Disillusioned with Targaryens (Rhaenys as an adulteress)

[Til]

Oh really? So, you're a firm believer that Laenor was really the father of Rhaenyra's children?

We don't even know if Corlys was Addam's father, but even if he was... how does that help your case? Corlys was not a dragonrider. The Velaryons were not dragonriders. Laena and Laenor were - but they had Rhaenys Targaryen for mother.

I believe it's mentioned that Corlys is part Targaryen, owing either to an immediate ancestor or a more distant one. Either way, the Velaryons had been intermarrying with the Targs for centuries by that point. Corlys definitely had some dragonblood in him.

[Forever May]

Who cares? They are certainly descended from Aegon's sister. That's a very close relation, Aenys shared a lot of genetic material with him even if he was not his biological father.

Well I do, obviously. And perhaps disenchanted is a better word for what I was talking about (in the title, so on). It's just, when Dany says, "I am the blood and seed of Aegon the Conqueror." Don't you think it takes the bite out of it if she said the truth, "I am the blood and seed of some random bard."

I like the way Martin writes his books, I really do. I don't mean I am after a fairy tale with pretty princesses and gallant knights. But there is a lot of weight behind the Targaryen blood in the books. I just don't get why he undermined that with a few cheap sentences. Does this really not disenchant you too?

And why is it that important for them to be descended from Aegon, specifically? Rhaenys and Visenya had equally big roles in the conquest, and most likely in the ruling as well. They were a great conquering trio and worked perfectly together as warriors and rulers and diplomats, whatever their personal relations were. The Westerosi just like to focus on Aegon exclusively because they live in a sexist patriarchal culture.

Well I can't speak for all of Westeros (obviously, at least until I find a way to get inside Martin's head and control his thoughts), but for me it is less about having to descend from Aegon and more about not descending from a lowborn bard. The ideal case would've been, Visenya had a daughter by Aegon, whilst Rhaenys had a son by him. Then daughter and son wed and the bloodline then descended from all three. It's a shame they weren't a more fertile lot or that would've been the case, I imagine.

We always knew that they were not descended from Visenya, because Maegor didn't have living descendants - did anyone have a huge problem with that? So, if you don't have a problem with them not being descended from Visenya, why throw a fit over them not perhaps being descended from Aegon? They're definitely descended from Rhaenys. That should be enough. In normal dynasties and families, people are descended from just one sibling, anyway, not two of them. Nobody is disappointed that Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Rickon and Jon are descended only from Ned or only from Lyanna, rather than being a fruit of incest between Ned and Lyanna.

Yes but the House is carried in the male line, not the female.

[Forever May]

I think it's a bit pointless to debate how genetics work in ASOIAF, when it's already clear that they work based on how best fits the story.

Yes. I also don't know why they're discussing genetics. And I think the mother and father DNA is equally important anyway. In real life, people share both looks and behavioral patterns from both parents, so what are they talking about? Have they actually identified the piece of DNA responsible for dragon riding and determined only the mother carries it? I'm skeptical about that.

[Aemond's Eye]

Yes. I also don't know why they're discussing genetics. And I think the mother and father DNA is equally important anyway. In real life, people share both looks and behavioral patterns from both parents, so what are they talking about? Have they actually identified the piece of DNA responsible for dragon riding and determined only the mother carries it? I'm skeptical about that.

There's not been anything confirmed about how that works, or how genetics in this fictional universe work overall. If sorcery was involved in the Targaryens binding a specific line of dragons to them, then I doubt it matters whether your Targaryen lineage is paternal or maternal - magic isn't really scientific in that application. I think it's more to do with something in the blood, rather than being passed down from paternal or maternal lines.

[Forever May]

Well thing explains, their incest. It seems to suggest that the concentration of dragon blood is important. Not just having a distant Targaryen ancestor, but literally your percentage (from both mama and father). Otherwise, what's the deal with incest, where did it come from? That's what I have always assumed and what I thought we were supposed to assume. It is the most logical reason for incest.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Well I do, obviously. And perhaps disenchanted is a better word for what I was talking about (in the title, so on). It's just, when Dany says, "I am the blood and seed of Aegon the Conqueror." Don't you think it takes the bite out of it if she said the truth, "I am the blood and seed of some random bard."

She is still the blood of Aegon.

[Aemond's Eye]

Well thing explains, their incest. It seems to suggest that the concentration of dragon blood is important. Not just having a distant Targaryen ancestor, but literally your percentage (from both mama and father). Otherwise, what's the deal with incest, where did it come from? That's what I have always assumed and what I thought we were supposed to assume. It is the most logical reason for incest.

It seems to be implied, aye. It's not a coincidence that the Targaryens approached marriage began to change after Aegon III and Viserys II gave up hope of bringing the dragons back.

[Skinner]

She is still the blood of Aegon.

Not if Aenys was sired off some random bard...

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Not if Aenys was sired off some random bard...

Aegon's blood didn't spontaneously appeared inside his body. He got his genes from his parents, which happened to be Rhaenys' parents as well. They have the same blood.

Magical genetics aren't math. The fact that two parents are Targaryen dosn't make the offspring twice the Targaryen. It just meant that the kid has more chances to have dragon blood. Aegon himself doesn't come from two Targs, yet no one doubts he's a fully Targaryen person.

[The silver dragon]

Aegon's blood didn't spontaneously appeared inside his body. He got his genes from his parents, which happened to be Rhaenys' parents as well. They have the same blood.

Magical genetics aren't math. The fact that two parents are Targaryen dosn't make the offspring twice the Targaryen. It just meant that the kid has more chances to have dragon blood. Aegon himself doesn't come from two Targs, yet no one doubts he's a fully Targaryen person.

he comes from 75% targaryen.

[Annara Snow]

I believe it's mentioned that Corlys is part Targaryen, owing either to an immediate ancestor or a more distant one. Either way, the Velaryons had been intermarrying with the Targs for centuries by that point. Corlys definitely had some dragonblood in him.

So why was Corlys not a dragonrider? Furthermore, if he's a Targaryen on the side of one of his female ancestors... again, how does that help your argument?

It's really obvious that he "dragonriding gene" comes from either mother or father.

[Annara Snow]

Not if Aenys was sired off some random bard...

Yes, if Aenys was sired by some random bard, he's still the blood of Aegon the Conqueror, who is his uncle either way.

Just like Jon Snow is "the blood" of Ned Stark, in Ned's own words.

[Annara Snow]

Well I do, obviously. And perhaps disenchanted is a better word for what I was talking about (in the title, so on). It's just, when Dany says, "I am the blood and seed of Aegon the Conqueror." Don't you think it takes the bite out of it if she said the truth, "I am the blood and seed of some random bard."

I like the way Martin writes his books, I really do. I don't mean I am after a fairy tale with pretty princesses and gallant knights. But there is a lot of weight behind the Targaryen blood in the books. I just don't get why he undermined that with a few cheap sentences. Does this really not disenchant you too?

Well I can't speak for all of Westeros (obviously, at least until I find a way to get inside Martin's head and control his thoughts), but for me it is less about having to descend from Aegon and more about not descending from a lowborn bard. The ideal case would've been, Visenya had a daughter by Aegon, whilst Rhaenys had a son by him. Then daughter and son wed and the bloodline then descended from all three. It's a shame they weren't a more fertile lot or that would've been the case, I imagine.

Yes, I'm always disenchanted when there's not enough incest and interbreeding in ASOAIF. Thank God for Jamie and Cersei. And Craster. That man sure took care of his blood not getting diluted.

Yes but the House is carried in the male line, not the female.

Dorne says hi.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Oh really? So, you're a firm believer that Laenor was really the father of Rhaenyra's children?

We don't even know if Corlys was Addam's father, but even if he was... how does that help your case? Corlys was not a dragonrider. The Velaryons were not dragonriders. Laena and Laenor were - but they had Rhaenys Targaryen for mother.

And this is exactly why you can't say "it's all because of the mother DNA" or "it's all because of the father DNA".

[Maid So Fair]

Maid so fair

Yes of bloody course

It is just that the poster was carrying on about dilution of blood etc. Not the case for mitochondrial DNA (which is pretty bloody important as it allows living and breathing.

Also NOT the case for male/male/male descent whereby the Y chromosome MUST remain the same father to son

Fair enough. But I feel that thinking that the dragon riding gene is passed through mitochondrial DNA is quite a big assumption.

[Annara Snow]

And this is exactly why you can't say "it's all because of the mother DNA" or "it's all because of the father DNA".

Yes, exactly. There are examples of dragonriders who could have only gotten it from the mother, or from the father (Aegon II/Haelena/Aemond/Daeron).

[Aemond's Eye]

Yes, exactly. There are examples of dragonriders who could have only gotten it from the mother, or from the father (Aegon II/Haelena/Aemond/Daeron).

And in Addam's case we know that his likely father (Corlys) never claimed a dragon, while his legally recognised father (Laenor) did. And that Alyn failed. (In theory their mother could have some Targaryen ancestry too.) It's possible that whatever allows them to claim a dragon can be dormant for a generation - but really, we don't know how it works. It just seems that it must have something to do with Targaryen 'blood'.

[The silver dragon]

Yes, I'm always disenchanted when there's not enough incest and interbreeding in ASOAIF. Thank God for Jamie and Cersei. And Craster. That man sure took care of his blood not getting diluted.

Dorne says hi.

when said blood line is magical, it probably important that you inbreed.

after all was it not because of dany blood that she manged to hatch dragons?

[Lord Varys]

Actually, we don't know whether Corlys was a dragonrider in his youth, or even whether his children were the first Velaryon dragonriders. I'd not be surprised if Alyssa Velaryon was a dragonrider, too.

It is confirmed that Corlys must have had an immediate Targaryen ancestor, as it is stated that Laenor had the blood of the dragon on both sides, and this is mentioned when Gyldayn discusses his features - I'm not sure this would have come up if Corlys' Targaryen ancestor was his great-great-great-grandmother from before the Conquest or something like that (for instance, if he was descended from Valaena Velaryon's Targaryen mother). It is also not clear if Alyssa Velaryon had a Targaryen mother - if that was the case, then she could have been Corlys' great-grandmother.

But my guess is that Corlys himself has a Targaryen mother - either Rhaena Targaryen (more likely) or one of Rhaena's daughters (less likely, as they would have to give birth at a very early age).

Not sure what this disenchantment thing is about:

If Cersei can conceive Robert's children with Jaime's help, then it was always likely that the biological father of various Targaryen kings was also not their royal sire. Thus it was to be expected that Aegon I was not exactly the real ancestor of the present-day Targaryens. Dany does not have to know this. I guess even Aenys did not know the truth about his heritage, although the fact that Visenya addressed him as 'nephew' rather than '(step-)son' could be a hint. With Rhaenys dying in 10 AC Visenya was effectively Aenys' stepmother throughout most of his life.

[The Wolf Lord's Daughter]

Aegon's blood didn't spontaneously appeared inside his body. He got his genes from his parents, which happened to be Rhaenys' parents as well. They have the same blood.

Magical genetics aren't math. The fact that two parents are Targaryen dosn't make the offspring twice the Targaryen. It just meant that the kid has more chances to have dragon blood. Aegon himself doesn't come from two Targs, yet no one doubts he's a fully Targaryen person.

Exactly. Dany herself say's that she's the "blood of Maegor the cruel" when she promises to take revenge on Jhaqo despite knowing she's desended from Aenys I.