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Forever May

Disillusioned with Targaryens (Rhaenys as an adulteress)

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Not going to comment on some of the more... ah... in-depth and personal postings here, but I did want to comment on the following paragraph because it involves the key to the question at hand that I posted on earlier, and would indicate if there was any extra-marital foolin' around to begin with:

We don't know about the nature of Aegon's, Visenya's and Rhaenys's relationship but it's certainly unconventional at least in the sense that it's not a traditional monogamous husband and wife setup with more or less clearly defined roles. It could have different in other ways either because of the expectations, personalities and dynamics between the persons involved or because of unknown Valyrian/Targaryen customs which obviously differed from ours/Westerosi ones. We don't know what their expectations were and whether that included exclusivity for all parties. It's probable, but it's just an assumption. Whatever the arrangement was, we know all the parties, including Aegon who could have easily protested if he was upset about his wife's alleged 'adultery', seem to have been happy with it.

Firstly, it's good to note the lack of clearly defined roles. To the Valyrians the roles might have been SOMEWHAT more clearly defined, but the polygamous part was less common than the incestuous part, so even this would have probably been more up in the air for them.

What we know is that it was expected for Aegon to wed Visenya. It was not expected of him to wed Rhaenys. Even what little we know of Visenya's personality -- and lack of much mention of a relationship between her and Rhaenys -- would suggest this would result in at least SOME resentment on her part. If not because she wanted Aegon to herself (it does not appear she particularly did) then because for the good of her family, she has to be married to someone that it doesn't seem would choose her first if not otherwise obligated.

It doesn't appear that this likely resentment was enough to cause infighting. There might be a number of reasons for this, first and foremost how alone the three of them were at the top of their empire with only Orys, the cousinly houses of Velarion and Celtigar, and the impersonal relationship of the colonial-class Free Cities that kinda-sorta shared at least their culture. Secondly, despite the fact that they were conquorers, all three don't seem particularly bloodthirsty or quick to violence. In fact all three appear to have been of cool heads and temperment. And thirdly that Visenya, as the most-agrieved party in this situation, appears to have been very devoted to the family legacy.

In other words, what I get out of reading the accounts is that in their eyes they must have seen things as the three of them against the world. And that, more than anything, led to a lack of infighting despite resentments.

Had this setup happened later when the Targaryens were more integrated in Westeros and secure in thier power... a.k.a, after Jaeherys I gave the Targs their new real identity as rulers of Westeros... then ironically it might have been more likely for the three to become pettier about the whole thing. Because unless Visenya and Rhaenys had such a relationship between them that they WANTED this setup even half as much as Aegon, for obvious reasons, would, then it's not something that would have long survived on its own considering each of them has access to their very own Dragon (and frankly, would not have good odds for success even if it had started out that way).

That same notion however -- that Aegon and his sisters saw themselves as only truly able to rely on one another despite interpersonal disappointments -- would lead me to think that Rhaenys didn't actually sleep with other men. There was way too much at stake, and there's a big difference to being curious about the arts and practices of a different culture and deciding to have a few one-night stands with men from that culture. It would have been incredibly dangerous for her to do: the Dornish alone would have been itching to slip an assassin in there, and there were any number of resented houses in all of Westeros that were not yet used to Targaryen rule. Any number of them would have jumped at the opportunity to get someone in bed with her to slit her throat.

Plus, there's just entirely too much motive for people who would later want to court Visenya's favor to say Rhaenys was sleeping around. Because it seems to me that Visenya might have loved her sister enough to be angered by her death (see her blasting away of Dorne after Rhaenys's death as proof) and to endure Aegon's favoritism, but certainly not to support Rhaenys's son on equal footing with her own.

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Err... You don't see the gap in your logic?

You mean, have regular sex with another man, just like he was having regular sex with another woman?

Unless Rhaenys was also getting busy with Visenya, Aegon and Rhaenys were not in an equal marriage.

Or maybe he just didn't want to, because he wasn't interested?

Why aren't you railing against Aegon's unfaithfulness to Visenya? He was the one who decided to marry Rhaenys out of desire, even though he was already married/going to marry Visenya. Did anyone force him to marry her? Per your explanations, that couldn't have happened.

Per all accounts, Visenya was not having sex with anyone else but Aegon. She did not take another husband. There are also no indications she had other lovers. She was quite a looker, too, all three of them were. No doubt she could have banged any number of males, or females, but didn't, verdict faithful.*

*Or maybe she just wasn't interested in anyone. and Aegon may have been only interested in Rhaenys, but if we're ignoring such a possibility for Aegon, why not for Visenya, too?

So? By your own logic, wasn't Aegon an utter bastard to Visenya?

he did not go around banging random boy's and girls.

the Valyrian's had a polygamy custom, as long as what he did does not go against what valayrian's consider a faithful marriage, and it does not go against his marriage vows. then no that does not make aegon an asshole.

aegons parent's probably arranged that marriage without regards to aegon, feeling's. as is normal in asoiaf.

and once they were married i very much doubt he could have ended the relationship with Visenya. without a very pissed off Visenya. who happens to own a dragon. for political reason's he could not have ended the marriage to Visenya.

nope not without any children she produce's being regarded as a bastard, by westeros nobility. as they don't have parental tests.

(cue rebellion that get's thousands of people killed.)

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Ok, I'm going to try my best not to come across as patronising. And please understand that that is not what i am intending. Though it will be hard to articulate this in the written form without it possibly seeming to hold that connotation.

You are very, very, very, young. And no matter how much life experience you have it is not a lot of years to be alive. And I understand your thinking you have a ton of life experience. At your age I honestly thought I did too, and tbh compared to most 14 yr olds I did. I left home at 14 so I know I was dealing with real life shit that most kids my age just didn't have to comprehend. By 14 I'd had my left arm broken after being thrown against a wall, I'd had an attempt to poison me with prescription painkillers, an attempt to drive me off a cliff, I'd been strangled, I'd had to bail out of a moving vehicle, I'd seen my heavily pregnant mother thrown down a flight of stairs, I'd lived through my mother going into prem labour and loosing my baby sister, I'd had sex, I'd loved, I'd experienced religious zeaoltism, been exposed to control and shame and the horror of the prospect of loosing my "reputation" "honour" and my fathers all important pride. I'd been to nightclubs and bars, I'd taken most every recreational drug you can name, I'd had to cope with the guy who ran our newsagent shop being a paedophile that ran over and killed my brothers best friend after he was exposed. I'd been to festivals and concerts hitch hiked the length of Britain, I'd had to get my head around my ex boyfriends dad having an incestuous affair with his sister, and going public about it, I'd been bullied every day of my life at school over being a Mormon, being an outsider, because my family moved to a small insular community, because I spoke with "big" words and was far too clever for my own good. I'd shot a rifle, I could dismantle and assemble said rifle, I'd killed animals hunting, could skin and gut most anything you could hand me. I'd basically lived a shit ton more than your average 14 year old........And I still know I knew a shit ton less then than I do now at almost 34, and a mother of three who has kept a strong loving equal relationship going for 17 yrs.

I won't try to lecture you about human kindness, understanding, forgiveness, and learning to be humble. You have your own journey. Good luck on it.

That is the longest paragraph I've ever read. You should be proud you can hold my attention. I usually skip walls of text.

Anyway. I was trying to have a mature discussion, but you dismissed it because of my age. What does that tell you? And age really does have nothing to do with it. I was sitting with my mother the other day, for example, and there was this sixty or so year old woman with us. She is married, kids, you know. And there are these gay guys living down the street. One of them is a ladyboy, dresses and looks like a woman, you know. So this old lady, she says, "But all they can do is hug and kiss, because they're both men!" My mother laughed and filled her in. The old lady was genuinely surprised. I mean, seriously, what kind of idiot makes it through sixty years of life, marriage and childbirth, all without ever hearing of oral or anal sex? Some people either get it or some don't.

I get it. And the reason I get it is because I ask a lot of question to people like you. Well I appreciate your answers, the ones you gave, but not your conclusion... that I am just too young. Dismissing my views because of my age is a sign of foolishness. I only adhere to traditional views on morality and femininity, something which is not defined by age. But have you your way. Although I would recommend you take a look in the mirror.

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Eh? I've seen Robert called a womanizer back when I was lurking on the forum a couple of years ago before even registering.

Maybe. It's just, when I first called Robert by the word, people weren't even sure if the definition was correct. Now it seems as though every second person is using it.

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Err... You don't see the gap in your logic?

You mean, have regular sex with another man, just like he was having regular sex with another woman?

Unless Rhaenys was also getting busy with Visenya, Aegon and Rhaenys were not in an equal marriage.

This is based on the assumption that Visenya and Rhaenys were uncomfortable with polygamy. I doubt they were uncomfortable with it, I mean there is no reason to think they were. And assuming then that this was a proper marriage with serious vows, why should one be allowed to break the vows?

And how is it unequal just because there are two women? That makes no sense. Equality has nothing to do with this. Or if equality has does anything to do with it, then their gender should have nothing to do with this (because when equality becomes reality, gender becomes irrelevant). Somebody else, I forget who, said to me a while back that it depends on the balance of power and control in the marriage to define fairness and equality. This is a true thing. If the power and control was split evenly three ways, then it is fair. And given we know the prominent roles Visenya and Rhaenys played in their politics and war, I don't think there is any reason to believe Aegon was... what's the word for being oppressive in marriage? I don't know it. You get what I mean.

I've had this discussion fifty times before over the last week anyway, it is starting to get repetitive. A marriage is a marriage, regardless of who they are, their genders, their numbers, their sexual orientation, their age, whatever. Love is not a sin. This is the only point that matters in the end. Was Aegon in a fair and equal relationship with Visenya and Rhaenys? A relationship where they have equal voices, equal say, equal influence, so on. And if so, then the person who breaks this bond against the wishes of the others is breaking the vow of marriage and the trust of love. That is a crime and a sin.

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You are making quite a lot of assumptions, the first and foremost believing the rumours to be true without any evidence whatsoever. There's little that people love more than to gossip about their betters and see them brought down to their level - it is the main reasoning behind the tabloid business. The more scandalous the better. Celebrity X has stretch-marks just like me! Celebrity Y slept with that guy - I would never be such a slut! Of course they are having an affair, there are photos of them leaving the same restaurant! For more in-universe examples you only need to consider all the nonsense being said about Daenarys, people legitimately considering Patchface Shireen's father and people with zero knowledge of genetics who might have never seen Robert, Cersei, the royal children OR Robert's bastards are perfectly ready to believe that Joffrey/Myrcella/Tommen are bastards born of incest with Jaime (I know it's in this case true, but except for Jon Arryn, Stannis and Ned no one has even the benefit of circumstantial evidence to back it up).

Everything we know about Rhaenys suggests she was way too shrewd to have on OPEN affair - she was the most political and diplomatic of the siblings. If she had a lover (or a sperm donor) she would have been discreet. All we know is that she was beautiful, gregarious, outgoing and charismatic and liked to surround herself with like-minded people. Healthy parents have children with a different personality and/or poor health all the time but that doesn't mean the child is not theirs and suggesting otherwise is frankly preposterous. Problems with fertility/children born premature/stillbirths etc are well documented in the Targaryen family tree.

We don't know about the nature of Aegon's, Visenya's and Rhaenys's relationship but it's certainly unconventional at least in the sense that it's not a traditional monogamous husband and wife setup with more or less clearly defined roles. It could have different in other ways either because of the expectations, personalities and dynamics between the persons involved or because of unknown Valyrian/Targaryen customs which obviously differed from ours/Westerosi ones. We don't know what their expectations were and whether that included exclusivity for all parties. It's probable, but it's just an assumption. Whatever the arrangement was, we know all the parties, including Aegon who could have easily protested if he was upset about his wife's alleged 'adultery', seem to have been happy with it.

Read it. Can't be bothered replying to it (I've been over this stuff earlier in the thread, that's all). But thanks for the input. All is noted.

Imagine the same scenario as with your parents, two people who used to love each other growing apart. But imagine that for whatever reason a divorce/separation wasn't a viable option (as it wouldn't have been for Rhaenys/Aegon for example) - would you say that they would then be obliged to stay together forever and never look for another partner? What if your mum found someone else before your dad managed to save up enough to move out - would she be obliged to put her life on hold until that happened? What if they had no children?

Sorry if these are too personal questions; I'm just trying to use your example to imply things aren't always black and white.

They're not too personal. But it's really a dumb point to make, sorry. Basically you are asking me to imagine the worst scenario in the world. Yes, I can imagine it. It is really bad. And what's the point? Either you do have another relationship, then people will say about how you're married but with someone else (even if not true), people might tease me wherever, say my mother is a whore or I am a bastard. Well it isn't a pretty sight, your reputation suffers. Although we don't have political implications like in Westeros, but it is still annoying when people talk about you behind your back. Or if you don't have another relationship, you die celibate. That is bad too.

But this is just a ridiculous and pointless example. There usually is an honest way out of any situation. The example I gave was my father going without a lover for a few years and doing this for the sake of our family's reputation, my mother's honor. It is simply a small sacrifice, by placing those important to you first. He didn't have to do this however. A handsome white man living in SE Asia has no shortage of potential lovers, I am sure you can imagine. But it was the responsible thing to do. That is what a person should always do, the most responsible thing. What they should not do is a selfish thing that can cause insult or hurt to others, even risk causing violence.

There is almost always an honest way of doing things, so I don't like hypothetical distractions.

But just assuming we are talking Westeros style strict, okay. Let's say you're married to a lord, you are his lady, but you do not love him. In fact, you can't stand him. He doesn't beat you, but nor is he kindly. He doesn't bathe, you suspect he visits the whore house, he is drunk most evenings. And you are young and beautiful and could have had so much better. And want so much better. Maybe you agreed to the vows at first, thinking that although he wasn't your type, he was an honorable fellow and your ladyship would be a notable station. But now you have buyer's remorse. Okay. What to do? Live with a man that does not interest you for the rest of your life, or take matters into your own hands?

I admit, there's no easy way to answer this. It depends entirely on the situation. If he was really bad and you did some spider work and discovered he was cheating on you, dishonoring you, I honestly wouldn't be above poison! I mean, what else can you do? If he doesn't respect you, then you don't have to respect him. Stooping to his level and taking a secret lover however, I do not see that as a solution. It only risks creating more problems and risks making you look like the harlot, the villain. Another solution I might seriously consider is running away to the Free Cities or to Oldtown or somewhere far away.

Honestly, it depends on too much. There is no easy answer. A bad situation can rarely be solved with a good answer. But if you detest your husband for adultery, you should not commit the crime yourself. You should not become the villain you so detest.

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This is based on the assumption that Visenya and Rhaenys were uncomfortable with polygamy. I doubt they were uncomfortable with it, I mean there is no reason to think they were.

Your entire argument and this thread is based on the idea that, if Rhaenys indeed had other lovers, Aegon was uncomfortable with that. There is no indication he was. There is no more reason to think he was than there is reason to think Rhaenys and/or Visenya were uncomfortable with their arrangement.

And how is it unequal just because there are two women? That makes no sense. Equality has nothing to do with this. Or if equality has does anything to do with it, then their gender should have nothing to do with this (because when equality becomes reality, gender becomes irrelevant). Somebody else, I forget who, said to me a while back that it depends on the balance of power and control in the marriage to define fairness and equality. This is a true thing. If the power and control was split evenly three ways, then it is fair. And given we know the prominent roles Visenya and Rhaenys played in their politics and war, I don't think there is any reason to believe Aegon was... what's the word for being oppressive in marriage? I don't know it. You get what I mean.

It's unequal because Aegon was supposed to be sleeping with two people, while Rhaenys and Visenya were both supposed to be sleeping with just one person. Surely that should be self-evident with no need for explanation?

It would have only been equal if Rhaenys and Visenya had both been bisexual and their marriage and sexual relations had been three-way.

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Maybe. It's just, when I first called Robert by the word, people weren't even sure if the definition was correct. Now it seems as though every second person is using it.

There's no maybe about it - folk were calling Robert a womanizer long before this thread. Years before. Google "Robert Baratheon womanizer" - you'll find threats on here from years ago, as well as links to other sites.

People were aware of what a womanizer was, and that it applied to Robert. He's just more commonly referred to as a whoremonger, to the point he's nicknamed The Whoremonger King.

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I've had this discussion fifty times before over the last week anyway, it is starting to get repetitive. A marriage is a marriage, regardless of who they are, their genders, their numbers, their sexual orientation, their age, whatever. Love is not a sin. This is the only point that matters in the end. Was Aegon in a fair and equal relationship with Visenya and Rhaenys? A relationship where they have equal voices, equal say, equal influence, so on. And if so, then the person who breaks this bond against the wishes of the others is breaking the vow of marriage and the trust of love. That is a crime and a sin.

A discussion you should have never started. What is normal for 1 person in a marriage is not normal for another. There's no evidence that Aegon had any problems wit Rhaenys being with other people (which again, is just a rumour) and this marriage was far from normal in it's design.

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That is the longest paragraph I've ever read. You should be proud you can hold my attention. I usually skip walls of text.

Anyway. I was trying to have a mature discussion, but you dismissed it because of my age. What does that tell you? And age really does have nothing to do with it. I was sitting with my mother the other day, for example, and there was this sixty or so year old woman with us. She is married, kids, you know. And there are these gay guys living down the street. One of them is a ladyboy, dresses and looks like a woman, you know. So this old lady, she says, "But all they can do is hug and kiss, because they're both men!" My mother laughed and filled her in. The old lady was genuinely surprised. I mean, seriously, what kind of idiot makes it through sixty years of life, marriage and childbirth, all without ever hearing of oral or anal sex? Some people either get it or some don't.

I get it. And the reason I get it is because I ask a lot of question to people like you. Well I appreciate your answers, the ones you gave, but not your conclusion... that I am just too young. Dismissing my views because of my age is a sign of foolishness. I only adhere to traditional views on morality and femininity, something which is not defined by age. But have you your way. Although I would recommend you take a look in the mirror.

I'm not saying you are too young to have the discussion, but I am trying to show you that as much as you think you know about life and the world now there is still a lot to learn and see and experience. And as you grow your opinions may well change. As I said when I was your age I felt very similarly ( I was still influenced by my life long indoctrination in a very restrictive religion) and now that I am older I see things very differently. Your arrogance in rejecting anything but your own extremely narrow minded view is, immature. It is as immature when it is encountered in a 55 year old as much as it is in a 14 year old. Though at 14, it is more understandable. Hence why I'm still talking with you. As earlier when I was assuming you were an adult, you will remember I had simply dismissed you as a troll.

The mature person accepts that others views differ and respects their right to hold different views. Therefore when debating those differences of opinion does not use words such as crime, harlot, slut and sin. Which are words designed to be emotive and cause unease and fear. by evoking authority and judgement and the user has absolutely no right to be assuming such a position.

I hope as you grow that you realise other peoples opinions & your precious "reputation", are in this regard not important, and fear of social reprisal ought not to cause you to live anything less than a full and joyful life. You never know you might one day find yourself in a situation which right now you think you would never ever be in..

Say your husband is hit by a horrible disease, such as alzheimers, and you are faced with 20 years of being a living widow and you meet a man, or develop feelings for a person you already knew. You might feel very differently about infidelity if it is you in that scenario, once you are in it and not simply judging from the outside. There are countless situations where people are unfaithful and when you are on the outside looking in it is far too easy to pass judgement. I don't believe we should do so. especially not when all we have to go on are petty rumours.

To bring it back to topic, I think there have been some really pertinent things said, regarding the triangle of V+A+R. And I have myself concluded the rumours are simply Bull Shit. I don't think she cheated, but if she did I'm certainly not passing judgement. I don't know what I think regarding Aenys, maybe he was conceived via sperm donor, and if he was I couldn't care less, Rhaenys is just as much blood of the Dragon as Aegon and I have no problem what so ever with the entire Targaryen line descending from her. But maybe he was not conceived that way, maybe he was Aegon's son, and if so great. Makes no odds either way in my opinion regarding them as a dynasty and most definitely either way the important bit, the abillity to ride dragons got passed on.

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I don't understand how its possible to be disillusioned with Rhaenys and such when we know nothing about Valyrian marriages. We have no idea what roles they took on. Jaenara Belaerys flew her dragon as far as she could over Sothoryos I can't imagine the idiots of Westeros thinking that was an acceptable thing for a woman to do, but the Valyrians don't seem to have batted an eye and her account was written down and recorded and referenced by Maesters.



One woman took her dragon with her to Yi Ti when she married so they can't that strict about keeping the dragons solely in Valyria and the bloodlines pure. We know very little about the way things were and how their marriages work so trying to work out what was acceptable and what wasn't when we nothing of how it work seems destined to be a discussion that goes round and round but never comes to any kind of conclusion .


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Forever May,



you presented the case that Rhaenys committed a crime/betrayed her beloved brother-husband if we assume that she had any lovers. If you do that, you should also provide us with the following textual evidence:



- proof that Rhaenys actually had an affair (all we have are just rumors).



- proof that Rhaenys actually loved Aegon as a husband, and proof that she married him of her own free will (no such textual evidence exists).



If we go with your scenario that Rhaenys had affairs we could only judge it if we had any details on those affairs (which we don't). There could be dynastic reasons for Rhaenys to have affairs if Aegon was incapable of/had difficulties fathering children, there could be sexual reasons (for instance, Aegon could be turned on by the fact of watching Rhaenys having sex with other men - if that was the case, he may have forced/encouraged her to 'betray' him).



Just going on and asserting 'adultery is evil therefore Rhaenys is bad' does not do the trick.



As to Valyrian polygamy:



We know that polygamy was not as common as incest in Valyria, and apparently mostly practiced among the so-called 'sorcerer princes' of Valyria. The only other known polygamist among the Targaryens besides Aegon and Maegor is Aenar Targaryen, the one who relocated the family to Dragonstone shortly before the Doom.


Nothing suggests that there was any other polygamous Targaryen between Aenar and Aegon. Thus it is very unlikely that Rhaenys/Visenya were actually comfortable with the whole polygamy thing. Only if Targaryen polygamy was common - which it was not - could we assume that Rhaenys/Visenya would have been really comfortable with the polygamy thing.


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Read it. Can't be bothered replying to it (I've been over this stuff earlier in the thread, that's all). But thanks for the input. All is noted.

How generous of you.

They're not too personal. But it's really a dumb point to make, sorry. Basically you are asking me to imagine the worst scenario in the world. Yes, I can imagine it. It is really bad. And what's the point? Either you do have another relationship, then people will say about how you're married but with someone else (even if not true), people might tease me wherever, say my mother is a whore or I am a bastard. Well it isn't a pretty sight, your reputation suffers. Although we don't have political implications like in Westeros, but it is still annoying when people talk about you behind your back. Or if you don't have another relationship, you die celibate. That is bad too.

But this is just a ridiculous and pointless example. There usually is an honest way out of any situation. The example I gave was my father going without a lover for a few years and doing this for the sake of our family's reputation, my mother's honor. It is simply a small sacrifice, by placing those important to you first. He didn't have to do this however. A handsome white man living in SE Asia has no shortage of potential lovers, I am sure you can imagine. But it was the responsible thing to do. That is what a person should always do, the most responsible thing. What they should not do is a selfish thing that can cause insult or hurt to others, even risk causing violence.

There is almost always an honest way of doing things, so I don't like hypothetical distractions.

But just assuming we are talking Westeros style strict, okay. Let's say you're married to a lord, you are his lady, but you do not love him. In fact, you can't stand him. He doesn't beat you, but nor is he kindly. He doesn't bathe, you suspect he visits the whore house, he is drunk most evenings. And you are young and beautiful and could have had so much better. And want so much better. Maybe you agreed to the vows at first, thinking that although he wasn't your type, he was an honorable fellow and your ladyship would be a notable station. But now you have buyer's remorse. Okay. What to do? Live with a man that does not interest you for the rest of your life, or take matters into your own hands?

I admit, there's no easy way to answer this. It depends entirely on the situation. If he was really bad and you did some spider work and discovered he was cheating on you, dishonoring you, I honestly wouldn't be above poison! I mean, what else can you do? If he doesn't respect you, then you don't have to respect him. Stooping to his level and taking a secret lover however, I do not see that as a solution. It only risks creating more problems and risks making you look like the harlot, the villain. Another solution I might seriously consider is running away to the Free Cities or to Oldtown or somewhere far away.

Honestly, it depends on too much. There is no easy answer. A bad situation can rarely be solved with a good answer. But if you detest your husband for adultery, you should not commit the crime yourself. You should not become the villain you so detest.

Well, I wanted you to imagine what you termed the worst scenario to illustrate that life is messy. In an ideal world, there would be an honest and 'good' way to deal with every sitation it throws at us, and I'm sure all of us like to believe we would behave in that manner, but it is not always the case. Things happen at the worst possible time. Sometimes your choice is only between the bad and the worse alternative. It's in fact one of the main themes of ASOIAF. Some people are lucky enough not to have to face such a situation, but most people aren't.

Strict Westerosi style? You probably married the guy at a very young age, not because of any conscious or informed choice but because your parents chose him for you. Even if your upbringing wasn't especially sheltered you probably weren't involved in any real relationship and had limited contact with with men of the appropriate age and social station. Chances are you never met him until your wedding day. You didn't really buy anything - you were bartered away by your parents. Divorce is impossible. He doesn't even have to be especially horrible - but maybe you have little in common, maybe he frequents whores like seemingly a big part of Westerosi men, maybe he spends all his time hunting with his friends, maybe he's twice your age etc. You could be Sansa marrying Joffrey, or Lysa marrying Jon Arryn or Cersei marrying Robert or one of the latter wives marrying Walder Frey. As long as you're discreet and make sure you bear him an heir, is an affair truly so terrible a crime?

What I find curious is the fact that you seem to think that adultery is unacceptable under ANY circumstances, and the cheater a despicable human being no matter what their circumstances or reasons, yet you happily promote murder as a reasonable response to a man you don't even love cheating on you. Why would you even be that bothered if you despise him anyway? If you respond by also finding a lover you turn into a villain but if you poison him (!) you don't? Really?

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It would have only been equal if Rhaenys and Visenya had both been bisexual and their marriage and sexual relations had been three-way.

The fanfics write themselves, I imagine.

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It would have only been equal if Rhaenys and Visenya had both been bisexual and their marriage and sexual relations had been three-way.

The fanfics write themselves, I imagine.

That would be hot......... :leaving:

Now that you mention it, and with the word "disillusionment" in the title, I'm disappointed that this is not canon. Or that there wasn't at least rumours of Aegon bedding the both of them... why these rumours don't exist? What's wrong with people??

(actually, I can imagine some Lord suggesting it and some other saying "shut up, you fool! we don't want to make him look more awesome than he already is!")

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Now that you mention it, and with the word "disillusionment" in the title, I'm disappointed that this is not canon. Or that there wasn't at least rumours of Aegon bedding the both of them... why these rumours don't exist? What's wrong with people??

I'm tempted to join in on the joke, but for some reason even MORE tempted to consider: hey yeah, why WEREN'T there those rumors? I mean, if they're brave enough to gossip that Aegon's a cuckold, this wouldn't be nearly as bad. Especially since he's, well, married to them both. It would seem a logical conclusion that the three of them often shared one bed, or at least that they did at one point.

Most likely:

1) Those rumors DID exist, whether they were true or not.

2) Because we don't hear those rumors in the text, alas, the royal three-way scenario is probably not true. Or at least not true once they left Dragonstone.

3) Also because the text says that Aegon spent one night with Visenya for every ten spent with Rhaenys. This implies that the intercourse was mutually exclusive, even if the marriage was not. Again, sure: maybe that's just trying to make Aegon look better through history in the light of the Seven, but, also again, if they're willing to print the rumor that Rhaenys was having affairs...

And frankly, the three of them not getting it on together just plain works better as a story. Not as a porno, sure, but it makes them more interesting characters to understand the whole situation as three people who had the most power anyone has ever had since the end of Valyria -- and they STILL didn't have what they really wanted. That Aegon and Visenya grew more distant as the years went on says volumes.

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^ I really like the way GRRM deconstructed what seemed to be one of the classic male fantasy tropes: in addition to being this great legendary warrior, conqueror and king, an epitome of masculinity, power and success, he seemed also apparently was in the "Dude married to two hot chicks, hubba hubba" scenario (well, minus the fact they were his sisters). But when we found out more about the marriage, it turns out it was nothing like any such fantasy: he didn't even want Visenya and just married her for duty, Visenya doesn't seem to be any more into him than he was into her, and in later years he could hardly stand her so much that he made sure they were apart; while Rhaenys, the one he actually wanted, is rumored to have had other lovers.



In addition, GRRM subverts the "masculine" ideal by hinting that Aegon may have been infertile (with the possibility that his sister wives may have both resorted to alternative means of impregnating themselves and carrying on the dynasty, through other men and black magic respectively). There's also some deliberate subversion of stereotypes in the fact that it's the weak king, Aenys, who had no problem having a bunch of kids (while his brother who prided himself on his warrior nature had obvious fertility issues).

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Now that you mention it, and with the word "disillusionment" in the title, I'm disappointed that this is not canon. Or that there wasn't at least rumours of Aegon bedding the both of them... why these rumours don't exist? What's wrong with people??(actually, I can imagine some Lord suggesting it and some other saying "shut up, you fool! we don't want to make him look more awesome than he already is!")

It was probably the only thing that the Dornish admired about them.

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