a child unprotected against what they know Robert's advisers will do to potential rival claimants.

Exactly. What were they up to? Why were they away from everything? Why were they at the old tower of joy when Ned ran across them? Doesn't make sense if there primary vow is to protect the king. It must be something else.

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Exactly. What were they up to? Why were they away from everything? Why were they at the old tower of joy when Ned ran across them? Doesn't make sense if there primary vow is to protect the king. It must be something else.

these are rhetoric questions.... right?

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Exactly. What were they up to? Why were they away from everything? Why were they at the old tower of joy when Ned ran across them? Doesn't make sense if there primary vow is to protect the king. It must be something else.

That is the only way it makes sense. They stay at the ToJ initially because Rhaegar ordered them to. He's alive, Aerys is alive, and other qualified protection is available. You are saying 3 shining examples of Kings Gaurdom to the world hold a dead man's orders above protecting the king?

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Shiny!



Oh, are we doing #TeamObey vs #TeamProtect? Sure...why not



#TeamProtect #TeamJustBendTheKneeAlready


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