Disillusioned with Targaryens (Rhaenys as an adulteress)

[sj4iy]

OT, but your sig reminded me of Michael Moore's comment about the Sony hack, telling that now they hackers run HW, "fewer Michael Bay movies and no more Transformers". :lol:

Team America was before its time XD

[Amris]

I don't really get what the disconcertment in the OP is about - or rather I suspect I may get it but I can't believe it. I even am seriously considering whether the OP was meant as pure trolling.

It might be actually and I might be falling for it :P

Is the OP meant to complain about Rhaenys alleged infidelity and that said alleged infidelity (may) have caused a 'thinning' of the Targaryen 'bloodline'? I mean: REALLY?

If so then - WOW.

I mean that's a line of thinking I have problems wrapping my mind around.

Because this thinking would assume that other 'bloodlines' (say those of Rhaenys' alleged lovers who may or may not be the father of Aenys) are somehow 'inferior' to Targaryen 'bloodlines'.

Or that Daario's 'bloodline' was somehow inferior to Jon's.

That's just - ah - nuts. Sorry. But no other word to call it. Except racist maybe.

What does it matter if Daenerys is 30% or 15% or 1,5% Targaryen 'blood'? Does that make her another person? Does that make her more or less competent? Does that make the deeds of her Targaryen (or other) ancesters one bit less evil or good or mad? Does that make the feat of mounting a fire-breathing dragon one bit less impressive?

It doesn't change one little bit. She is who she is, regardless of her 'blood'.

The ONLY thing it changes is perception - because in the series GRRM has created a world in which names and families and genealogies are taken incredibly (and stupidly from a modern perspective) seriously and 'bastards' are looked down on. Thus pretenses (about 'faithfulness' and 'chastity') are being kept up at all times - even though GRRM shows us time and again that REALITY in his world is very different - that people do 'sleep around' occasionally (and why not really?), that a lot of characters' genealogy might be quite different from what their parents have told them. It is a world of double standards. In fact I think that is one of the underlying main topics of the series.

But why this would be a reason to get 'disillusioned' with the Targs is beyond me. As beyond as the question why one would be 'illusioned' with them in the first place.

If anything Rhaenys alleged taking of lovers seems like a healthy thing to me. I mean: Her own brother as lover and father of her son? Really? I mean: Kinky, sure. But it kind of doesn't sound very healthy, does it?

[Viserys - The last dragon]

So it all comes down to trusting the honor of an adulteress. That's a relief.

Haha, you americans :)

--

I do however agree with much of what you're saying. I was just thinking about the genes part, the other day.

We do however not have any proof of Rhaenys cuckolding her older brother- does not make sense when its so easy to avoid.

[SeanF]

In response to the O/P's point about sibling rivalry, Visenya clearly loved Rhaenys dearly. She built the Sept of Remembrane after she died and torched Dorne.

But, Rhaenys died before any conflict could have developed over which of their sons would be King.

[Mithras]

If this (i.e. Rhaenys committing adultery) is such a baseless rumor, then who produced it and why? And why did Yandel mention it? Where did he get this idea from?

[teemo]

In response to the O/P's point about sibling rivalry, Visenya clearly loved Rhaenys dearly. She built the Sept of Remembrane after she died and torched Dorne.

But, Rhaenys died before any conflict could have developed over which of their sons would be King.

How can you love someone so much yet kill their son and support Maegor's decision to kill two of her grandsons? It just doesn't sound very loving to me.

[Gallivant]

I don't really get what the disconcertment in the OP is about - or rather I suspect I may get it but I can't believe it. I even am seriously considering whether the OP was meant as pure trolling.

It might be actually and I might be falling for it :P

Is the OP meant to complain about Rhaenys alleged infidelity and that said alleged infidelity (may) have caused a 'thinning' of the Targaryen 'bloodline'? I mean: REALLY?

If so then - WOW.

I mean that's a line of thinking I have problems wrapping my mind around.

Because this thinking would assume that other 'bloodlines' (say those of Rhaenys' alleged lovers who may or may not be the father of Aenys) are somehow 'inferior' to Targaryen 'bloodlines'.

Or that Daario's 'bloodline' was somehow inferior to Jon's.

That's just - ah - nuts. Sorry. But no other word to call it. Except racist maybe.

What does it matter if Daenerys is 30% or 15% or 1,5% Targaryen 'blood'? Does that make her another person? Does that make her more or less competent? Does that make the deeds of her Targaryen (or other) ancesters one bit less evil or good or mad? Does that make the feat of mounting a fire-breathing dragon one bit less impressive?

It doesn't change one little bit. She is who she is, regardless of her 'blood'.

The ONLY thing it changes is perception - because in the series GRRM has created a world in which names and families and genealogies are taken incredibly (and stupidly from a modern perspective) seriously and 'bastards' are looked down on. Thus pretenses (about 'faithfulness' and 'chastity') are being kept up at all times - even though GRRM shows us time and again that REALITY in his world is very different - that people do 'sleep around' occasionally (and why not really?), that a lot of characters' genealogy might be quite different from what their parents have told them. It is a world of double standards. In fact I think that is one of the underlying main topics of the series.

But why this would be a reason to get 'disillusioned' with the Targs is beyond me. As beyond as the question why one would be 'illusioned' with them in the first place.

If anything Rhaenys alleged taking of lovers seems like a healthy thing to me. I mean: Her own brother as lover and father of her son? Really? I mean: Kinky, sure. But it kind of doesn't sound very healthy, does it?

Completely agree with you here!! All this talk about bloodline 'purity' is a bit too "Slytherin" for my liking.

If anything GRRM is deliberately debunking the whole notion of pure bloodlines and showing that the Targaryens - like all 'bloodlines' - are as bastardized and mixed up as everybody else. There's nothing 'special' about a supposedly Royal bloodline. That's true throughout history and clearly true in GRRM's fictional universe too.

[MyLittleFinger]

Black or Red or White all over, a Dragon is still a Dragon.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

The OP left me feeling rather disgusted to be frank.

So many levels of disturbance. :stillsick:

Also did it not occur to these people that try to qualify a Targaryen on the quantity of Targ blood they have that Visenya, Aegon and Rhaenys are only "half" Targ in the first place ? Their mother was a Valeryion, for crying out loud. lord only knows how many previous generations of Targaryens married Valeryions and Valeryions married Targs too so does that mean they are not really Valeryions any more based on having 0.000000056% original Valeryion blood

The whole thing is dam ludicrous.

And the dodgy overtones of the OP just leave me feeling pissed off ( But I rather think that was the aim)

[SeanF]

How can you love someone so much yet kill their son and support Maegor's decision to kill two of her grandsons? It just doesn't sound very loving to me.

Loving Rhaenys doesn't mean loving her son, 30 years later.

If Visenya killed Aenys (by no means certain) then it was "business, not personal" (in mafia terms). He threatened to destroy the dynasty, through his incompetence.

IIRC, she was dead before Maegor killed the grandchildren.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

The OP left me feeling rather disgusted to be frank.

So many levels of disturbance. :stillsick:

Also did it not occur to these people that try to qualify a Targaryen on the quantity of Targ blood they have that Visenya, Aegon and Rhaenys are only "half" Targ in the first place ? Their mother was a Valeryion, for crying out loud. lord only knows how many previous generations of Targaryens married Valeryions and Valeryions married Targs too so does that mean they are not really Valeryions any more based on having 0.000000056% original Valeryion blood

The whole thing is dam ludicrous.

And the dodgy overtones of the OP just leave me feeling pissed off ( But I rather think that was the aim)

Well, Aegon and his sister's Velaryon mother had a Targaryen mother herself. The other points are spot on, though

IIRC, she was dead before Maegor killed the grandchildren.

Visenya died a year after Aegon 1.5 was killed, although that was in battle, not outright murder as such. Viserys was murdered after Visenya's death, though, as it was partly done in retaliation for Alyssa absconding from Dragonstone with her other children and Dark Sister after Visenya's death.

[teemo]

Loving Rhaenys doesn't mean loving her son, 30 years later.

If Visenya killed Aenys (by no means certain) then it was "business, not personal" (in mafia terms). He threatened to destroy the dynasty, through his incompetence.

IIRC, she was dead before Maegor killed the grandchildren.

I guess I just don't perceive love the same way you do.

[David Selig]

When you have two wives, you lose any right to complain if one of them is cheating on you. Pretty simple. :cool4:

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Well, Aegon and his sister's Velaryon mother had a Targaryen mother herself. The other points are spot on, though

And that is my point. no family is "pure" blooded. as at some point everyone had to marry outside the family no one can guarantee at least one son and one daughter each generation. So at some point someone has to marry someone else. At this point the Valaryons are as much targaryen as the Targaryens are! lol, and vice versa. This is why assessing a characters targness based upon blood percentage is ludicrous. Not least because that is not how genetics works.

[SeanF]

I guess I just don't perceive love the same way you do.

I'd like to know more about Visenya. My perception of her is that she had very few qualms about doing what needed to be done, however dark. I expect it was she who vetted, and hired, assassins to go after the Dornish, and anyone else who was a threat to the regime.

Rhaenys died before their respective sons became rivals for the Iron Throne. Had Rhaenys lived, perhaps they would have become enemies.

[ummester]

Face it, Valyrians (and therefore Targs) are pretty fucked up. They may be the most distasteful thing in the entire saga, conquering, tyrannical, imperialist, incestuous slavers that, theoretically, should be smart enough to behave better.

From show to books to TWoIaF my opinion of Valyrian's has gone down and down - it's like GRRM wanted to roll all the worst bits of Ancient Egyptians and Romans into one culture and then give them dragons to boot.

[Salafi Stannis]

So fucking what if she was an adultress, since when did we become bible thumping octogenarians?

[SeanF]

Face it, Valyrians (and therefore Targs) are pretty fucked up. They may be the most distasteful thing in the entire saga, conquering, tyrannical, imperialist, incestuous slavers that, theoretically, should be smart enough to behave better.

From show to books to TWoIaF my opinion of Valyrian's has gone down and down - it's like GRRM wanted to roll all the worst bits of Ancient Egyptians and Romans into one culture and then give them dragons to boot.

The Valyrian Freehold was based on cruelty and oppression, for all of its brilliance.

[naseridrl]

It's not like she tried to pass of a non Targ as a Targ he was a Targs through her no matter who his father may have been. Plus of the three I'd like to be descended from Aegon the least. So I'd be happy if she did enjoy herself away from him. She may have been his favourite but her opinion on the matter may have been very different.

[Gallivant]

Face it, Valyrians (and therefore Targs) are pretty fucked up. They may be the most distasteful thing in the entire saga, conquering, tyrannical, imperialist, incestuous slavers that, theoretically, should be smart enough to behave better.

From show to books to TWoIaF my opinion of Valyrian's has gone down and down - it's like GRRM wanted to roll all the worst bits of Ancient Egyptians and Romans into one culture and then give them dragons to boot.

Well-said! Though, in fairness, their soap operaesque dramatics are fun to read.