R+L=J v.120

[sj4iy]

Still seems a little odd to me. The simplest, and most reasonable explanation imo, is that Aerys orders Hightower to find Rhaegar, Rhaegar orders Hightower to stay/return to the ToJ and Hightower obeys since Aerys had four KG with him at that point.

I'm not saying that this explanation is the right one. I'm simply pointing out that I believe there are two very viable explanations as to why Hightower stayed there. I simply prefer the idea that she was Aerys' hostage to Hightower simply staying because he had nothing better to do.

[Rrachel]

Hi! First time writting on a R+L=J thread here!

A couple months ago I finished reading all the books and with that knowledge the theory or hints about R+L=J never hit me until I started participating on forums and reading people's opinions and deductions about the path of the different characters on ASOIAF. I don't know if I am the slow one here... or if it's a thing that I never really cared a lot about Jon Snow and his origin... or that it is indeed a thing that took readers a long time to figure out... but either way: it makes a lot of sense.

I went back to the wiki to read more about Lyanna and what happened when Ned went for her... the bath of blood she was on, the screams, and the last promise... including the little Ned say he remembers of all that. She giving birth at that moment seems accurate with the clues we dispose and finally I do belive in one of the theories people have posted on the forum... yay! To be honest, I'm one of those people that always belive others over-interpretate a lot of things to fix them on what they desire or dream that could happen... but on the case of R+L=J things seem more logical and smooth.

Either way. In this case, Jon has less chances of being the lord of Winterfell, since he's the bastard of Lyanna instead of Ned, and Ned's children have more rights of Winterfell than Jon. At the same time, from the Targ bloodline, Aegon (his half brother) still has more rights of the IT than Jon for being consumed on marriage. So in the end.... R+L=J doesn't give Jon more than what he already has? Just hopes of him being one of the 3 heads of the dragon of Daenery's prophecy?... In which case, Jon + Aegon + Dany = 3 heads of the dragon?

[Kingmonkey]

I think the most likely situation is that Hightower was ordered to take Lyanna 'hostage' by Aerys to ensure Rhaegar's cooperation.

Yeah, I like this notion. In Ned's Dream, Arthur has a sad smile on his lips. I read that as a hint that Arthur is not happy with what's about to go down, but is resigned to it. Hightower's "Aerys would yet sit on the iron throne" is not in direct conflict with Rhaegar's "changes will be made", but does hint that Arthur's sympathies and Hightower's aren't really in sync.

[MtnLion]

I'm not saying that this explanation is the right one. I'm simply pointing out that I believe there are two very viable explanations as to why Hightower stayed there. I simply prefer the idea that she was Aerys' hostage to Hightower simply staying because he had nothing better to do.

Hightower had to stay. He must protect the king and the royal family. Lady Lyanna is a member of the royal family, and Whent and Dayne are bound to travel with Rhaegar by the king's orders. Someone had to stay with Lyanna.

[sj4iy]

Hi! First time writting on a R+L=J thread here!

A couple months ago I finished reading all the books and with that knowledge the theory or hints about R+L=J never hit me until I started participating on forums and reading people's opinions and deductions about the path of the different characters on ASOIAF. I don't know if I am the slow one here... or if it's a thing that I never really cared a lot about Jon Snow and his origin... or that it is indeed a thing that took readers a long time to figure out... but either way: it makes a lot of sense.

I went back to the wiki to read more about Lyanna and what happened when Ned went for her... the bath of blood she was on, the screams, and the last promise... including the little Ned say he remembers of all that. She giving birth at that moment seems accurate with the clues we dispose and finally I do belive in one of the theories people have posted on the forum... yay! To be honest, I'm one of those people that always belive others over-interpretate a lot of things to fix them on what they desire or dream that could happen... but on the case of R+L=J things seem more logical and smooth.

Either way. In this case, Jon has less chances of being the lord of Winterfell, since he's the bastard of Lyanna instead of Ned, and Ned's children have more rights of Winterfell than Jon. At the same time, from the Targ bloodline, Aegon (his half brother) still has more rights of the IT than Jon for being consumed on marriage. So in the end.... R+L=J doesn't give Jon more than what he already has? Just hopes of him being one of the 3 heads of the dragon of Daenery's prophecy?... In which case, Jon + Aegon + Dany = 3 heads of the dragon?

Depends on whether you think Jon is legitimate or not.

Many people think he is legitimate and that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. Targaryens have practiced polygamy in the past.

Welcome to the thread!

[Consigliere]

I'm not saying that this explanation is the right one. I'm simply pointing out that I believe there are two very viable explanations as to why Hightower stayed there. I simply prefer the idea that she was Aerys' hostage to Hightower simply staying because he had nothing better to do.

Fair enough. Both options are viable however I disagree with the bolded. In the "not a hostage" scenario I don't believe that this should be boiled down to Hightower had nothing better to do. He would be protecting members of the royal family and in a location well away from the fighting.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Arys wanted Jaime to stay with him.

Jaime goes and asks Rhaegar to go and fight with him. He wouldn't ask him if there wasn't a small little chance of a Prince being able to override the King's order.

I think this was more Jaime hoping that Rhaegar would be able to change Aerys' mind... Not such a strange thought,... he did convince Aerys to send a raven to CR for help, after all.

[sj4iy]

Hightower had to stay. He must protect the king and the royal family. Lady Lyanna is a member of the royal family, and Whent and Dayne are bound to travel with Rhaegar by the king's orders. Someone had to stay with Lyanna.

Actually, no. Hightower protects the king and those that the king tells him to protect. He is under no obligation whatsoever to protect any the royal family unless the king orders such.

Strictly speaking, it was purely the king’s choice whether or not to extend Kingsguard protection to others, even those of royal blood. Some kings thought it right and proper to dispatch Kingsguard to serve and defend their wives and children, siblings, aunts, uncles, and cousins of greater and lesser degree, and occasionally even their lovers, mistresses, and bastards. But others preferred to use household knights and men-at-arms for those purposes, whilst keeping their seven as their own personal guard, never far from their sides.

The only two explanations for Hightower staying is this:

1. He was ordered by Aerys to obey Rhaegar's orders.

2. He was ordered by Aerys to take Lyanna hostage to ensure Rhaegar's return.

Either is possible, of course. But I find #1 less likely than #2. And no order of Rhaegar's would override Aerys' orders to Hightower. I just find it unbelievable that Aerys would have Hightower fetch Rhaegar, whom he knows is in hiding with Lyanna somewhere, and then not give Hightower orders to bring Rhaegar back to KL. Hightower isn't just a messenger- he's the LC of the KG. How can Aerys assure Rhaegar's cooperation? Taking Lyanna hostage.

And even though Whent and Dayne always travel with Rhaegar...this time, they didn't. He went alone. Why would they allow Rhaegar to go into battle alone? Because Rhaegar ordered them to stay.

[markg171]

Except Team Protect doesn't actually make any sense.

Aerys is the one that the KG vow to protect. The royal family are just subdivisions of that vow. Yet Aerys was left guarded by only 1 KG, the youngest one of them, while Rhaegar was protected by Barristan, Lewyn, and Darry, and Lyanna by Hightower, Dayne, and Whent. Now don't you think that that's a little odd, if the KG primary duty is to protect the king, yet the king was the least protected person? It's almost like someone divided up the KG and made them obey orders... Hell we even see that Jaime is the only one guarding Aerys because Rhaegar told him to stay there and do it.

Not only that, but even if Rhaegar and Lyanna married and any potential child was legitimate, that makes no sense that 3 KG would be guarding Lyanna and Jon, while there was no one guarding Elia, Aegon, and Rhaenys. Aegon comes before Jon in any line of succession, yet he was left unguarded. The KG would be doing a pretty poor job of protecting the royal family, if they didn't actually protect the royal family. Hell we know, that a KG member is always assigned to guard the drawbridge to the royal family's tower, yet no one was there protecting it.... It's almost like someone told them to be somewhere else...

Thirdly, the KG at the TOJ, even say that they couldn't be at the Trident with Rhaegar, the crown prince, and they couldn't be at KL with their king and Rhaegar's family. So why couldn't they be there, if their job is to protect the king and the royal family? The only reason that they can't be somewhere, is because they're told not to be somewhere.

[sj4iy]

I'm just going to state upfront that I'm not on either team protect or obey.

I think they were doing both. They obeyed their orders to stay, and after the deaths of Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon, their duty changed to protect.

The situation drastically changed...there's no reason to say that they had to protect someone the entire time or obey someone the entire time. They could have done both at one time or another and still hold true to their vows.

[JonSnow4President]

Except Team Protect doesn't actually make any sense.

Aerys is the one that the KG vow to protect. The royal family are just subdivisions of that vow. Yet Aerys was left guarded by only 1 KG, the youngest one of them, while Rhaegar was protected by Barristan, Lewyn, and Darry, and Lyanna by Hightower, Dayne, and Whent. Now don't you think that that's a little odd, if the KG primary duty is to protect the king, yet the king was the least protected person? It's almost like someone divided up the KG and made them obey orders... Hell we even see that Jaime is the only one guarding Aerys because Rhaegar told him to stay there and do it.

Not only that, but even if Rhaegar and Lyanna married and any potential child was legitimate, that makes no sense that 3 KG would be guarding Lyanna and Jon, while there was no one guarding Elia, Aegon, and Rhaenys. Aegon comes before Jon in any line of succession, yet he was left unguarded. The KG would be doing a pretty poor job of protecting the royal family, if they didn't actually protect the royal family. Hell we know, that a KG member is always assigned to guard the drawbridge to the royal family's tower, yet no one was there protecting it.... It's almost like someone told them to be somewhere else...

Thirdly, the KG at the TOJ, even say that they couldn't be at the Trident with Rhaegar, the crown prince, and they couldn't be at KL with their king and Rhaegar's family. So why couldn't they be there, if their job is to protect the king and the royal family? The only reason that they can't be somewhere, is because they're told not to be somewhere.

Are you being willfully thick?

Up to news of Aerys' death, Aerys is protected, they have orders to do what they're doing from either Aerys, or a person whose authority under them stems from Aerys.

After news of Aerys' death. AEGON IS FUCKING DEAD. Rhaenys is DEAD. So, it would make sense that they go to the person the throne should belong to, as they are Targaryen KG. That would be Viserys. But they don't. They stay at the ToJ, either 1)Guarding a dead crown prince's sex doll, 2) just sticking with the prior king's last orders because they have nothing better to do (except protect Viserys, because clearly dead king's orders override protection), 3) Guarding the new heir.

[Kingmonkey]

He inherits the fleet at Dragonstone, and all of the loyalist army that sailed there in the fleet, as well as Dragonstone, itself. The Targaryens are far from finished at this point, even though Robert has named himself king, and taken the throne. Barristan was taken in by Robert's generosity and guile, never thinking that the Targaryens would reappear in Westeros.

The Targaryens basically are finished at this point. The loyalist army was a few thousand men of the Dragonstone garrison, and the biggest military advantage of having the fleet there was keeping it out of Robert's hands. They bought themselves time while the Baratheon fleet was built and could have made a landing costly, but they were hardly in a position to fight a reconquista. The Targ forces were broken at the Trident, the Tyrells had already surrendered without a fight when they saw the war was lost.

[markg171]

The conversation indicates that the Kingsguard were not going to give away the secret that Jon was present and the heir. Flight may have been an option until Ned arrives, out of nowhere, obviously with some help. Why not flee sooner? Lyanna may not die, and separating baby from mother unnecessarily is not a good thing, especially when it may come back on you in later years. They are secure at the tower, no one has stumbled upon them a that location, and indeed it appears that Hightower had to do a lot of detective work and may have been aided by chance to locate Rhaegar, et al. It seems it took several months for Hightower to arrive.

What does Jon inherit? He inherits the fleet at Dragonstone, and all of the loyalist army that sailed there in the fleet, as well as Dragonstone, itself. The Targaryens are far from finished at this point, even though Robert has named himself king, and taken the throne. Barristan was taken in by Robert's generosity and guile, never thinking that the Targaryens would reappear in Westeros.

Is there any reason to believe that Ned would take Jon and marshal the Targaryen armies to take the throne away from his friend, Robert? None, the Kingsguard can only assess him by the rumors that they hear, and it is very unlikely that they have heard of the split because of the children and Jaime. So, there we have it, there is no mutual talking ground, and the king's secrets must be protected, as well as the king himself.

I know that honor is a difficult thing to grasp in modern society. If one does not have honor, then the reason for the dialog and ending are very obscure. It seems apparent that the Kingsguard are living up to their vow, as they claim, by protecting the king with their very lives. They don't directly say so, because that would reveal the king's presence to his enemies. That Ned attempted to negotiate a way around the impasse is to his credit, as well. He did not press for details, because doing so would infringe upon their motives. It was a delicate situation which unfortunately did not have a possible peaceful resolution. Ned cannot leave peacefully. The Kingsguard cannot leave peacefully.

What the hell are you talking about? Robert was THE king. Every Lord Paramount had declared for him at this point, and he smashed Dorne into submission at the Trident so they couldn't oppose him either and never tried to do so (Oberyn tried, but Doran is ruler of Dorne, not Oberyn). Robert didn't just name himself king, the entire realm proclaimed him king.

[MtnLion]

And even though Whent and Dayne always travel with Rhaegar...this time, they didn't. He went alone. Why would they allow Rhaegar to go into battle alone? Because Rhaegar ordered them to stay.

There is no indication anywhere that Rhaegar travelled alone. We are told that Rhaegar always travels with his sworn swords, who we find out are Whent and Dayne.

Might as well say the flying spaghetti monster escorted Rhaegar to King's Landing, as say he travelled alone.

[Kingmonkey]

I'm just going to state upfront that I'm not on either team protect or obey.

#TeamNeitherIt'sJustNotThatSimple represent!

The situation drastically changed...

I think this is a really key point. Whatever happens, the 3KG are in uncharted territory. There is no clear guidelines in the case of the throne being usurped, and it would be pretty delusional to think that the line of succession was unarguable given Targaryen history. The KG do not get to make up their own orders, but in this case, they would have been forced to either way.

The idea that there was one simple, unambiguous guiding principle they would have followed all the way through is really rather silly. I suspect they were winging it, and probably only acted in concert because they were all Kingsguards and ultimately Hightower was the only available authority rather than because they were in full agreement on the right path to take.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Hi! First time writting on a R+L=J thread here!

A couple months ago I finished reading all the books and with that knowledge the theory or hints about R+L=J never hit me until I started participating on forums and reading people's opinions and deductions about the path of the different characters on ASOIAF. I don't know if I am the slow one here... or if it's a thing that I never really cared a lot about Jon Snow and his origin... or that it is indeed a thing that took readers a long time to figure out... but either way: it makes a lot of sense.

I went back to the wiki to read more about Lyanna and what happened when Ned went for her... the bath of blood she was on, the screams, and the last promise... including the little Ned say he remembers of all that. She giving birth at that moment seems accurate with the clues we dispose and finally I do belive in one of the theories people have posted on the forum... yay! To be honest, I'm one of those people that always belive others over-interpretate a lot of things to fix them on what they desire or dream that could happen... but on the case of R+L=J things seem more logical and smooth.

Either way. In this case, Jon has less chances of being the lord of Winterfell, since he's the bastard of Lyanna instead of Ned, and Ned's children have more rights of Winterfell than Jon. At the same time, from the Targ bloodline, Aegon (his half brother) still has more rights of the IT than Jon for being consumed on marriage. So in the end.... R+L=J doesn't give Jon more than what he already has? Just hopes of him being one of the 3 heads of the dragon of Daenery's prophecy?... In which case, Jon + Aegon + Dany = 3 heads of the dragon?

Welcome to the thread, Rrachel! R+L=J does make a lot of sense, doesn't it? It's definitely more than just a "crackpot" theory - a category that many fan ideas fall into these days (sometimes intentionally). You're right that the RLJ solution doesn't necessarily imply anything in particular about Jon's inheritance rights or political claims. If it's correct, then it very well could have implications in terms of prophetic fulfillment or magic... Martin's on record for saying that he intends the role and amount of magic to increase in each book, so perhaps that's something to keep an eye on moving forward.

On the other hand, while RLJ makes a certain amount of sense... there are also significant limits to our ability to verify the theory. Martin provides just enough information for the attentive reader to infer that Jon might be the son of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen... yet he never provides enough to be certain. And there's no direct evidence provided whatsoever. So those of us who want to know more about Lyanna and Rhaegar's relationship -- how it might have played out, how it might fit into the larger narrative... are inevitably left to use our own imaginations to fill in the gaps. If you ask me, it's a brilliant piece of writing (or non-writing) by Martin - by leaving that gap in his text, he pushes his audience beyond reading and invites us to become co-participants in the telling of his story. Depending on what you find plausible or attractive in a story, you may find yourself drawn to different versions of the theory discussed in these threads.

What I find most intriguing, however... is that Martin continues to preserve the gap. Five books in, and in spite of continuous fan speculation and questions on the topic... Martin is still withholding Lyanna's story, and provides no direct evidence at all that Rhaegar and Lyanna were lovers. So for as much sense as R+L=J seems to make, we still must wonder: what is Martin protecting, that might turn this entire theory on its head? What other solutions might we find, if we accept RLJ for the elegant, but limited, answer that it is... and continue to examine other options?

I must say that I am constantly impressed by Martin's talent for puzzle-building and mystery-writing. And in my view, the question of Jon's parentage is one place where that talent continues to shine! :)

Glad to have you in the conversation!

[sj4iy]

There is no indication anywhere that Rhaegar travelled alone. We are told that Rhaegar always travels with his sworn swords, who we find out are Whent and Dayne.

And yet we have absolutely no evidence that Dayne or Whent or Hightower accompanied him back to KL.

Might as well say the flying spaghetti monster escorted Rhaegar to King's Landing, as say he travelled alone.

The same logic could be applied to saying that he traveled WITH the KG because there's no evidence he did so at this time.

[MtnLion]

What the hell are you talking about? Robert was THE king. Every Lord Paramount had declared for him at this point, and he smashed Dorne into submission at the Trident so they couldn't oppose him either and never tried to do so (Oberyn tried, but Doran is ruler of Dorne, not Oberyn). Robert didn't just name himself king, the entire realm proclaimed him king.

And, the Kingsguard at the tower label Robert usurper. Robert, himself, knows that fifteen years later there are those who call him usurper. The war is not over if anyone still resists, and there seems to be some open resistance, at least at Dragonstone. It was the storm that sank the fleet at Dragonstone that doomed Viserys to being the beggar king.

[MtnLion]

And yet we have absolutely no evidence that Dayne or Whent or Hightower accompanied him back to KL.

The same logic could be applied to saying that he traveled WITH the KG because there's no evidence he did so at this time.

We know that he always travels with his sworn shields. That is given. It makes sense that he would during a fucking war.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

And yet we have absolutely no evidence that Dayne or Whent or Hightower accompanied him back to KL.

Agreed.

While Rhaegar normally travelled with KG, Lyanna's disappearance is obviously not a normal circumstance.. Taking Whent and Dayne (or just one of the two) with him, would present some danger... If they were discovered by Aerys' men outside of the city, the KG would have been escorted back to Aerys, where they would be honour bound to tell what they had been doing, and where Lyanna was.

Rhaegar did not go into the Riverlands with just Dayne and Whent.. were they the only two to remain by the time Lyanna went missing? We don't know.

Hightower went to find Rhaegar. Was he alone? We don't know. It's possible, but it's just as possible that he came with a few more men (in case they got caught up in fighting).