Disillusioned with Targaryens (Rhaenys as an adulteress)

[Annara Snow]

when said blood line is magical, it probably important that you inbreed.

after all was it not because of dany blood that she manged to hatch dragons?

If you take a look at the Targaryen family tree, Dany has more blood of the First Men, Andals and Rhoynar than Valyrian blood. She has exactly as much Targaryen blood as Egg's children, who had a Blackwood mother (no Targ or Valyrian DNA we know of), a Dayne grandmother, a Martell great-grandmother, a Lyseni (Rogare) great-grear-great grandmother, and other non-Targaryen ancestors further down the family tree. So, by your logic, the ability to ride dragons should have been lost to the Targaryens long tim ago.

Genes have that funny characteristic of being passed on to your children and their children even without you interbreeding with your brother or uncle.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I think the main confusion here is how people believe genes pass.

For instance, my father could roll his tongue. I can do it too, but that doesn't mean I can only roll half my tongue or I'm half able to do it. The whole gene that enable us to do it has been passed to me as I passed it to my son and the three of us can do it perfectly, despite my mother and my child's dad not being able to.

The Targaryens married other Targaryens to keep the blood pure, but "pureness" is not exactly what they are achieving. They are simply making the odds higher for breeding more dragonriders. With one parent being a dragonrider, the chance of the kid being one is not as high as having two parents with that type of characteristic. But one parent doesn't mean you have half the skill.

[Til]

So why was Corlys not a dragonrider? Furthermore, if he's a Targaryen on the side of one of his female ancestors... again, how does that help your argument?

It's really obvious that he "dragonriding gene" comes from either mother or father.

The only argument I was making is that Corlys has dragonblood. In your post that I quoted, you were arguing that only Laena and Laenor had the ability to ride a dragon, and that came from their mother. You specifically said that it couldn't have been from Corlys or House Velaryon because they weren't dragonriders. Pointing out that Corlys and House Velaryon are descended from dragonlords explicitly helps my argument that Corlys and House Velaryon are descended from dragonlords.

As for why Corlys was not a dragonrider, my guess would be because he was never given a dragon. There are plenty of proper Targaryens who were never dragonriders, but that doesn't mean they somehow lacked the genetics for it.

[Annara Snow]

The only argument I was making is that Corlys has dragonblood. In your post that I quoted, you were arguing that only Laena and Laenor had the ability to ride a dragon, and that came from their mother. You specifically said that it couldn't have been from Corlys or House Velaryon because they weren't dragonriders. Pointing out that Corlys and House Velaryon are descended from dragonlords explicitly helps my argument that Corlys and House Velaryon are descended from dragonlords.

As for why Corlys was not a dragonrider, my guess would be because he was never given a dragon. There are plenty of proper Targaryens who were never dragonriders, but that doesn't mean they somehow lacked the genetics for it.

Pointing out that Corlys (perhaps) could have been a dragonrider and was descended from dragonlords - through the female line, contradicts your argument that the dragonriding gene is supposedly carried only through the male line.

[Til]

Pointing out that Corlys (perhaps) was descended from dragonlords - through the female line, contradicts your argument that the dragonriding gene is supposedly carried only through the male line.

Please point out where I ever made that argument.

[Annara Snow]

Please point out where I ever made that argument.

How else, exactly? Velaryons are not known for being dragoriders.

And you still haven't explained Rhaenyra's children by Harwin Strong, or do you really think they were Laenor's?

Also, what kind of gene would only get passed through the male line, but still manifest in females?!

[Til]

How else, exactly? Velaryons are not known for being dragoriders.

And you still haven't explained Rhaenyra's children by Harwin Strong, or do you really think they were Laenor's?

Also, what kind of gene would only get passed through the male line, but still manifest in females?!

No, I'm asking you to point out where I ever argued that dragonriding was inherited solely from the father. Because I've never done so. I think you're confusing me for another poster.

[Annara Snow]

Aegon I Targaryen, Visenya Targaryen, and Rhaenys Targaryen all had a Velaryon mom, it was said and i quote " Herself half Targaryen on her mother's side."

so you deny that Laenor was able to sire children on Rhaenyra. but he manged to do so on some lowborn?

and? addam regardless of who his dad was did not get the dragon rider gene from his mom who was not targaryen.

WTF? Who said Laenor had a bastard son? :blink: Laenor was 100% gay and didn't want to sire children on anyone.

And Velaryons are not dragonriders, unless you think they got it from some Targ on the female line... which contradicts your argument.

Rhaenyra's children definitely got their dragonrider gene from their mother.

Besides, what kind of gene would get passed only through male line, but still manifest in females?!

Most importantly, why exactly are you adamant to argue that dragonriding gene is what boys and girls can only get from their daddy, in spite of nothing at all in the books to suggest that? I have some ideas as to why, but I'll try to give you the benefit of the doubt...

No, I'm asking you to point out where I ever argued that dragonriding was inherited solely from the father. Because I've never done so. I think you're confusing me for another poster.

Oh, my mistake. It's the poster above.

Then I'm not sure what we've been arguing over. :lol:

[Til]

Oh, my mistake. It's the poster above.

Then I'm not sure what we've been arguing over. :lol:

Mostly just me being a Velaryon fanboy and trying to show everyone how awesome they are :cool4:

To go slightly more in-depth with your question about why Corlys wasn't a dragonrider, I wouldn't be surprised if Laena and Laenor were the exceptions and only got their dragons by way of Rhaenys and hers. It's my headcanon that the Targaryens wanted to keep the dragon population under tight control so no cadet branches or other Houses they married into could become dragonlords in their own right and become a threat. With that in mind, it explains why Corlys was never given the opportunity to bond with a dragon.

[The silver dragon]

I think you should all do a genetics refresher.

In reality ALL out mitochondrial DNA comes ONLY from our mothers, so I am guessing that it is the MOTHER that mostly determines dragon handling ability just as I suspect it is the key to WARGING.

I think it is the female Targ blood that is critical NOT male blood.

If you take a look at the Targaryen family tree, Dany has more blood of the First Men, Andals and Rhoynar than Valyrian blood. She has exactly as much Targaryen blood as Egg's children, who had a Blackwood mother (no Targ or Valyrian DNA we know of), a Dayne grandmother, a Martell great-grandmother, a Lyseni (Rogare) great-grear-great grandmother, and other non-Targaryen ancestors further down the family tree. So, by your logic, the ability to ride dragons should have been lost to the Targaryens long tim ago.

Genes have that funny characteristic of being passed on to your children and their children even without you interbreeding with your brother or uncle.

Rogare was a Valryian family. who just happened to live in lys.

WTF? Who said Laenor had a bastard son? :blink: Laenor was 100% gay and didn't want to sire children on anyone.

And Velaryons are not dragonriders, unless you think they got it from some Targ on the female line... which contradicts your argument.

Rhaenyra's children definitely got their dragonrider gene from their mother.

Besides, what kind of gene would get passed only through male line, but still manifest in females?!

Most importantly, why exactly are you adamant to argue that dragonriding gene is what boys and girls can only get from their daddy, in spite of nothing at all in the books to suggest that? I have some ideas as to why, but I'll try to give you the benefit of the doubt...

Oh, my mistake. It's the poster above.

Then I'm not sure what we've been arguing over. :lol:

you implied it when you said that we have no proof that those (addam,alyn) were colrys children.

my argument was that i was trying to discredit luddagain ridiculous quote. but i personally believe that it's important to get the dragonrider gene's from both parents and not just one or you could have a alyn incident were only one of your children can ride a dragon.

[Annara Snow]

Rogare was a Valryian family. who just happened to live in lys.

my argument was that i was trying to discredit luddagain ridiculous quote. but i personally believe that it's important to get the dragonrider gene's from both parents and not just one or you could have a alyn incident were only one of your children can ride a dragon.

That didn't stop any of Viserys' children by Alicent. Or Rhaenyra's children presumably by Harwyn. And "dragonseeds" would at best have gene from one parent, if at all (who knows if they were really 'dragonseeds', Nettles is a particularly suspect case).

Since that gene seems to be dominant, there is no need to get it from both your parents. Just one.

[The silver dragon]

That didn't stop any of Viserys' children by Alicent. Or Rhaenyra's children presumably by Harwyn. And "dragonseeds" would at best have gene from one parent, if at all (who knows if they were really 'dragonseeds', Nettles is a particularly suspect case).

Since that gene seems to be dominant, there is no need to get it from both your parents. Just one.

when your power that keeps the realm stable rests on your family having a dragon.

you kinda what to make sure your Children inherit the dragon-rider gene. the only way to do that is to marry someone with the said dragon gene. hence the incest begins.

[Elessar]

OP are you actually a 14 year old Thai female?

And WTF is that story about Gregor Clegane in your profile? Now THAT is some fucked up shit worthy of a 22 page thread...

As for this whole thing. I can't believe it's even a thing, seeing as there are no facts, nothing but rumours at all and considering the man Aenys grew to be I don't doubt that he was the son of the Conqueror.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

No, you're attempting to excuse Rhaenys no matter what the scenario was. First you say maybe Rhaenys didn't love Aegon, so that's her excuse. But sneaking off to be with a secret lover isn't what happened, she was simply sleeping around with many men she didn't love. So love had nothing to do with it, it was just selfish lust. Then you say the rumors are a plot to shame Rhaenys, right after you claim that she hasn't done anything to be ashamed of even if she is guilty of the acts which she is accused of! So which is it? You can hardly shame a woman who has behaved honestly, honorably and responsibly.

You say my argument is repetitive, what you should say is I'm consistent, because you certainly aren't. Your posts were full of contradictions and, to anyone who read them, it is obvious you're just attempting to excuse Rhaenys irrespective of any opposing argument. I think the word you're looking for is irresponsibility.

What part of this post by me did you fail to understand?

The Weirwoods Eyes

I believe we should take all the potential factors into account before judging somebody. That's what I have been saying all along. That there could be various different scenario's which led the Rhaenys being unfaithful. IF indeed she was at all. What I have been advocating for is Not jumping to conclusions and tarring someone as a "harlot" because of rumours which have no viability and which come at a time when people around her had reason to spread them.

I set out to explain VARIOUS scenario's which may have led to infidelity & I said clearly in my above post that I had done so?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Who cares? They are certainly descended from Aegon's sister. That's a very close relation, Aenys shared a lot of genetic material with him even if he was not his biological father.

And why is it that important for them to be descended from Aegon, specifically? Rhaenys and Visenya had equally big roles in the conquest, and most likely in the ruling as well. They were a great conquering trio and worked perfectly together as warriors and rulers and diplomats, whatever their personal relations were. The Westerosi just like to focus on Aegon exclusively because they live in a sexist patriarchal culture.*

We always knew that they were not descended from Visenya, because Maegor didn't have living descendants - did anyone have a huge problem with that? So, if you don't have a problem with them not being descended from Visenya, why throw a fit over them not perhaps being descended from Aegon? They're definitely descended from Rhaenys. That should be enough. In normal dynasties and families, people are descended from just one sibling, anyway, not two of them. Nobody is disappointed that Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Rickon and Jon are descended only from Ned or only from Lyanna, rather than being a fruit of incest between Ned and Lyanna.

* I can't help but laugh at the idiocy and hypocrisy of the Westerosi lords and kings who, according to the Faith, should've been all "Polygamy is bad, mkay?", but who kept offering their daughters (or themselves, as in Sharra's case) as wives for Aegon, completely ignoring his sister-wives. Gildayn is even more of an idiot, at least Sharra may have been desperate when she made her idiotic proposal, but his "well, it totally could have worked and Aegon could have totally decided to piss off his sisters and make some other woman's non-Targaryen son, who's not his blood at all, his heir - if only Sharra had been younger and hotter, instead of a 30-something Metusalem!" made me laugh out loud.

This is a great post Annara. :thumbsup:

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Aegon's blood didn't spontaneously appeared inside his body. He got his genes from his parents, which happened to be Rhaenys' parents as well. They have the same blood.

Magical genetics aren't math. The fact that two parents are Targaryen dosn't make the offspring twice the Targaryen. It just meant that the kid has more chances to have dragon blood. Aegon himself doesn't come from two Targs, yet no one doubts he's a fully Targaryen person.

Hear bloomin hear. :agree:

I hate when people start talking about % of blood for christs sake. It doesn't work like that. you can't divide people up and say they are a 1/4 this and a 1/3 that, for crying out loud. SMH.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

In regard to genetics for Dragon riding, It seems clear that it is a Gene, as opposed to being dependant upon concentration of blood FFS! as JCRB so eloquently put it Genetics aren't math. Brilliant line that lass, I have been beating my head against the wall for years over people thinking this. It was the perfect way to explain such a basic fact, one so many fail to grasp. Good Lass. :cheers:

Maybe we ought to divine a punnett square to illustrate.

Yes indeed Danaerys's Blood is very far from being "pure" targaryen, verry far indeed, yet she hatched and bonded with 3 dragons, one of which she rides. Brown Ben Plumb must be even further away from the "pure" targ blood these people seem to hold so very dear, and yet. Clearly they like him. Quintyn has a mere speck of Targ blood by their standards (LMAO) and yet he seemed to be doing awfully well with Viserion before Rhaegal decided he wasn't as enamoured.

It is a gene, it can be passed on, just like your eye colour, the abillity to roll your tongue (great example) hair colour etc. Now yes of course in breeding increases the chance of producing children with that gene. Hence line breeding in dogs, chickens etc, that is how you produce an animal which breeds true.

But evidently the Dr (Dragon riding) gene has been passed on in spite of many generations of non inbred Targs, so ergo it is NOT about "purity" of the blood, or else no one would be able to ride/bond with be liked by etc any dragons at this point. Certainly we can assume that the Targaryens do not understand genes, or grasp that it has sod all to do with their blood being "pure" they are going on what they know. ie in breeding produces more Dr's than non in breeding there fore we inbreed as much as possible & when we can not we breed with a family we have previously bred with. This of course increases the chances of Dr gene passing to the offspring, as Dr gene is possibly in their blood line too.

Blood is not math, it doesn't get divided up into % or fractions. the gene is either passed on or not. Just like my mates who both have brown eyes & have 4 sons and one has blue eyes. The gene for blue eyes was carried somewhere by both parents and he got it, but his siblings did not.

If that gene which gave them all brown eyes was the dr gene, the parents and the three brothers would all be dragon riders, but he would not. he'd be the Targ kid who's egg failed to hatch.

[Lion of the West]

As a Lannister fan I'm pretty cool with a line surviving through the female side.

Even thought I do believe that both Aenys and Maegor were Aegon's.

[Aemond's Eye]

In regard to genetics for Dragon riding, It seems clear that it is a Gene, as opposed to being dependant upon concentration of blood FFS! as JCRB so eloquently put it Genetics aren't math. Brilliant line that lass, I have been beating my head against the wall for years over people thinking this. It was the perfect way to explain such a basic fact, one so many fail to grasp. Good Lass. :cheers:

Maybe we ought to divine a punnett square to illustrate.

Yes indeed Danaerys's Blood is very far from being "pure" targaryen, verry far indeed, yet she hatched and bonded with 3 dragons, one of which she rides. Brown Ben Plumb must be even further away from the "pure" targ blood these people seem to hold so very dear, and yet. Clearly they like him. Quintyn has a mere speck of Targ blood by their standards (LMAO) and yet he seemed to be doing awfully well with Viserion before Rhaegal decided he wasn't as enamoured.

It is a gene, it can be passed on, just like your eye colour, the abillity to roll your tongue (great example) hair colour etc. Now yes of course in breeding increases the chance of producing children with that gene. Hence line breeding in dogs, chickens etc, that is how you produce an animal which breeds true.

But evidently the Dr (Dragon riding) gene has been passed on in spite of many generations of non inbred Targs, so ergo it is NOT about "purity" of the blood, or else no one would be able to ride/bond with be liked by etc any dragons at this point. Certainly we can assume that the Targaryens do not understand genes, or grasp that it has sod all to do with their blood being "pure" they are going on what they know. ie in breeding produces more Dr's than non in breeding there fore we inbreed as much as possible & when we can not we breed with a family we have previously bred with. This of course increases the chances of Dr gene passing to the offspring, as Dr gene is possibly in their blood line too.

Blood is not math, it doesn't get divided up into % or fractions. the gene is either passed on or not. Just like my mates who both have brown eyes & have 4 sons and one has blue eyes. The gene for blue eyes was carried somewhere by both parents and he got it, but his siblings did not.

If that gene which gave them all brown eyes was the dr gene, the parents and the three brothers would all be dragon riders, but he would not. he'd be the Targ kid who's egg failed to hatch.

I think a lot of folk use "blood" rather than "gene" due to the language of the books, to be honest ("...blood of the dragon," "blood of Old Valyria") rather than because they think it's down to percentage of the Targaryen-ness of the blood - I know that I do. (Some folk are obviously using it differently to me though, and are actually posting about the "percentage" of the blood.)

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Yea, alas a LOT of folk refer to characters as X% Targayen. and not just in here too I've encountered it in other spots an all.

I try explaining but alas......