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R+L=J v.120


MtnLion

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That is the only way it makes sense. They stay at the ToJ initially because Rhaegar ordered them to. He's alive, Aerys is alive, and other qualified protection is available. You are saying 3 shining examples of Kings Gaurdom to the world hold a dead man's orders above protecting the king?

Except they had no king at that point. Robert had usurped the throne and the Seven Kingdoms had accepted him as the new king. Any Targaryen no longer had any claim to the throne, so the only reason why Ned could believe that they were still great knights, is if they swore a vow to do something other than protect the king, and died doing it.

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Except they had no king at that point. Robert had usurped the throne and the Seven Kingdoms had accepted him as the new king. Any Targaryen no longer had any claim to the throne, so the only reason why Ned could believe that they were still great knights, is if they swore a vow to do something other than protect the king, and died doing it.

Of course they do. Just because Robert has usurped the throne doesn't mean that they accept his claim (note how they call him the Usurper, not King), or that they no longer recognise any Targaryen claim. For them, the Targaryen Kingsguard, the only true king is the next Targaryen heir. That is Viserys, or someone ahead of him in the line of succession (the only real possibility of which is a legitimate Jon).

If they, the Targaryen Kingsguard, abandoned their rightful King (Viserys) just because their cause was difficult, then Ned is not going to be claiming these men as great Kingsguards, shining examples to the world.

Forsaking a prime vow like that of the Kingsguard, while publically and defiantly announcing their status as kingsguard, is not going to earn them 'great knight' status under any conditions, even dying for another vow.

Abandoning their KG status in favour of something 'higher', and dying for it, that might be respect-worthy, for the right goal. But they stated outright to Ned's face that they were Kingsguard, because it mattered. They hadn't abandoned that status or duty.

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Of course they do. Just because Robert has usurped the throne doesn't mean that they accept his claim (note how they call him the Usurper, not King), or that they no longer recognise any Targaryen claim. For them, the Targaryen Kingsguard, the only true king is the next Targaryen heir. That is Viserys, or someone ahead of him in the line of succession (the only real possibility of which is a legitimate Jon).

If they, the Targaryen Kingsguard, abandoned their rightful King (Viserys) just because their cause was difficult, then Ned is not going to be claiming these men as great Kingsguards, shining examples to the world.

Forsaking a prime vow like that of the Kingsguard, while publically and defiantly announcing their status as kingsguard, is not going to earn them 'great knight' status under any conditions, even dying for another vow.

Abandoning their KG status in favour of something 'higher', and dying for it, that might be respect-worthy, for the right goal. But they stated outright to Ned's face that they were Kingsguard, because it mattered. They hadn't abandoned that status or duty.

Really, how much clearer do some people need it? Will a different colour or a bigger font help?

Why is it always versus? They're not mutually exclusive.

The Kingsguard vow does not forbid them from fleeing, it forbids them from putting their safety above the safety of the king. There's nothing to say they can't flee WITH the king, and indeed there are times when Kingsguards have done exactly that.

They are mutually exclusive if the objects are at different locations, and if they are at the same location, obey is unnecessary because the primary duty to protect the king takes precedence, anyway.

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And that covers the staying there just fine.

What I have yet to see is anyone present a remotely plausible argument as to why they would STAY there after finding this out. There is a clear heir in need of protection, with NO Kingsguard presence. Instead of sending at least one person to him, they continue to follow the orders of a dead crown prince, whose order-giving authority extended from a now dead king. Then, whenever Ned learns the complete situation, whatever it is, he considers them shining examples to the rest of the world.

Here you go:

RHAEGAR: "Arthur, Ozzie, Gerald... listen closely. I'm headed north, but I will return. You are to remain at the tower of joy. Under no circumstances are you to leave your post. Do you understand? None. This is most important."

ARTHUR: "And if you should not return?"

RHAEGAR: "You may hear that I have been killed, or that the rebel forces have won. You may believe that you are needed elsewhere. But unless and until I return for you myself, then under NO circumstances are you to leave your post at the tower of joy. Period. Is that understood?"

GERALD: "Surely if the worst should happen, at least one of us could..."

RHAEGAR: "Ger-aaaald... I want your word on this, as Kingsguard knights. All of you."

KG3 (reluctantly): "Fine. We swear it."

OZZIE (under his breath): "Damned, prophecy-obsessed fool of a prince... SMH."

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Because 'A Dream of Spring" is not a likely name for a book that is meant to conclude a series...

A Dream of Spring sounds like the story is a long way from resolution, the situation is desperate, but there is hope...

--

You regulars on this board crack me up... maybe try thinking about my post before responding in such a shallow way...

:rolleyes:

If that's your whole argument then it's no wonder we don't take your stuff more seriously.

Really? Just because you don't like the title GRRM chose? You think it means an entire new series? Okay then

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Here you go:RHAEGAR: "Arthur, Ozzie, Gerald... listen closely. I'm headed north, but I will return. You are to remain at the tower of joy. Under no circumstances are you to leave your post. Do you understand? None. This is most important."ARTHUR: "And if you should not return?"RHAEGAR: "You may hear that I have been killed, or that the rebel forces have won. You may believe that you are needed elsewhere. But unless and until I return for you myself, then under NO circumstances are you to leave your post at the tower of joy. Period. Is that understood?"

GERALD: "Surely if the worst should happen, at least one of us could..."

RHAEGAR: "Ger-aaaald... I want your word on this, as Kingsguard knights. All of you."KG3 (reluctantly): "Fine. We swear it."OZZIE (under his breath): "Damned, prophecy-obsessed fool of a prince... SMH."

That would lead to circumstances where they could never leave, even years after Rhaegar was dead.

It is more likely that the order was along these lines. "Your number one priority now is to guard Lyanna. All three of you, all of the time. If something happens to me, whatever you do, make sure she does not fall into the rebels' hands. Now, swear it."

This explains why all three stayed at the tower, away from the king (first Aerys, later Viserys). It also gives them some freedom to go join other loyalist forces if the situation changes, provided Lyanna is healthy enough to be moved.

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Wait, wait."A Dream of Spring"...in a series in which bad guys are directly connected to winter, and 'spring' would be reasonably construed as meaning the END of said series because winter would be over...Is now being unreasonably construed as the start point of a SECOND HALF of a 10-part series because "it sounds like Star Wars"?Why use logic and facts when you can make completely random correlations to press your point?

How are you not catching all the subtle Star Wars clues on the show?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wv230Vc_nHE

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=73V1eBm0fgY

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Here you go:

RHAEGAR: "Arthur, Ozzie, Gerald... listen closely. I'm headed north, but I will return. You are to remain at the tower of joy. Under no circumstances are you to leave your post. Do you understand? None. This is most important."

ARTHUR: "And if you should not return?"

RHAEGAR: "You may hear that I have been killed, or that the rebel forces have won. You may believe that you are needed elsewhere. But unless and until I return for you myself, then under NO circumstances are you to leave your post at the tower of joy. Period. Is that understood?"

GERALD: "Surely if the worst should happen, at least one of us could..."

RHAEGAR: "Ger-aaaald... I want your word on this, as Kingsguard knights. All of you."

KG3 (reluctantly): "Fine. We swear it."

OZZIE (under his breath): "Damned, prophecy-obsessed fool of a prince... SMH."

Doesn't explain why ALL THREE stayed to guard the tower instead of at least one going to Viserys when they heard he had gone to Dragonstone.

Nor does it explain just why Hightower stayed when he was not a close friend of Rhaegar like Dayne and Whent. He wouldn't have sworn a vow to Rhaegar under any circumstances, because Rhaegar was NOT his king. He's the LC of the KG, a hardass for doing his duty, and the one who says "We swore a vow". He went to fetch Rhaegar for Aerys- surely that would have entailed COMING BACK WITH HIM. And if he had heard about Viserys being without KG protection, you can be damn sure he would have found a way to protect him, as that was his duty.

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Time again for:

Rhaegar: Guards, make sure Lyanna doesn't leave this room until I come and get her.

Gerold: Not to leave the room... even if you come and get her.

Arthur: [hiccups]

Rhaegar: No, no. *Until* I come and get her.

Gerold: Until you come and get her, we're not to enter the room.

Rhaegar: No, no, no. You *stay* in the room, and make sure *she* doesn't leave.

Gerold: And you'll come and get her.

Arthur: [hiccups]

Rhaegar: Right.

Gerold: We don't need to do anything, apart from just stop her entering the room.

Rhaegar: No, no. *Leaving* the room.

Gerold: Leaving the room, yes.

Rhaegar: All right?

Arthur: [hiccups]

Gerold: Right. Oh, if, if, if, uh, if, if, uh, if, if, if, we... oh, if... oh...

Rhaegar: Look, it's quite simple. You just stay here, and make sure she doesn't leave the room. All right?

Arthur: [hiccups]

Gerold: Oh, I remember, uh, can she leave the room with us?

Rhaegar: No, no, no, no, you just keep her in here, and make sure...

Gerold: Oh yeah, we'll keep her in here, obviously, but if she had to leave, and we were with her...

Rhaegar: No, just keep her in here...

Gerold: Until you, or anyone else...

Rhaegar: No, not anyone else. Just me.

Gerold: Just you.

Arthur: [hiccups]

Rhaegar: Get back.

Gerold: Get back.

Rhaegar: All right?

Gerold: Right, we'll stay here until you get back.

Rhaegar: And make sure she doesn't leave.

Gerold: What?

Rhaegar: Make sure she doesn't leave.

Gerold: Lyanna?

Rhaegar: Yes, make sure she doesn't leave.

Gerold: Oh, yes, of course.

[Points at Arthur]

Gerold: I thought you meant him. You know, it seemed a bit daft me I were to guard him when he's a guard.

Rhaegar: Is that clear?

Arthur: [hiccups]

Gerold: Oh, quite clear. No problems.

Rhaegar: Right.

[Rhaegar turns to leave the room, both guards follow him]

Rhaegar: Where are you going?

Gerold: We're coming with you.

Rhaegar: No, no, no. I want you to stay here and make sure *she* doesn't leave.

Gerold: Oh, I see. Right.

Oswell: What if she has a son?

Random Squire: WHAT ABOUT A POINTED STICK?

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Yes. Well done, indeed. :cheers:

(Ought to be a few Eddie Izzard, Dressed to Kill, scenes somewhere in these books as well, methinks... :cool4: )

"You say 'erb and we say Herb because...there's a fucking H in it"

I suddenly really need Dany landing in Westeros, being met by fAegon with, "do you have a flag?"

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Why did all 3 KG stay behind when Rhaegar rode to King's Landing and to war? They were following orders. They swore to obey and so they did while their king was in King's Landing. They did not stay away to protect a king.

(Moved from the last thread because...)

Rhaegar was at the tower when Hightower found him and told him that he was commanded by his father to return to King's Landing. Rhaegar, Whent and Dayne (Rhaegar never travels without his sworn swords, Whent and Dayne, especially through enemy territory during a civil war) saddle up and tell Hightower that Lady Lyanna is royal family. Hightower is obliged to stay at the tower and protect the royal family. get it?

Now, when Rhaegar reaches King's Landing he sends his bodyguards back to the tower to protect the royal family while he marches off to war. This prevents the presence of Whent and Dayne from being detected and relayed to the king, who can command them to reveal Rhaegar's secrets.

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"You say 'erb and we say Herb because...there's a fucking H in it"



I suddenly really need Dany landing in Westeros, being met by fAegon with, "do you have a flag?"







The Targs stole countries! That’s how they built their empire… they stole countries with the cunning use of flags! Just sail around the world and stick a flag in:



“I claim Westeros for House Targaryen!”



And they’re going: “You can’t claim us, we live here! There are five hundred million of us!”



“Do you have a flag?”



“We don’t need a bloody flag! This is our country, you bastards!”



“No flag, no country. You can’t have one. That’s the rules… that I’ve just made up. And I’m backing it up with this dragon… that was lent from the Valyrian Rifle Association.”



:lol:


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Not really sure the point of arguing the KG were only there to Obey. Clearly the KG are glorified body guards of the King. As others have pointed out several times their "First" duty is to protect the King. That doesn't mean they don't have other duties as KG, but it does mean there is a priority to those duties. It is completely illogical to assume that they remained at the tower because a prince told them to stay there and that they would ignore the new Targaren heir who was undefended.



It makes no sense for the KG to be guarding a tower if their "First" duty is being neglected. They should have sent at least one of the three to protect Viserys.



The only other reason they were there and not with Viserys is because they wanted to die in honorable combat. With Aerys and Rhaegar dead they had no King left to protect because throne had been taken by Robert. So essentially they weren't willing to flee, but they were not willing to support usuper like Barristan did. Death was preferable. This was actually how I had taken that TOJ sequence when I first read the series and hadn't read the R+L=J theory. I think this is unlikely based on all the other evidence provided in the books.


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Not really sure the point of arguing the KG were only there to Obey. Clearly the KG are glorified body guards of the King. As others have pointed out several times their "First" duty is to protect the King. That doesn't mean they don't have other duties as KG, but it does mean there is a priority to those duties. It is completely illogical to assume that they remained at the tower because a prince told them to stay there and that they would ignore the new Targaren heir who was undefended.

It makes no sense for the KG to be guarding a tower if their "First" duty is being neglected. They should have sent at least one of the three to protect Viserys.

The only other reason they were there and not with Viserys is because they wanted to die in honorable combat. With Aerys and Rhaegar dead they had no King left to protect because throne had been taken by Robert. So essentially they weren't willing to flee, but they were not willing to support usuper like Barristan did. Death was preferable. This was actually how I had taken that TOJ sequence when I first read the series and hadn't read the R+L=J theory. I think this is unlikely based on all the other evidence provided in the books.

:thumbsup:

I had actually never thought about the idea of them wanting to die in honorable combat as a way of defying the new regime.

When I first read it, that's when I figured out that Jon was up in that tower. But I didn't think he was legitimate...like others, I had thought that the KG were ordered to stay there. But that's before I really understood the political structure of the monarchy, and that Viserys was the new Targaryen heir. So when I reread it with that in mind, it suddenly didn't make much sense that they would stay there guarding a bastard while leaving the new king without KG protection. That's when I started to think that perhaps Jon was actually legitimate.

Does anyone else remember how they first interpreted that scene?

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