Disillusioned with Targaryens (Rhaenys as an adulteress)

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Lord Varys, you win the thread... these two posts contain the best explanation for what might have happened:

It seems that Aegon I was sterile, and Rhaenys and Visenya chose different ways to get 'impregnated by him' anyway. Rhaenys chose a sperm-donor from her favorites (most likely with blond hair and blue eyes), and Visenya may have used magic to make use of Aegon's sperms that way, making Maegor the only true son of the Conqueror (and perhaps also explaining why Visenya pushed Maegor's claim against Aenys).

I'm pretty sure both was done with Aegon's consent, as he would have realized that he was incapable of fathering an heir 'the usual way'. Maegor seems to be created effectively as a last resort, as 'The Sons of the Dragon' suggests that Aegon feared the boy might die in the wake of Rhaenys' death in Dorne. The Lords were pushing Aegon to take another wife to replace Rhaenys, as Visenya was believed to be barren.

Since there are no paternity tests in Westeros, it is to be expected that some children are not really descended from their official fathers.

Not being descended from Aegon I does not make Aenys and the whole Targaryen dynasty scarce any less Targaryen, as they are all descended from Rhaenys/Aenys, and Alyssa Velaryon, who also had Targaryen ancestors.

Rhaenys and Visenya clearly could conceive. Aegon was married to both his sisters for at least nine years when Aenys was finally born in 7 AC (they were already married when the Conquest began in 2 BC, and we have no idea when they married - it could have been as early as 10 BC, if we consider the age of the siblings in 2 BC).

We know that Aegon shared Rhaenys' bed much more often than Visenya's, yet he failed to conceive an heir (either male or female) for nearly a decade, perhaps even two decades). That does not make it likely that he was fertile, especially as he had two wives. He may have shared Visenya's bed not as often, but when the need for an heir arose (immediately after the Conquest), one would expect that Aegon shared both Rhaenys' and Visenya's bed at the right time for them to conceive.

There are also subtle clues that the infertility of the Lord of Dragonstone was not exactly unknown, as Queen Regent Sharra Arryn had the audacity to suggest that Aegon name her son, King Ronnel Arryn, his heir, when she offered to marry him. This is a pretty big hint that she may have expected that Aegon Targaryen would never be capable of having an heir of his own body.

We could even assume that Argilac's offer had also something to do with that, as he would have expected that, if Aegon did not father a child on Argella, Aegon could never possibly lay claim to the Stormlands in the name of his child by Argella. Rather, the Targaryen holdings would fall to him or Argella after Aegon's death.

Finally it is rather suspicious that neither Yandel (nor Gyldayn in 'The Sons of the Dragon') mention any miscarriages, stillbirths, early death etc. for either Rhaenys or Visenya. If that was the case, I'd concede that Aegon could impregnate a woman, but in absence of that, I very much doubt it.

Aegon does not have to be completely sterile (i.e. not producing viable sperm) but may rather have been a man whose sperm could not possibly inseminate a woman under normal circumstances. Absent artificial insemination, Visenya had to use magic to make it work (explaining Maegor's overall weirdness), whereas Rhaenys looked for a sperm-donor elsewhere.

This was not treason/betrayal etc., but a service to the dynasty, as the Targaryens were desperately in need of an heir, especially in light of the fact that the First Dornish War could very well have led not only to the death of Rhaenys, but also to the death of Visenya and Aegon himself.

I think the real issue for some posters is that it's hard for them to think of all-powerful and conquering Aegon I as... sterile. Being sterile and/or impotent would make him less in their eyes, for some reason. Clearly he loved both his sisters, they loved him, and the dynasty continued with Targaryen blood. Nothing else matters.

[Aemond's Eye]

Orys was the prisoner of the Wyls while Aenys was conceived, if I'm not mistaken. Thus this would not be possible.

Bot to mention that black-haired Orys would not exactly be the best sperm-donor for Aegon's child.

We know that Visenya was a sorceress - or rather that she supposedly practiced sorcery. Rhaenys did not.

And 'The Sons of the Dragon' gives really a hint that something weird is going on with Maegor's conception. First, Visenya is supposed to be barren, then Aegon is desperate that Aenys might die (following Rhaenys' death), and the Lords are pushing Aegon to take another wife. Suddenly Visenya announces that she is pregnant and confident that she will give birth to a boy. That is awfully convenient...

I'd forgotten about the time period of Orys' imprisonment. That rules him out. (The black hair thing I'd considered, but if we assume that Orys was a Targaryen bastard then I think it's possible any child he'd have with another Targ might have the more traditional Valyrian hair colour and features.)

I'm not 100% convinced that Maegor was conceived partly using sorcery, but I don't think it's something to rule out entirely. I just don't accept that Aenys wasn't Aegon's son. Rhaenys not being noted as a sorceress doesn't mean that she didn't know of anyone to help with such rituals, if indeed magic had to be used for Aegon to sire a son. (I think if sorcery was used it could also tie in with Aegon being concerned that the sickly Aenys would die after Rhaenys did; perhaps he didn't as Rhaenys was actually kept alive as a prisoner, and by the time she was put out of her misery Aenys had bonded with his dragon.) It's also possible that Visenya was involved in any such sorcery that led to Aenys conception. (Yes, she years later either poisoned him or brought Maegor up to oppose him, but if we assume she resorted to sorcery to conceive Maegor when she & Aegon thought that Aenys would die then it'd suggest the main concern had originally been to produce a dynastic heir, and only later became about her son being the heir.)

[Lord Varys]

Thanks Liz!

It'sAlwaysWinterInScotland,

Aenys sort of reverted back to crawling and would not eat after Rhaenys' death. There was no psychic link or something like that, he was just a mamma's boy.

Technically Visenya could have been involved in a spell to conceive a child with Rhaenys/Aegon, but I don't think that's very likely. We know the sisters competed for Aegon's affection in their own ways, and I really don't see why Visenya should help Rhaenys to conceive a child with Aegon while she had not yet a child with Aegon. That simply does not make any sense.

We see what happens with the really fertile Targaryens - Alyssa has six children with Aenys, and two more with Robar, and Alysanne gave birth to 13 children. Aegon and his sisters had decades to conceive children, and all they could manage was one child per sister-wife. That in itself would have been very suspicious even without the surrounding circumstances.

In fact, I consider it more likely that Rhaenyra's sons are Laenor's than that Aenys' is Aegon's son. Nothing suggests that Jace, Luke, and Joff resemble Ser Harwin, and both Rhaenyra and Laenor have non-Valyrian ancestors (Rhaenyra the whole Arryn line up to her grandfather, Lord Rodrik, and Laenor the Baratheon/Durrandon line up to Jocelyn and Rhaenys along with whoever houses the Velaryons married into when they could get a Targaryen bride).

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I think the real issue for some posters is that it's hard for them to think of all-powerful and conquering Aegon I as... sterile. Being sterile and/or impotent would make him less in their eyes, for some reason. Clearly he loved both his sisters, they loved him, and the dynasty continued with Targaryen blood. Nothing else matters.

Aegon lusted after Rhaenys, but it's never stated if she felt the same. If she had other men, then I would say she didn't mind that much about him. And Visenya and Aegon never got along. He pretty much retired to DS because he couldn't stand her anymore. They were loyal to him because he was their brother and because he was their Lord.

Having a baby is not as easy as GRRM makes it to be. Looks like Jon, Robb, Lysa's baby and Edmure's child were conceived at first time. They were every lucky but that's not the rule. A perfectly healthy couple could take at least one year to have a child, even if trying. Aegon didn't have sex with Visenya very often. And if indeed Rhaenys had other men, she used some birth control. I agree that he might have had weak sperm, but not necessarily infertile. It's just that they didn't need children at the moment because getting his sisters pregnant would be inconvenient as he would lose to powerful dragonriders.

[Lord Varys]

Why the hell should Rhaenys use birth control when she actually needed to deliver Aegon an heir? That makes no sense, even if she had multiple affairs.

Aegon and Visenya did also not hate each other; their relationship only worsened over time, and was not ever a romantic love to begin with. But they did get along reasonably well for quite some time.

We know that Visenya and Rhaenys competed for Aegon's affection, suggesting that they had feelings for him. The assumption that Rhaenys did not really like Aegon makes little sense. If that had been the case, she could have refused to marry him. After all, custom only demanded that Aegon marry Visenya, not Rhaenys as well.

[lojzelote]

Well, low sperm count does not always equal 100% infertility, but it can mean that where another has 10 children, the man in question is lucky to get two. At least if I know. So, Aenys could be Aegon's against all odds, Maegor's conception would be still way too convenient, though.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Well, low sperm count does not always equal 100% infertility, but it can mean that where another has 10 children, the man in question is lucky to get two. At least if I know. So, Aenys could be Aegon's against all odds, Maegor's conception would be still way too convenient, though.

What they needed to conceived was a strong boy, not just "a child". And that's what they got. They could have gotten a girl, but they needed a son. That's the little help they used.

[Light a wight tonight]

Bot to mention that black-haired Orys would not exactly be the best sperm-donor for Aegon's child.

Addressing this point only, genetics in the world of ASoIaF don't work quite as they do in ours. In the case of black Baratheon hair, all we know for sure is that in any Baratheon/Lannister crossing the black dominated the gold.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

To be fair its unlikely it was Orys' black hair that is the magic gene. Argilac had 'famous' black hair and was reputedly descended from gods, whatever they actually were. The Blue Eyes also came from the same pool as Orys had eyes so dark they were practically black.

[The silver dragon]

Tyranny, insanity, succession wars, rebellions, and bloody conquests - and what finally turns you off to the Targaryens is loose women and the prospect that the dynasty might not be the product of incest? Why does it matter?

Incest isn't all it's cracked up to be, anyway. By all rights the Targaryens should be way more messed up than they are, but My Little Westeros: Genetics Is Magic intervenes to save the day once again.

monarchy in general in a nutshell not exclusive to the targs.

[Isobel Harper]

I'm not sure what occurs from 1st generation incest, but offspring produced from incest are known in nature to be less fertile than their non-incestuous counterparts. I don't think that Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys were producted of incest themselves, but given that genetics plays a role in fertility in this way, it might be that Aegon had difficulty producing an heir because genetics played against him.

[Aemond's Eye]

I'm not sure what occurs from 1st generation incest, but offspring produced from incest are known in nature to be less fertile than their non-incestuous counterparts. I don't think that Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys were producted of incest themselves, but given that genetics plays a role in fertility in this way, it might be that Aegon had difficulty producing an heir because genetics played against him.

To be fair, I don't think that applies to the Valyrians. The lore Martin has created doesn't really follow the genetic norms that apply in real life. Fertile and good looking Targaryens after many centuries of incestuous relationships wouldn't really be the case in our world, for example. (And that's even without considering the incestuous relationships prior to Aegon/Visenya/Rhaenys, and it doesn't seem to have been uncommon prior to them - what was uncommon was Aegon marrying both sisters.)

[Florina Laufeyson]

I kinda think that perhaps JonCon's Beard has a good point that Rhaenys used moon tea. Im not sure i buy the Aegon was sterile thing yet.

The OP left me feeling rather disgusted to be frank.

So many levels of disturbance. :stillsick:

Also did it not occur to these people that try to qualify a Targaryen on the quantity of Targ blood they have that Visenya, Aegon and Rhaenys are only "half" Targ in the first place ? Their mother was a Valeryion, for crying out loud. lord only knows how many previous generations of Targaryens married Valeryions and Valeryions married Targs too so does that mean they are not really Valeryions any more based on having 0.000000056% original Valeryion blood

The whole thing is dam ludicrous.

And the dodgy overtones of the OP just leave me feeling pissed off ( But I rather think that was the aim)

You, you are sharing my brain again.

I’m just going to assume this is a troll thread, because the entire OP has this tone of puritanical misogyny and purity worship that reminds me of 19th century commentaries of the life of Anne Boleyn.

I really hope so. If the OP is genuine, im gonna side-eye the fuck out of them.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

All the (many, many) things that could have gotten you disenchanted with the Targaryens (all those wars, ego trips, burnings, etc.) and the hill you chose to die on is Rhaenys' sex life?

LOL OK.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

so much wtf in the OP it's hard to know where to start.

One thing people haven't mentioned - you say at that if there were rumors of infidelity that she'd surely be executed. No. Guess how many queens in history were rumored to have lovers? Most of them. How many lost their heads? Not that many. People love nothing more than to gossip about others sex lives - even to the extent these rumors make it into historical documents. But, it's the least credible type of rumor and everyone knows it.

In the end, people's heads get chopped off for political and personal reasons - not because someone said they are committing adultery. That's just the excuse.

Also you sAid harlot way too much. I mean you could have said whore or slut but sheesh. Chill out.

[Drth Fel]

Team America was before its time XD

Fuck yeah!

[Hodor the Articulate]

Admit it: you made this thread just so you could call Rhaenys a "harlot" a bunch of times, didn't you?

[Drogonthedread]

Admit it: you made this thread just so you could call Rhaenys a "harlot" a bunch of times, didn't you?

no i think you are wrong it was made to declare that daenerys will become a " harlot " like rhaenys

[SeanF]

All the (many, many) things that could have gotten you disenchanted with the Targaryens (all those wars, ego trips, burnings, etc.) and the hill you chose to die on is Rhaenys' sex life?

LOL OK.

The Targaryens are huge fun to read about, due to their wars, ego trips, burnings etc. - and their sex lives. They're like the Caesars, the Borgias, or the Visconti.

[Dofs]

Well, OP, you may remind to yourself that Rhaenys died a horrible death. May be you'll feel better. :dunno: