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Forever May

Disillusioned with Targaryens (Rhaenys as an adulteress)

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'The Sons of the Dragons' makes it pretty clear that, if we assume that Visenya poisoned Aenys, she did so only after he had effectively given up Westeros and the Iron Throne. When Aenys arrives on Dragonstone, where Visenya resides at that time, she goes to him and pleads that he should unleash his dragons on the Starry Sept and the Sept of Remembrance in King's Landing to punish the rebels, or, if he did not want to do it himself, give her leave to do it in his stead. Aenys refuses, and confines her to her quarters in Sea Dragon Tower.



At that point, Visenya must have realized or come to the conclusion that, unless somebody would take charge, all she and her siblings had accomplished and built would be lost. That would be enough of a motivation for Visenya to kill Aenys, I assume, although it is not really proof.



From her chambers she could not personally administer the first dose of the poison that made Aenys sick (but she could have acted through some agents), and he may have been really sick at first - the stress of the whole rebellion may have been way too much for him. That his condition bettered at first while he was under his care could have been a clever ploy to ensure that no one would suspect she was poisoning the king, especially if Aenys' original breakdown/sickness was caused by magic rather than poison (Visenya could have done that from her chambers).



The fact that Aenys collapsed and died after he heard the news about Rhaena and Aegon in the West could be a hint that he was in fact broken by the stress and died of nervous breakdown/heart condition thing, rather than poisoning. But it is still an odd coincidence.



Prince Aegon could have come more after his father, as he seems to have also met a sad end beneath the Gods Eye, incapable of rallying much support behind him despite the fact that he was the legal and chosen heir of his father. But we don't know too little about him to decide that.



On the Rhaenys thing:



If she had affairs, then Aegon (and Visenya) clearly would have known it, and the fact that Aegon obviously turned a blind eye to it (as he did not, well, have her executed) strongly suggests that he did not have a problem with it. Especially not if this whole thing was indeed part of his way to finally have an heir.



And the stuff about Rhaenys entertaining many lovers is clearly nothing but a rumor. It may be that she chose one of her favorites - perhaps even some guy with Targaryen or Valyrian blood - to father Aenys, but this would then not have been an affair but a short sperm donor task (and I imagine the guy did not live to brag about this thing...).



If Rhaenys had had many lovers, this would have caused real trouble/unrest at court, and people would have demanded that Aegon leash his sister-wife, and much more people would have doubted who Aenys' true father was.


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I’m just going to assume this is a troll thread, because the entire OP has this tone of puritanical misogyny and purity worship that reminds me of 19th century commentaries of the life of Anne Boleyn.


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No. If I was taking a piss, I would not be able to write. Hands would be busy. Duh.

Also, that's my opinion. If you don't agree, suit yourself; I'm not going to force it upon you. But, hey, a little secret: it's valid interpretation. In my opinion, a woman that cheats openly in a husband that loves and treats her well and goes to the point of passing another man child as his is a horrible wife and person. For example: Robert and Cersei are terrible husband and wife, respectively. I think we can agree with that. As much of a terrible wife Cersei, however, she has excuses like Robert's abuse. Rhaenys, in that case, would not have this excuse; as far as we know, Aegon loved and treated her well, and his marriage to Visenya was because of duty. Of course, she can (and should) be unsatisfied about this and pretty pissed off, but openly humiliating him and passing another man son as his would be a dispropornate retribution. Life, "x slapped me, so I cut off his fingers".

So... can you see why I think the way I do? As a wife, Rhaenys would be worse than Cersei, since she would be doing "worse" (arguably; Cersei had children with her twin brother, but it was a secret and, before the war, was only with him. Rhaenys apparently had sex with many men openly, which led to rumors) and with less justification (say what you will, but as far as I see, Aegon is a much better husband than Bob).

On second thought, I theoretically

could piss without hands. Freestyle. However, things would probably go out of control. I could accidentally piss on my shoes, and that would be bad. At any rate, no, I was not taking a piss.

... But I'm kind of feeling the need right now.

... Be back in a sec.

My surprise was that you seem to spare not one single care at all for the woman's feelings in this. But only care about the man's feelings/pride.

Say Rhaenys wasn't in love with Aegon, she has to just live her whole life as his dutiful faithful wife because he loves her?

We don't know anything about the circumstances of their marriage other than that Aegon loved her in a romantic manor. Also the text does not say Rhaenys cheated openly at all. It says that she had many comely men in her entourage, and the rumours were that she took her favourites to bed on the nights her husband was in another woman's bed.

Now I know Visenya and Aegon were also married, but come on now, what's good for the goose and all that. Why on earth shouldn't she have lovers. It's not as though Aegon is faithful to her now is it. Duty is all well and good as a reason to wed Visenya. But Duty doesn't make him have sex with her. He is doing that because he either wishes to, or he wants to impregnate her. In which case as has been pointed out don't you think that after between almost one and possibly two decades he may just have realised it ain't gonna happen. In which case respect the wife you love enough to keep to her bed only. See Rhaenys may not have been head over heels with Aegon, it may simply be than daddy Targ granted Aegon's wish to wed both sisters. So why on earth should she be faithful when she didn't choose him, never loved him etc.

If she did love him, and she did get pregnant by another man I'd say the chances are far and away stronger that Lord Varys is right and Aegon was indeed infertile, and they considered together to get her with child by someone else.

By jumping instantly to the conclusion Rhaenys was a horrible persona and a terrible wife and using ugly words to describe her you show you have not at all considered the context within story and just adopted real world prejudice and sexism to cast your judgement on her.

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I’m just going to assume this is a troll thread, because the entire OP has this tone of puritanical misogyny and purity worship that reminds me of 19th century commentaries of the life of Anne Boleyn.

:agree:

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My surprise was that you seem to spare not one single care at all for the woman's feelings in this. But only care about the man's feelings/pride.

Of course, she can (and should) be unsatisfied about this and pretty pissed off, but openly humiliating him and passing another man son as his would be a dispropornate retribution. Life, "x slapped me, so I cut off his fingers".

Really? Are we really taking that route? The "I don't care about the woman" route? Come on, we can do much better than that.

If you have wed for duty, you have to have sex. We see this, Eyes. Stannis dislikes Selyse, yet he has to have sex with her (by the love of all that is Holy, I am NOT saying that he shouldn't, don't even come with that or I'm banging my head agaisnt the wall). Tyrion didn't have sex with Sansa after the wedding, and he faced pressure because of this from the likes of Tywin. The marriage is necessary, yes, but what people really want is a marriage with heirs. Husband and Wife are both expected to have sex at least until a heir is born (I don't know, however, when Maegor was born, so I will not go into a discussion of if Aegon took Visenya's bed after this).

However, there is a difference between having sex with another of your husband/wife in the case you have multiple and having sex with various men or women. Say, for example, who do you think was doing worse to his respective wife: Aegon, having sex in one night out of ten with Visenya, or Robert, having sex with multiple women right in Cersei's face? (please, do not take in account Robert's physical abuse for that situation in particular - I'm focusing more in the sexual issues at hand).

On the other hand, consider this; who did worse to her respective husband? Cersei, by having sex with Jaime behind Robert's back? Or Rhaenys, by having sex with various men when Aegon was with Visenya in a somewhat open way? She would be, in a strange way, similar to Robert in the sex-thing.

Of course, I'm not saying that she should simply have kept quiet and said "no, husband, you are right, please go have sex with my sister". She obviously should have been pissed and should have reacted with, I don't know, having a discreet lover with which she made sure of not getting pregnant (since that could really screw the dynasty), or deny him her bed, or make him choose. Something like that. What she did, however, was disproportionate and dangerous; it could really screw thing down the line with rumors such as the ones we have.

And that all is considering that all of this did happen, and it was in these exact circustances. This has many variables. As I said, I'm only making comparisons and pointing out reasons why some people may dislike her for that.

And, please, do avoid calling me a sexist, ok? I mean, you quite literally know me for a hour or two, have never had a good conversation with me, don't know me in person and is, so far, only seeing me defend my point of view. That is not very different of a guy who looks at a woman dress and decides things like "she is a whore" or "she is a golddigger". Please, reserve judgements about me until you know for sure that I'm really what you think I am.

Yes, I read all your post. Just quoted only that part in particular because it was the part that stood out.

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yes I really am bringing sexism into it, and No I won't retract that I think sexism does come into it.



Your post indeed did imply you give not one jot about Rhaenys feelings, desires etc only Aegon's.


That is why I thought you were making fun, as yes the OP was really full of " puritanical misogyny and purity worship" . So yes it surprised me that anyone would seriously agree with it.


Rhaenys was not blatently flaunting multiple lovers in front of both Aegon and the realm though, she was rumoured to be having lovers. Which means nothing, Maergery is rumoured to have lovers, and we know this is a construct of Cersei's. How do we know the rumours of Rhaenys infidelities were not similarly motivated, Perhaps they were posthumously spread by Maegor's cronies and Visenya herself in order to add weight to his own claim?


Maybe she really did and Aegon was cool about it. Maybe Visenya had lovers too but people were too scared of her (after all she practically ruled the realm) to say it.





On the other hand, consider this; who did worse to her respective husband? Cersei, by having sex with Jaime behind Robert's back? Or Rhaenys, by having sex with various men when Aegon was with Visenya in a somewhat open way?



But you are asking me to compare something we know as fact, to something which you have extrapolated from a rumour and which you have no proof of.




Now I never called you a sexist, did I. I simply said I felt it likely you were allowing real world sexism and prejudice to colour your reaction. and it is not the same thing. I haven't called you anything. I wouldn't.



I do feel looking at the RUMOURS in context to ALL the information we have is a surer way to ascertain the truth, than jumping to the assumption Rhaenys cuckolded Aegon, making a fool of him and humiliating him in front of the entire realm, passed a child off as his own who was not, without his knowledge and was a terrible wife.


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Leading troops in battle gives you a negative fertility modifier - I thought everybody knew that? :P

Tell that to Nymeria.

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yes I really am bringing sexism into it, and No I won't retract that I think sexism does come into it.

Your post indeed did imply you give not one jot about Rhaenys feelings, desires etc only Aegon's.

That is why I thought you were making fun, as yes the OP was really full of " puritanical misogyny and purity worship" . So yes it surprised me that anyone would seriously agree with it.

Rhaenys was not blatently flaunting multiple lovers in front of both Aegon and the realm though, she was rumoured to be having lovers. Which means nothing, Maergery is rumoured to have lovers, and we know this is a construct of Cersei's. How do we know the rumours of Rhaenys infidelities were not similarly motivated, Perhaps they were posthumously spread by Maegor's cronies and Visenya herself in order to add weight to his own claim?

Maybe she really did and Aegon was cool about it. Maybe Visenya had lovers too but people were too scared of her (after all she practically ruled the realm) to say it.

But you are asking me to compare something we know as fact, to something which you have extrapolated from a rumour and which you have no proof of.

Now I never called you a sexist, did I. I simply said I felt it likely you were allowing real world sexism and prejudice to colour your reaction. and it is not the same thing. I haven't called you anything. I wouldn't.

I do feel looking at the RUMOURS in context to ALL the information we have is a surer way to ascertain the truth, than jumping to the assumption Rhaenys cuckolded Aegon, making a fool of him and humiliating him in front of the entire realm, passed a child off as his own who was not, without his knowledge and was a terrible wife.

You know, that is one of the reasons I say you don't know me that well. I made fun, yes, I make fun of pretty much anything that is not really serious. That makes things easier to deal with. If I were to abstain the "piss-jokes" from my previous post, it would have a lot more weight, and not in a good way. I make jokes to avoid that, so that this doesn't become something stressful. Look at you, for example; you seem quite stressed by this thread, when in the end it's little more than someone you don't even know being angry and frustrated at fictional character. I doubt this forum was made with that intention in mind, and there are things on this thread that are unnecessarily agressive, don't you agree?

But I did! I'm sorry, but if I didn't, I would have not included the quoted part. The issue simply is that, in that particular hypotethical situation, I simpatize more with Aegon than with her, since she did the most wrong in that situation than him, in my opinion. For example, Robb broke the marriage to the Freys. The Freys killed and humiliated him, his family and his vassals. He was also in the wrong here, but the Freys were much wronger, and that is why they get more hate and he get's more simpaty.

About rumors, we have to agree to disagree in that. "Where there's smoke, there's fire". Yes, Cersei spread false rumors about Margaery, but Cersei is someone who hates Margaery and wants to see her fall. As far as we know, Margaery is as pure as a saint, but there is facts that someone could question in this (the reunions with her lady friends [though I particulary don't in this one at least], the flirting with the Kettleback, etc). So, there's "fire" - though, obviously, nothing to big. The reason this was developed is because Cersei had interest in it.

On the other hand, we do not know of anyone who could have interest in spread those rumors about Rhaenys. Perhaps Visenya, but as far as I know (never had TWOIAF), there's nothing really pointing at her. And there is the fire with the way Rhaenys keeps singers and all. How can I explain... have you or one of your female friends ever been surrounded by guys - friends, co-workers, etc., people with which you spend your free time? When a man/woman spends too much time with people of the opposite sex, people imagine they have some sort of relation. Now, that is the "fire". Like you said, it could have been done by Maegor or Visenya, but it simillarly could also be truth - there is at least one rumor that was proven truth in ASOIAF, and his name is Daemon Blackfyre.

Well, you did say that sexism and prejudice were acting in my judgement, so, I kinda assumed you meant I was sexist by that? I mean, if people were voting to ban the cutting of trees in a certain area, then you voted not to ban this, and then people said you are voting this way because you had interest in this, one would assume you sell wood or something like that.

... That was a terrible metaphor. Anyway, if you're not calling me sexist, then I'm cool with it. Sorry for any offense.

Anyway! Like I said, I really don't care about all this. I can see how the OP can think the way he/she/they does, and agree with it in that particular situation, but that's about it. This is getting far too stressful, anyway, and I have to avoid stress. So, what do you say? Can we reach a agreement, shake hands and be friends? We can even go get a drink! On you. I don't have a penny.

Leading troops in battle gives you a negative fertility modifier - I thought everybody knew that? :P

-50% if I'm not mistaken, heh?

Incredibly rude joke coming now.

WHY CAN'T I FUCK PEOPLE WITH MY DICK AT THE SAME TIME I FUCK THEM WITH MY SWORD?

THIS IS NOT THE POWER FANTASY I WANTED!

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Wow, it's not every day you hear "harlot" evoked. I was going to talk about female control of pregnancies in Westeros and even bring in some speculation based on the Dornish practice of paramours, but given that this:



So it all comes down to trusting the honor of an adulteress. That's a relief.



pretty sure there's nothing to be said.



If this is what you find disillusioning, so be it.


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Leading troops in battle gives you a negative fertility modifier - I thought everybody knew that? :P

On the other hand, it also gives the character a random chance to sire a bastard.

I never intended to "make the eight" as an ambition, but it ended up happening regardless. It turned into something of a vicious cycle towards the end - I had to keep fighting for claims because I wanted to make sure that each bastard had something to inherit. Needless to say, there were a lot of civil wars in the following generation, not least because the love that once existed between spouses soured into not-so-secret hostilities.

I'm not saying that it was the wife who made sure my character died in a poop explosion, but it was probably the wife.

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I assure you I am not at all angry, or stressed. I simply feel it is worth looking at the rumours in context to the situation described in the text. And not jumping to conclusions which are based on sexism. the sexism being the presumption that a woman who has multiple male friends must be having sex with them.(because why else would guys hang out with her.) You describe this yourself as reason to believe the rumours and seem to think I ought to agree with you, that it is perfectly reasonable for a person to be judged as promiscuous due to having male friends.





How can I explain... have you or one of your female friends ever been surrounded by guys - friends, co-workers, etc., people with which you spend your free time? When a man/woman spends too much time with people of the opposite sex, people imagine they have some sort of relation. Now, that is the "fire"


And this is exactly what I mean, when a man spends a lot of time with a group and lots of them are women people do not automatically assume he is having sex with them and if they do assume that in the context of ASOIAF (and alas in our own world) it is not seen as a problem, or a big deal. But when a Woman spends lots of time with a group which includes men, people will and do automatically assume she is having sex with them and she is judged poorly for it. now add in her being married and people will be calling her a harlot etc. People hanging out with the opposite sex is not "fire" that they are having sex with them, its simply them hanging out, but sexist assumptions mean many will assume she is fucking them. the smoke is the rumour the fire is non existent, fire would be that she really is screwing her singers. Her hanging out with them is not proof of that though.



In reality people are perfectly capable of having friends of the opposite sex. And to spread malicious gossip or believe such rumours smacks of sexism. It plays into all manor of social and historical oppressions.



It really is very easy to conclude Rhaenys suffered from the snide rumour mill so many women do, now perhaps she had a lover, and if so I am inclined to buy Lord Vary's assumption that Aegon was shooting Blanks, but if so I'd put money on him being in on it.



And in context with the text, ie the history we now know about the Targaryen conflicts following Aegon I death, yes it seems that spreading a rumour or even reigniting an old one about Rhaenys's being unfaithful would indeed serve the Maegor side very well. And logically it makes sense that this would be where such a rumour persisting stems from.



And assuming as you did that the smoke(her having male friends) was indeed indicator of a fire plays into the idea that women are property,she shouldn't have male associates because she belongs to Aegon. and you're asserting that Rhaeny's desires are irrelevant and Aegon's pride is all important. ie she is a vile woman for cheating on him because he loved her, What if she never loved him? Why should she not have lovers if she is in a marriage she never wanted? This is very possible, all we know of them is that Aegon wanted her. no one says how she felt. It's an assumption that the marriage was equally desired. And if she is in a marriage she never wanted why the hell shouldn't she have a lover? if she did so what. if she didn't maybe that smoke was just Visenya stood behind the curtain having a fag.



Heavily edited as I read it back and realised it was a jumbled mass of incoherent thoughts. lol


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To be honest Rhaenys seemed the most political of the siblings i doubt she would not give aegon an heir (its just that aenys came out more timid it happens look at Aegon IV and daeron II and Aerys and Rhaegar) the son need not be exactly like the father was. On the notion that she cheated sigh could be possible TWOAIF made her sound like a huge flirt so it is possible one singer may have gotten far.


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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-30281333



It happens people.




On another note you don't seem to understand how genes are passed down, let me explain.



Your children have 1/2 of your genetic material, for your genes to be successful you must therefor have 2 or more, your grandchildren will have 1/4 of your genes, so you need 4 if you want your genetic legacy to be maintained. Bloodlines don't necessarily make genetic sense, after all Elizabeth II (the current Queen in case you didn't know), is a direct descendant of Richard the Conqueror (his reign began in 1066), however she would likely have none of his chromosome and barely any of his actual genes.


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It could be that Aenys wasn't Aegons. I won't be dismissing be the idea. Aegon named him heir, over any other bloodrelative (the same way Corlys named Addam and later Alyn as his heir over his own nephews, or supposed grandchildren), so no matter Aenys' parentage, he rightfully inherited... And, he would have been half a Targaryen no matter what, anyway. So the Targaryen line did continue.

I'm not really certain what to make of Visenya. If she truly magically became pregnant with Maegor, it would appear she cared about the bloodline continuing... Yet with Maegor in exile and Aenys ill, she take over care for Aenys, and he gets better. (that, I find, is also the strange part about the rumours concerning her role in Aenys' death.. he first got better when she took over.. it was only later that he died).

I would find it more likely that she wanted Maegor to take the throne over Aegon, besides personal ambition (which, as Queen Dowager who practically ruled for quite some time, would be unavidable..), that Maegor was an adult, and strong, and as she had raised him, she'd know exactly what he could handle.. their family needed to survive, here was no room for hesitating rulers.

We know little about Prince Aegon.. was he a bit like Aenys? That could have strengthened Visenya's wish to put Maegor on the throne during the uprisings.

In any case, while it could have been that Aegon didn't have any sons conceived the regular way, the rumours concerning Aenys are biased, indeed..

Is the theory not that they were Corlys' bastards, but he wouldn't acknowledge them as such because of Rhaenys? Even then, did they not originally come behind Lucerys and/or Joffrey even after being legitimized?

If Aegon acknowledged Aenys as heir but knew that he wasn't his biological son, perhaps the actual gather was Orys. If he was a bastard half-brother then he'd be of Targaryen blood, meaning Aenys was Targaryen on both sides.

Personally, I prefer to think both Aegon's sons were actually his sons. Maybe Aegon just had problems siring an heir. Perhaps blood magic was used. But I don't yet see anything in particular that suggests Visenya would definitely have used sorcery but not Rhaenys. It's also possible that what we know of Rhaenys sleeping with other men comes from Maegor's reign, and perhaps the intention was to cast doubt on Aenys' paternity.

(Not arguing that there's evidence for any of these theories. Just throwing ideas out there.)

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I'm sure it happens in Westeros too, but apparently, in Westeros they have the suppereffective Mooontea.

Consider this. Rhaenys sleeps with Aegon during a Monday. She might or might be not pregnant with his child. Then, she goes to her lover a Tuesday, and drink moontea to prevent getting pregnant by this fellow. Bye bye, Aegon's baby.

Whatever relationship they three siblings had, R and V seemed to have been loyal to Aegon, and follow him on his idea of conquering Westeros. I see no reason why either of them would cuckold him with some other man's child, considering they had birth control available. Cersei did it out of spite, not because she accidentally got pregnant by Jaime. She has been sleeping with Jaime for years and she didn't get pregnant. I'm sure Rhaenys also had the tools to not have a child by a man who wasn't her husband.

Also, none of them seem to be the maternal/paternal type. That doesn't mean they didn't love their children once they got them, but I think Aegon was more into having a child to continue his dynasty rather than because he wanted kids. Rhaenys liked her fun and Visenya was more a warrior than a mother, with little interest on his husband. Also, when you're conquering a whole continent, a pregnant warrior or children aren't exactly something you need. It wouldn't be odd to assume that they didn't want to have yet children and only worried about it when they already got control of Westeros.

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Orys was the prisoner of the Wyls while Aenys was conceived, if I'm not mistaken. Thus this would not be possible.



Bot to mention that black-haired Orys would not exactly be the best sperm-donor for Aegon's child.



We know that Visenya was a sorceress - or rather that she supposedly practiced sorcery. Rhaenys did not.



And 'The Sons of the Dragon' gives really a hint that something weird is going on with Maegor's conception. First, Visenya is supposed to be barren, then Aegon is desperate that Aenys might die (following Rhaenys' death), and the Lords are pushing Aegon to take another wife. Suddenly Visenya announces that she is pregnant and confident that she will give birth to a boy. That is awfully convenient...


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Disillusioned with Targaryens after reading World of Ice and Fire

[This thread contains quotes from The World of Ice and Fire. So if you don't want "spoilers" from that then don't read it, I suppose, though it's just history. Although the actual topic is concerned with the Targaryen bloodline in general, not just that novella.]

Apparently, the history reads that Aegon the Conqueror married his eldest sister Visenya for duty (as was tradition) and his youngest sister Rhaenys for love. And then they throw this into the mix:

Whilst no one ever questioned Visenya’s fidelity to her brother/husband, Rhaenys surrounded herself with comely young men, and (it was whispered) even entertained some in her bedchambers on the nights when Aegon was with her elder sister. Yet despite these rumors, observers at court could not fail to note that the king spent ten nights with Rhaenys for every night with Visenya.”

I don’t get why? I’ve been trying to work my head around this disheartening snippet. Albeit it is just a rumor, but are we not supposed to believe it? For all I can gather from a writer’s perspective, an inconvenient piece of information such as this does little to make Rhaenys’s character more “interesting” but does plenty to discredit the entire Targaryen Dynasty.

It seems to imply Rhaenys slept with another man every other week. And if that was true, what kind of man was Aegon to love and keep to wife such a harlot? That made me wonder if the snippet had been included in the story less to elaborate on the characters and more to spite polygamy. A way of saying, “Well if the man had multiple lovers then so could the woman.” The history continues:

“But though his father and brother, Maegor (who was Visenya’s child), were both warriors born, Aenys was made of different stuff. He had begun life as a weak and sickly infant and remained so throughout his earliest years. Rumors abounded that this could be no true son of Aegon the Conqueror, who had been a warrior without peer. In fact, it was well-known that Queen Rhaenys delighted in handsome singers and witty mummers; perhaps one of these might have fathered the child. But the rumors dampened and eventually died when the sickly child was given a young hatchling who was named Quicksilver. And as the dragon grew, so too did Aenys.”

Although Maegor ruled for some time first, he left no heir. So the entire Targaryen Dynasty came to descend from Aenys, the son by Rhaenys. Now we have a bloodline mothered by a harlot whom may’ve taken a different man to bed every other week and the sole shred of proof that Aegon was Aenys’s father appears to be him having a pet dragon (which is irrelevant, because even if Aenys was a bastard, he still had thicker Targaryen blood than the later dragon riders that succeeded him – meaning that if Targaryen blood does indeed have relevance to dragon bonding, Aenys had bucket loads of it either way).

So when I ask the question, “Do Dany and Jon even descend from Aegon the Conqueror?” The answer is the shrug of the shoulders and a vacant, “Maybe.”

I was trying to work out how thick the Targaryen blood actually is in Dany, percentage wise, which is why I was going over this and thinking on it. There were a lot of marriages to non-Targaryens, Hightowers and Velaryons, so on. But the whole task is sort of made pointless thanks to Rhaenys, because there’s no way of knowing if Aenys was 100% or only 50%. So I just gave up. It seems Dany has less than 15% in either case. It is not that thick. A lot of the time they married “cousins” from House Velaryon, we are talking about people with very thin Valyrian blood and it doesn’t really count as a Targaryen.

Consider, the children of a normal marriage are 1/2, following grandchildren are 1/4, then 1/8, after that it jumps back to a whopping 1/16, then after only a few generations you are suddenly 1/32 and don’t really share any significant blood with your House founders.

I mean, 1/64, 1/128, these numbers make you wonder if there is actually any point in having children to “carry on your genes” whatsoever. Because unless you’re snuggling up in bed with your own daddy for generations on end, your blood is watered down like a drop in the ocean. It is communities that live on, I see that now. Individual lineage and bloodline is a fantasy (the deduction I came to here was a justification of selfishness, by the way, nothing else and certainly not the opposite).

But I thought there was something different in House Targaryen. As disturbing as incest may be to some, it was a romantic ideal in itself to keep a bloodline so pure for so many generations. And then we read The World of Ice and Fire and realize that’s not really what happened. I don’t know why they chose to make Rhaenys a harlot and, as I surmised, it might be for something as dumb as spiting polygamy. There was more evidence that Rhaenys was a harlot if you read on, though it is mostly hypothetical. Chiefly she took steps to reduce the punishment for female adultery, which means nothing in itself but is suggestive of sympathy. You have to ask, why was she sympathetic to adulteresses? Was Rhaenys one of them?

In any case, whether Rhaenys was an adulteress or not, the snippet achieves nothing more than making Aegon look like a fool with horns, Rhaenys like a harlot, then undermines the entire Targaryen Dynasty that followed. I just wrote a huge thread opening a week or so back about Jon being Aegon the Conqueror come again, under the assumption that Jon was Aegon’s descendant. Now it just seems dumb and as though I presumed too much. Some things in A Song of Ice and Fire are like that (dumb). A lot of people take the impression that Martin has stuck to realism through and through (something I was really drawn to). He hasn’t. There’s no way a man such as Aegon whom believes in the purity of bloodlines so much that he marries his own sisters would then go on to tolerate the mother of his “heir” taking randoms to bed. And whilst a character such as Rhaenys might’ve existed in real life, you’ll find them short of a head before their days are done, something that Visenya would’ve made certain of (judging by her character as it is written, not by some fantastic notion of default rivalry between multiple wives) if not Aegon himself whom was being made a fool of.

Don’t get me wrong, A Song of Ice and Fire is still the best tale out there. And this isn’t Martin hate. Like I say in the title, it is just disillusionment. A harlot slew the romance in my awe just so the author could color in a piece of history with a cheap crayon. But no writing is perfect (except for my own, of course). So I’ll just wait and see how the story ends in hope it does some justice for some of these dumb things that happened and continue to happen (not singling out Dany and her oh-so-chaste-oh-oh-oh-again-Daario behavior in particular here, just casually waving my hand in the “general direction” of that thinly blooded Mother of Dragons sitting atop her comfy throne of pillows on high).

In conclusion, if The World of Ice and Fire wasn’t disappointing enough, worse is the reluctant admission that history oft repeats itself. And the Iron Throne as an inspirational symbol suffers for it, dragging the story down to the watery depths of Blackwater Bay. So since the history has been written the way it has, let’s all get ready for the reign of Daario’s bastards after poor Jon Targaryen whom looks like a proper fool for it. I don’t see that as a stable ending for the books (replacing a dynasty of Jaime’s bastards with Daario’s, that is, it will just incite further rebellion), but then I honestly wasn’t expecting Aegon’s story to end that way either. So…

All hail King Stannis Baratheon!

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Rhaenys_Targaryen

Yours truly,

Thow fayrest may that euer went

Why does it matter that they descend or not from Aegon the Conqueror? It was Aegon and his sisters who conquered Westeros. Rhaenys and Visenya played a huge part in the conquest and in politics....Why should it be more important that they descended from Aegon, rather than Rhaenys? They are both founders of the dynasty, and the matrilineal descent can't be doubted.

Matrilineal descent is a recurrent theme in asoiaf, and like Arya says, 'the woman is important too!'.

You know that Aegon himself was only 50% Targaryen, right? To calculate how 'pure' Dany is seems a bit ridiculous. She has Valryian blood, her family practiced incest. Incest would increase the chances of some particular genes appearing with higher frequency in the family, and others, disappearing over time.

Technically, someone born from two 'Half-Targaryens' could be anything between 0% Targaryen to a 100% Targaryen, depending on what genes are inherited from the parents (though 0% and 100% have very low probability). Thus the question in itself is impossible to answer, unless you were to do a DNA testing. And even then, this is a fantasy series.

and, seriously? I've been assuming you're a woman but the amount of misogyny in your post makes me question that notion, now.

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Orys was the prisoner of the Wyls while Aenys was conceived, if I'm not mistaken. Thus this would not be possible.

Bot to mention that black-haired Orys would not exactly be the best sperm-donor for Aegon's child.

We know that Visenya was a sorceress - or rather that she supposedly practiced sorcery. Rhaenys did not.

And 'The Sons of the Dragon' gives really a hint that something weird is going on with Maegor's conception. First, Visenya is supposed to be barren, then Aegon is desperate that Aenys might die (following Rhaenys' death), and the Lords are pushing Aegon to take another wife. Suddenly Visenya announces that she is pregnant and confident that she will give birth to a boy. That is awfully convenient...

I don't think she was infertile. She probably didn't want to get pregnant.

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Visenya (and Rhaenys) would have been completely brain dead if they did not want to have a son by Aegon. And in Visenya's case it would have been completely at odds with her later behavior, as she was trying to push Maegor's claim over Aenys', suggesting that she would actually have been pretty happy if her son had been the elder, as this would have pretty much put her in the better position...


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