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Disillusioned with Targaryens (Rhaenys as an adulteress)


Forever May

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Aegon can't have been sterile, since, well Maegor. And I don't think Visenya slept around. However I think we can agree that the Seed was not Strong (had two wives, but only two sons, one of them might not have been his, both sons born relatively late, after many many years of marriage).

Visenya was reputed to be a sorceress and use magic. Considering the fact that the only children Maegor had were abominations who couldn't survive, many believe that Visenya used magic to conceive Maegor (all magic has a price after all). Also, Visenya had Maegor only after people were suggesting Aegon marry a third time because Visenya didn't have any children and Aenys looked like he was dying. Then the 40 year old Visenya announces she pregnant and that she's sure it's a boy. The circumstances of Maegor's birth look rather suspicious. I'm inclined to believe Visenya did use magic to have Maegor.

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If Aegon's seed was not completely worthless we could assume that he was able to conceive with magical assistance - which would be how Visenya got impregnated in that scenario. Rhaenys, who was not sorceress, used a sperm-donor to conceive an heir.



But Aegon could also be completely sterile - Aenys is then also conceived by another man, whereas Visenya created Maegor solely through magical means without Aegon's assistance. Maegor would then be a sort of female clone of Visenya.


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And there is the thing, I am mature enough, sensible enough, and have enough humanity and compassion, decency, sense, and life experience to understand that this is simply not true.

No, you're attempting to excuse Rhaenys no matter what the scenario was. First you say maybe Rhaenys didn't love Aegon, so that's her excuse. But sneaking off to be with a secret lover isn't what happened, she was simply sleeping around with many men she didn't love. So love had nothing to do with it, it was just selfish lust. Then you say the rumors are a plot to shame Rhaenys, right after you claim that she hasn't done anything to be ashamed of even if she is guilty of the acts which she is accused of! So which is it? You can hardly shame a woman who has behaved honestly, honorably and responsibly.

You say my argument is repetitive, what you should say is I'm consistent, because you certainly aren't. Your posts were full of contradictions and, to anyone who read them, it is obvious you're just attempting to excuse Rhaenys irrespective of any opposing argument. I think the word you're looking for is irresponsibility.

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Aegon may not mind for multiple reasons. The thing is, we need to take a step back from the constant reinforcement of Westeros Andal-First Men values which the books give us: Bastards are horrible, Women come last, and Bloodlines above all. We've had that beaten into our head by EVERY character in the book save a few rare exceptions (from Dorne and the Wildlings) as part of the worldbuilding. Which is a great thing as it reinforces what is important to these people. However, we need to remember Aegon and his sister-wives aren't a part of this culture. They're Valyrians or, if you will, members of the independent nation of Dragonstone.

I'm just going by what the story says. "Targaryens wed brother to sister to keep bloodlines pure." We're told they had something special in their blood, the dragon blood, and they prided themselves on it and went to extreme lengths to protect it. Where does it suggest they were okay with their women mothering any old man's bastard?

Aegon may not simply prioritize his direct patrinial descendant sitting on the iron throne, especially if it's his nephew either way. This is highly unlikely, even today in a sexually liberated society so I'll admit you raise a point, but it's possible Aegon was more interested in simply conquering Westeros for HIMSELF rather than establishing a dynasty which he can't continue. In the event he's sterile, he may be like Daenerys and is claiming the Kingdom for his House but leaving it to others to maintain. As far as Daeny knows, either way, she'll be the last of the Targaryens but she's still planning on conquering Westeros for the Targaryens.

Oh gods but that Dany argument is horrible. Yet true enough. Dany is extremely irresponsible and doesn't think things through. She has no idea what she is doing or how to do it. To suggest Aegon was the same is really an insult, but possible.

Still, none of this excuses what they were doing, even if Aegon tolerated it. Just because Aegon was okay with a bastard succeeding him (assuming he was), that doesn't mean any of the high lords would be okay with kneeling before a bastard. You know they wouldn't. And there's still the point you're ignoring, that trying to mother an heir to protect the dynasty is not what Rhaenys is accused of. She is accused of sleeping with random bards and mummers, there's a big difference.

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Visenya was reputed to be a sorceress and use magic. Considering the fact that the only children Maegor had were abominations who couldn't survive, many believe that Visenya used magic to conceive Maegor (all magic has a price after all). Also, Visenya had Maegor only after people were suggesting Aegon marry a third time because Visenya didn't have any children and Aenys looked like he was dying. Then the 40 year old Visenya announces she pregnant and that she's sure it's a boy. The circumstances of Maegor's birth look rather suspicious. I'm inclined to believe Visenya did use magic to have Maegor.

The magic involved to make Maegor was not to create a child from a single egg. It was to make that child a strong boy. Visenya was around forty when Maegor was born, and the chances of her giving birth a(nother) weak child or a girl were equally high as having the kid Aegon wanted and needed. And let's not count the chance of her dying during birth (giving her age). Hence, the use of magic.

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That's not true. You seem to be confusing the books with the show. Book!Cersei never wanted to marry Robert and never liked him.

Yep, I have indeed.

You're not the only one. It has been tripping me up too. It's really annoying that they aren't consistent.

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As for Rhaenys and the possible parentage of Aenys, I need more evidence than, "Some people said Rhaenys slept around". Additionally, their whole theory is built on the idea that Aenys, as a kid, wasn't some glorious warrior child. One he grew up some, matured and became a dragonrider, the rumors stopped. Both ASoIaF and the real world have many, many examples of fathers and sons being different from each other. That's hardly evidence of anything.

No, the point was in the title, disillusioned. Yes, the evidence is uncertain, but it's enough to make you realize Dany and Jon might not actually be descended from Aegon. And all that comes into question from a few lines. It struck me as, the major dynasty has been derailed just for a chance to give the Rhaenys character some color. I thought it was poor writing, that's what.

Second, even if it were true, so what? Aegon's Conquest was just as much Visenya's Conquest and Rhaenys' Conquest. Considering the complete lack of children from either wife after having been married to Aegon for years, I'm more partial to the idea that Aegon was sterile, and his two children were from other means (pretty boytoy with Rhaenys, black magic with Visenya). I doubt Aegon would want his House to die out with him. Better to have some random Valyrian-looking sperm donor knock up Rhaenys, then raise the child as his own. The kid would still be a Targaryen by blood, and theoretically he'd be just as able a future king as any genetic son of Aegon. Granted, Aenys turned out to be a weakling, but I'd wager that's more to do with losing his mother at an early age than not having Aegon's genetic material (which is the same as Rhaenys', for what it's worth).

Well read my previous posts. "Better to have some random Valyrian-looking sperm donor knock up Rhaenys," this is not what happened. We're talking about a loose woman, not a woman secretly trying to get pregnant. Secretly trying to get pregnant because your husband is sterile is one thing, it is a scandal but it is understandable. Yet simply sleeping around with random bards and mummers is a completely different thing and raises dozens of moral issues and legal questions.

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History written by men paints Aegon as the guy in charge. Whether this is truly the case we do not know.

Well you'd have to be completely brainless to think the women in a marriage and situation like this weren't powerful. I mean, even if Rhaenys and Visenya were indeed following Aegon's lead, they still played massive roles. I think there is enough evidence to suggest Aegon was a man of ambition however, and generally took charge.

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I think you should all do a genetics refresher.



In reality ALL out mitochondrial DNA comes ONLY from our mothers, so I am guessing that it is the MOTHER that mostly determines dragon handling ability just as I suspect it is the key to WARGING.



I think it is the female Targ blood that is critical NOT male blood.


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You're not the only one. It has been tripping me up too. It's really annoying that they aren't consistent.

I think it does the character a disservice, really. It's perhaps made her more likeable for the TV show audience, but her narcissism is a big part of her character, and by leaving that out it means the character is going to get further and further away from her book counterpart.

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I think you should all do a genetics refresher.

In reality ALL out mitochondrial DNA comes ONLY from our mothers, so I am guessing that it is the MOTHER that mostly determines dragon handling ability just as I suspect it is the key to WARGING.

I think it is the female Targ blood that is critical NOT male blood.

You realise mitochondrial DNA is different from regular cellular DNA, right?

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I'm just going by what the story says. "Targaryens wed brother to sister to keep bloodlines pure." We're told they had something special in their blood, the dragon blood, and they prided themselves on it and went to extreme lengths to protect it. Where does it suggest they were okay with their women mothering any old man's bastard?

While they believed that, do we think this particular trio does?

Though, I imagine Rhaeny's sister doesn't.

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Maid so fair



Yes of bloody course



It is just that the poster was carrying on about dilution of blood etc. Not the case for mitochondrial DNA (which is pretty bloody important as it allows living and breathing.



Also NOT the case for male/male/male descent whereby the Y chromosome MUST remain the same father to son


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No, the point was in the title, disillusioned. Yes, the evidence is uncertain, but it's enough to make you realize Dany and Jon might not actually be descended from Aegon.

Who cares? They are certainly descended from Aegon's sister. That's a very close relation, Aenys shared a lot of genetic material with him even if he was not his biological father.

And why is it that important for them to be descended from Aegon, specifically? Rhaenys and Visenya had equally big roles in the conquest, and most likely in the ruling as well. They were a great conquering trio and worked perfectly together as warriors and rulers and diplomats, whatever their personal relations were. The Westerosi just like to focus on Aegon exclusively because they live in a sexist patriarchal culture.*

We always knew that they were not descended from Visenya, because Maegor didn't have living descendants - did anyone have a huge problem with that? So, if you don't have a problem with them not being descended from Visenya, why throw a fit over them not perhaps being descended from Aegon? They're definitely descended from Rhaenys. That should be enough. In normal dynasties and families, people are descended from just one sibling, anyway, not two of them. Nobody is disappointed that Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Rickon and Jon are descended only from Ned or only from Lyanna, rather than being a fruit of incest between Ned and Lyanna.

* I can't help but laugh at the idiocy and hypocrisy of the Westerosi lords and kings who, according to the Faith, should've been all "Polygamy is bad, mkay?", but who kept offering their daughters (or themselves, as in Sharra's case) as wives for Aegon, completely ignoring his sister-wives. Gildayn is even more of an idiot, at least Sharra may have been desperate when she made her idiotic proposal, but his "well, it totally could have worked and Aegon could have totally decided to piss off his sisters and make some other woman's non-Targaryen son, who's not his blood at all, his heir - if only Sharra had been younger and hotter, instead of a 30-something Metusalem!" made me laugh out loud.

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I think you should all do a genetics refresher.

In reality ALL out mitochondrial DNA comes ONLY from our mothers, so I am guessing that it is the MOTHER that mostly determines dragon handling ability just as I suspect it is the key to WARGING.

I think it is the female Targ blood that is critical NOT male blood.

then none of the green's would have been able to ride dragon's as they are descended from a high-tower mother.

if anything the dad's gene are probably more important as corlys son addam was a dragon rider.

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then none of the green's would have been able to ride dragon's as they are descended from a high-tower mother.

if anything the dad's gene are probably more important as corlys son addam was a dragon rider.

Oh really? So, you're a firm believer that Laenor was really the father of Rhaenyra's children?

We don't even know if Corlys was Addam's father, but even if he was... how does that help your case? Corlys was not a dragonrider. The Velaryons were not dragonriders. Laena and Laenor were - but they had Rhaenys Targaryen for mother.

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Oh really? So, you're a firm believer that Laenor was really the father of Rhaenyra's children?

We don't even know if Corlys was Addam's father, but even if he was... how does that help your case? Corlys was not a dragonrider. The Velaryons were not dragonriders. Laena and Laenor were - but they had Rhaenys Targaryen for mother.

Aegon I Targaryen, Visenya Targaryen, and Rhaenys Targaryen all had a Velaryon mom, it was said and i quote " Herself half Targaryen on her mother's side."

so you deny that Laenor was able to sire children on Rhaenyra. but he manged to do so on some lowborn?

and? addam regardless of who his dad was did not get the dragon rider gene from his mom who was not targaryen.

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