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Forever May

Disillusioned with Targaryens (Rhaenys as an adulteress)

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Quintyn has a mere speck of Targ blood by their standards (LMAO) and yet he seemed to be doing awfully well with Viserion before Rhaegal decided he wasn't as enamoured.

I think the dragon was more confused by what he was doing than enspelled.

Quentyn's perspective is rather misleading since HE believes he was succeeding.

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If you take a look at the Targaryen family tree, Dany has more blood of the First Men, Andals and Rhoynar than Valyrian blood. She has exactly as much Targaryen blood as Egg's children, who had a Blackwood mother (no Targ or Valyrian DNA we know of), a Dayne grandmother, a Martell great-grandmother, a Lyseni (Rogare) great-grear-great grandmother, and other non-Targaryen ancestors further down the family tree. So, by your logic, the ability to ride dragons should have been lost to the Targaryens long tim ago.

Genes have that funny characteristic of being passed on to your children and their children even without you interbreeding with your brother or uncle.

Genes are crazy in GRRM world, but I roughly calculated Daenerys DNA composition (excluded female relations - no family tree data)

Dany is:

3.75% High Valyrian

1.5% Andal

7.25% Lysene

12.5% Rhoynar

25% Dornish

50% First Men

Go figure.

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I think the dragon was more confused by what he was doing than enspelled.

Quentyn's perspective is rather misleading since HE believes he was succeeding.

V: O___O Dude, what the fuck are you doing? Rhaegal! Come! See!!! Look!! He's performing some contemporary dance with his whip!

R: fucking hipster... *fires*

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V: O___O Dude, what the fuck are you doing? Rhaegal! Come! See!!! Look!! He's performing some contemporary dance with his whip!

R: fucking hipster... *fires*

I'm not sure that's all that far from the truth.

Even a tiger will wonder what the hell a guy climbing into its cage is doing before mauling it.

:-)

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V: O___O Dude, what the fuck are you doing? Rhaegal! Come! See!!! Look!! He's performing some contemporary dance with his whip!

R: fucking hipster... *fires*

:lol:

I think that's close to what happened. He was essentially voluntarily walking into a trap - Viserion was just watching and waiting for Rhaegal to do his thing. And "his thing" was barbecuing Quentyn.

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Genes are crazy in GRRM world, but I roughly calculated Daenerys DNA composition (excluded female relations - no family tree data)

Dany is:

3.75% High Valyrian

1.5% Andal

7.25% Lysene

12.5% Rhoynar

25% Dornish

50% First Men

Go figure.

That's crazy...truly crazy. Great job.

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Aenys' bastardy is a mere rumor, and even if he actually is not the son of Aegon, Aenys STILL remains a descendant of Aenar Targaryen, a Dragonlord of Valyria.


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If you take a look at the Targaryen family tree, Dany has more blood of the First Men, Andals and Rhoynar than Valyrian blood. She has exactly as much Targaryen blood as Egg's children, who had a Blackwood mother (no Targ or Valyrian DNA we know of), a Dayne grandmother, a Martell great-grandmother, a Lyseni (Rogare) great-grear-great grandmother, and other non-Targaryen ancestors further down the family tree. So, by your logic, the ability to ride dragons should have been lost to the Targaryens long tim ago.

Genes have that funny characteristic of being passed on to your children and their children even without you interbreeding with your brother or uncle.

Lost my original post.

Small quibbles:

1) The Lyseni preserve the most Valyrian blood, and Rogare showed the traits. She shouldn't be counted as non-Valyrian.

2) Aegon IV had two daughters with Missy Blackwood, and they were legitimized. One of their daughters, or one of them (age depending) could be Aegon V's beloved, so there's some nebulous there as well.

I'm waiting to find out Jenny of Oldstones was Nettle's grand-daughter, possibly by Daemon Targaryen, due to the fact that Targaryens seem strongly drawn to each other.

If dr is a completely dominant trait, the issue isn't pure blood, but trying to preserve a homozygous line so you don't waste the limited resource of dragon eggs, if the connection is required to quicken them.

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Lost my original post.

Small quibbles:

1) The Lyseni preserve the most Valyrian blood, and Rogare showed the traits. She shouldn't be counted as non-Valyrian.

No, I counted her as non-Targaryen.

If the idea was that Valyrian blood is what they need, that would not explain incest at all. They could have constantly been arranging marriages with other Valyrian families, and go to Lys to look for brides.

2) Aegon IV had two daughters with Missy Blackwood, and they were legitimized. One of their daughters, or one of them (age depending) could be Aegon V's beloved, so there's some nebulous there as well.

No, she couldn't be. Bloodraven's sisters were called Mya and Gwenys, and they would be old enough to be Egg's mother. And even if they decided to take the name Blackwood when legitimized, instead of taking the last name Targaryen or retaining Rivers like their brother - their daughters would not bear the last name Blackwood. They'd bear their father's name, or a bastard last name if they were bastards. Egg's wife was called "Black" Betha Blackwood.

I'm also not sure why anyone would look for proofs that Egg's wife was a Targaryen, when so much is made in TWOAIF of Egg's opposition to incest.

Maybe it's just time the fandom made peace with the fact that the Targaryens didn't always inbreed.

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I don't know if this has been touched on already, but I think a lot of this really comes down to the interpersonal relationship of Aegon, Visenya and Rhaneys, which Martin keeps wisely at some distance.



Given that it was Visenya who lived the longest, I think a lot of this is just people trying to curry her favor in later life, which lasted the longest since she would have been the last major figure from that era to appease. I think from reading the whole thing it seems Visenya was dutiful to Aegon but jealous of the attention given to Rhaenys (this would be natural in any polygamous situation between the two partners that share the same sex). At this point I think family was all still very important for the Targaryens and that she herself didn't make these tales up and that Rhaneys DID have a number of men around that she found interesting, but that these stories are crafted by others to what they thought Visenya would have wanted to hear: that Rhaenys was doing to Aegon what Aegon was doing to her.



However, I don't think it was true. I'm not sure Rhaenys was necessarily passionate towards Aegon, but it would have risked pregnancy to have a lover, and she had some pretty specific requirements as to how that child would have to appear. The Targaryens were also less certain of their hold on power then, and actually mating with the Andals and messing with the succession at that point in time would have been counterproductive to what all three had all mutually spent a lot of time and effort to achieve.



Rhanys might have had the persona to be flighty and carefree, but I think she was too close to the work, so to speak.



The reality seems to me that the true spouse for all three of them was the Conquest of Westeros.


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No, I counted her as non-Targaryen.

If the idea was that Valyrian blood is what they need, that would not explain incest at all. They could have constantly been arranging marriages with other Valyrian families, and go to Lys to look for brides.

No, she couldn't be. Bloodraven's sisters were called Mya and Gwenys, and they would be old enough to be Egg's mother. And even if they decided to take the name Blackwood when legitimized, instead of taking the last name Targaryen or retaining Rivers like their brother - their daughters would not bear the last name Blackwood. They'd bear their father's name, or a bastard last name if they were bastards. Egg's wife was called "Black" Betha Blackwood.

I'm also not sure why anyone would look for proofs that Egg's wife was a Targaryen, when so much is made in TWOAIF of Egg's opposition to incest.

Maybe it's just time the fandom made peace with the fact that the Targaryens didn't always inbreed.

That's not it. It's more that the Targaryens seem drawn to each other- incest is repulsive in part because you are reacting to pheromones too similar to your own. The Targs seem to be the opposite- many of them seem drawn to each other despite upbringing. Jahearys II and his wife, Aegon IV and the Defiant, etc. It's part of the reason the "twins are Aerys' children" idea has some appeal- that the twincest is based on an attraction that shouldn't be there, but perversely is for Targaryens. If Targs- as I postulate in another thread- really aren't entirely human, it has more merit (everyone else is slightly repellant because they smell wrong).

Possibly Bloodraven's sisters married back in to the family- that we don't know. We also know that the Rogarre's were a "noble family of Lys." May be non-Targaryen, doesn't mean that the nobles of Lys don't have bloodlines of the other dragonlords but no eggs or dragons. Lys's rulership has been fairly stable, after all. I think it's a bit of an attempt to minimize to state it as "Lyseni" but then label Targaryen as "High Valyrian"- the Velaryons and possibly even the Lyseni nobles seem as they should count as High Valyrian, even if not strictly Targaryen. If you are counting Targaryen, then it should be labeled Targaryen, which is a very specific subset of High Valyrian. They weren't even the only dragonlords to survive the Doom, after all- just the only ones to survive with dragons through the Century of Blood.

EDIT: Ah. As noted, I lost the original post, and quoted you when I wanted the poster who had actual %'s listed. Apologies on the confusion.

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That's crazy...truly crazy. Great job.

It gets crazier than that, some posters here say that Jon is the true balance of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar), but genetically this actually isn't the case at all.

Lyanna Stark is roughly 81.25% First Men, 18.75% Andal. Rhaegar and Daenerys have EXACTLY the same genetic composition - unless Queen Rhaella got naughty somewhere.

So assuming R+L=J is correct.

Jon is roughly:

65.6% First Men

10% Andal

1.875% High Valyrian

3.5% Lysene

6.25% Rhoynar

12.5% Dornish

Daeneys has more of a balance of Ice (First Men) and Fire (High Valyrian) than Jon.

Ironically Jon has more First Men DNA that the rest of the Stark Children. Also Daenerys Tarygaryen has MORE First Men DNA than the Stark Children (excluding Jon) - totally remarkable. The children of Ned and Catelyn have more Andal DNA in them than First Men DNA, quite funny when you think of the warging and greenseeing and Bran and all.

I don't think this counts for anything, genetics is weird in ASOIAF, but it is fun to look at.

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It gets crazier than that, some posters here say that Jon is the true balance of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar), but genetically this actually isn't the case at all.

Lyanna Stark is roughly 81.25% First Men, 18.75% Andal. Rhaegar and Daenerys have EXACTLY the same genetic composition - unless Queen Rhaella got naughty somewhere.

So assuming R+L=J is correct.

Jon is roughly:

65.6% First Men

10% Andal

1.875% High Valyrian

3.5% Lysene

6.25% Rhoynar

12.5% Dornish

Daeneys has more of a balance of Ice (First Men) and Fire (High Valyrian) than Jon.

Ironically Jon has more First Men DNA that the rest of the Stark Children. Also Daenerys Tarygaryen has MORE First Men DNA than the Stark Children (excluding Jon) - totally remarkable. The children of Ned and Catelyn have more Andal DNA in them than First Men DNA, quite funny when you think of the warging and greenseeing and Bran and all.

I don't think this counts for anything, genetics is weird in ASOIAF, but it is fun to look at.

Well, the Tullys were also descended from the first men and were there since the age of heroes. So the Stark children still have more First Men blood than Dany, sorry. Not that it makes a difference. :p

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Well, the Tullys were also descended from the first men and were there since the age of heroes. So the Stark children still have more First Men blood than Dany, sorry. Not that it makes a difference. :P

Oh I thought the Tully's were Andals lol. Like I said, doesn't make much of a difference anyway.

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That's not it. It's more that the Targaryens seem drawn to each other- incest is repulsive in part because you are reacting to pheromones too similar to your own.

Actually, incest is mainly repulsive because people have grown up together and see each other as siblings/family members (the Westermarck effect). That's why adopted or foster siblings feel as repulsed by the idea of having sex/romantic relationships with each other as the blood relatives who have grown up together as siblings, while biological siblings, half-siblings, or even parent and child couples, who first meet as adults or teenagers, extremely often feel attracted to each other, and often fall in love with each other (Genetic Sexual Attraction - apparently happens in about 50% of siblings who haven't grown up together and first meet as teenagers or adults). The repulsion is social, not biological.

The Targs seem to be the opposite- many of them seem drawn to each other despite upbringing. Jahearys II and his wife, Aegon IV and the Defiant, etc. It's part of the reason the "twins are Aerys' children" idea has some appeal- that the twincest is based on an attraction that shouldn't be there, but perversely is for Targaryens. If Targs- as I postulate in another thread- really aren't entirely human, it has more merit (everyone else is slightly repellant because they smell wrong).

Despite upbringing? They have been brought up to think it's normal and almost inevitable that they'd have to marry one of their siblings or close blood relatives one day. If 3-4 examples over several centuries (including a girl who was in Maidenvault and didn't have many choices when it comes to men) are enough to prove that Targs are somehow genetically predisposed to incest, you could make the same case for the Lannisters. Two generations, and we have two examples of close blood relatives falling in love and having lifelong relationships, in spite of the fact that this has not been encouraged by their upbringing (cousin marriage to a woman from a lesser branch of the family doesn't bring any political and financial perks) or has been strictly forbidden (sibling incest).

The fact that some people use incest between Jaime and Cersei as evidence that they're Aerys' is highly ironic, considering the fact that Aerys didn't really have incestuous inclinations on his own, neither did Rhaella (they were made to marry by their father, they both preferred other people and couldn't stand each other) while Tywin at least (presumably/possibly Joanna as well) married their cousin for love and were pretty happy together. If the argument is that Jaime and Cersei falling for their close blood kin is something they inherited from their daddy, that should be used as evidence their daddy is Tywin.

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Jon is roughly:

65.6% First Men

10% Andal

1.875% High Valyrian

3.5% Lysene

6.25% Rhoynar

12.5% Dornish

I thought Lysene are Valyrians? And Rhoynar are mixed with Dornish. And is it stated any where who the Dornish originally descend from?

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I thought Lysene are Valyrians? And Rhoynar are mixed with Dornish. And is it stated any where who the Dornish originally descend from?

Yeah I wasn't sure, about those. To be honest I only spent a quick 5 minutes on it. Lysene are Valyrians, but High Valyrians? I'm not sure, so I deferred. Same with the Dornish - could not remember if they are First Men or Andals for the life of me, probably first men I imagine though.

It's all very very rough, because I do not know the DNA composition of females who married into the Targaryens, but to be fair the fluctuations would be not that significant.

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OP are you actually a 14 year old Thai female?

And WTF is that story about Gregor Clegane in your profile? Now THAT is some fucked up shit worthy of a 22 page thread....

I'm a fourteen year old girl but I'm not Thai, I just live here... and it is not fun. Thailand is a fascist dictatorship right now. I spend all my time inside (no school) writing stories and playing PS games. The writing is supposed to be my education. At least I'm good at it. Or getting better at it, anyway.

As for the story in my profile, it is fantasizing about rape. Obviously, it is supposed to be disturbing. It's just a sadist short story. It seems to stun most people who read it even though half of them aren't smart enough to understand the symbology and metaphors, so I take it that means it's good. If it wasn't disturbing then it wouldn't be sadistic and I would've failed my homework!

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I set out to explain VARIOUS scenario's which may have led to infidelity & I said clearly in my above post that I had done so?

I did the same. I acknowledged multiple times the rumors might be false. But I wanted to make a discussion based on if they were true.

And can you do me a favor? Give me an example (hypothetical or a reference) where adultery is acceptable. And I'd rather see one where the spouse does not approve. That will be hard though because such an example does not exist. Don't go and say, "Well there is a gay man and gay woman married," because farce relationships obviously don't count.

You know I know one woman who cheated on her boyfriend. They had been in a relationship for nearly a decade. The woman felt the relationship was going no where. The romance was dying, her boyfriend had not proposed to marry her, it was just too casual for her, she says. And so one night another guy hits on her and she cheats on her boyfriend. No surprises, the boyfriend was furious when he found out. He tore up their apartment and smashed the computer. Afterwards, this woman comes to me and I am unimpressed with her excuses, she tells me though, "Yeah but, he didn't have to break my computer." I reply, "You broke his heart and you can't understand why he broke your computer?" Obviously, the woman was damn shallow. It was despicable. She had a perfectly good reason, I mean her relationship was indeed dying. But she needed to break it off with her boyfriend first. The responsibility for his broken heart and her broken computer now is all her fault.

I don't see how adultery is ever acceptable or excusable. The adulterer needs to divorce first, end the relationship. Or in a case such as Westeros where divorce is difficult, they should just run away if they're so desperate. I'd like to hear a story from you about this.

In regard to genetics for Dragon riding, It seems clear that it is a Gene, as opposed to being dependant upon concentration of blood FFS! as JCRB so eloquently put it Genetics aren't math. Brilliant line that lass, I have been beating my head against the wall for years over people thinking this. It was the perfect way to explain such a basic fact, one so many fail to grasp. Good Lass. :cheers:

Maybe we ought to divine a punnett square to illustrate.

Yes indeed Danaerys's Blood is very far from being "pure" targaryen, verry far indeed, yet she hatched and bonded with 3 dragons, one of which she rides. Brown Ben Plumb must be even further away from the "pure" targ blood these people seem to hold so very dear, and yet. Clearly they like him. Quintyn has a mere speck of Targ blood by their standards (LMAO) and yet he seemed to be doing awfully well with Viserion before Rhaegal decided he wasn't as enamoured.

It is a gene, it can be passed on, just like your eye colour, the abillity to roll your tongue (great example) hair colour etc. Now yes of course in breeding increases the chance of producing children with that gene. Hence line breeding in dogs, chickens etc, that is how you produce an animal which breeds true.

But evidently the Dr (Dragon riding) gene has been passed on in spite of many generations of non inbred Targs, so ergo it is NOT about "purity" of the blood, or else no one would be able to ride/bond with be liked by etc any dragons at this point. Certainly we can assume that the Targaryens do not understand genes, or grasp that it has sod all to do with their blood being "pure" they are going on what they know. ie in breeding produces more Dr's than non in breeding there fore we inbreed as much as possible & when we can not we breed with a family we have previously bred with. This of course increases the chances of Dr gene passing to the offspring, as Dr gene is possibly in their blood line too.

Blood is not math, it doesn't get divided up into % or fractions. the gene is either passed on or not. Just like my mates who both have brown eyes & have 4 sons and one has blue eyes. The gene for blue eyes was carried somewhere by both parents and he got it, but his siblings did not.

If that gene which gave them all brown eyes was the dr gene, the parents and the three brothers would all be dragon riders, but he would not. he'd be the Targ kid who's egg failed to hatch.

Traits such as eye color and hair color are not passed on over many generations if you have diverse breeding customs. Take for example a black person going to live in Scandinavia. What will remain of their genetics after several generations of breeding with the locals? Absolutely nothing, the black person will have fair complected blue eyed descendants. The reason Dany still looks Targaryen is because there have been instances of marrying other blonde haired purple eyed Valyrians every few generations. Otherwise, she might well have brown hair by now or such. Her traits are not because Aegon had them, it is because her immediate ancestors had them. If there is such a thing as a dragon riding gene, it is almost certainly lost by now, overwhelmed by more typical horse riding genes! I'm not entirely convinced someone has to have special blood to ride a dragon anyway. People like Nettles suggest otherwise. The incest was probably just to concentrate wealth and power in a single family.

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Yeah I wasn't sure, about those. To be honest I only spent a quick 5 minutes on it. Lysene are Valyrians, but High Valyrians? I'm not sure, so I deferred. Same with the Dornish - could not remember if they are First Men or Andals for the life of me, probably first men I imagine though.

It's all very very rough, because I do not know the DNA composition of females who married into the Targaryens, but to be fair the fluctuations would be not that significant.

High Valyrian is a language, not an ethnicity. You might be thinking of dragonlords, who were the ruling class of Valyria and were the only ones who could tame/ride dragons, but ethnically they were the same as the other Valyrians. That's why in Lys, which began as a Valyrian resort colony and still has a mostly Valyrian ethnic population, most people have the silver-gold hair and purple eyes of Valyria.

Dornish are a mix of First Men, Andal and Rhoynar. Some have more of one than the other, but I doubt there are any "purebloods" at all. Same thing goes for the rest of the Houses throughout Westeros. With the possible exception of certain Northern houses, everyone is a mix of First Men and Andal at this point.

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