R+L=J v.121

[Mithras]

2. Wouldn't that kill Jon? I know you and I both think he'll be King of Westeros/whatever the frack is left by series end...?

Jon will skinchange into Drogon. He does not have to ride it physically.

[BearQueen87]

Jon will skinchange into Drogon. He does not have to ride it physically.

I know, but if Dragon (I disagree about it being Drogon...but that's another topic)+Jon go crashing into the Heart of Winter, doesn't that damage Jon's "soul" (I'm actually asking cause I'm not sure how a "soul" would be affected by going all kamikaze while inside a beast)

[sj4iy]

I know, but if Dragon (I disagree about it being Drogon...but that's another topic)+Jon go crashing into the Heart of Winter, doesn't that damage Jon's "soul" (I'm actually asking cause I'm not sure how a "soul" would be affected by going all kamikaze while inside a beast)

Pretty sure he would die.

Also, not sure why it would be JON skinchanging Drogon when he's Dany's dragon. Dany and Drogon are one...if she dies, he dies. There are two other dragons hanging out without riders that Jon could ride before Drogon.

[Mithras]

I know, but if Dragon (I disagree about it being Drogon...but that's another topic)+Jon go crashing into the Heart of Winter, doesn't that damage Jon's "soul" (I'm actually asking cause I'm not sure how a "soul" would be affected by going all kamikaze while inside a beast)

It will certainly leave its shadow on Jon. That is similar to how Bloodraven described the dead CotF inside the raven: a shadow on the soul. We also know that Varamyr found himself hating Jon after bonding with Orell's eagle.

I guess we will see how much Jon will be effected by this experience. Maybe he will take the words of his comrades that if he goes mad (which he first handedly observed from Varamyr) they will tie him up and even kill him if necessary.

[Alia of the knife]

Off topic I realize but I can't send a pm for some reason. Did u listen to the radio Westeros long night Podcast? Do u think that dawn is an other blade, captured by the last hero - a dayne- when they ended the long night?

I just changed jobs, so its been crazy with lots of aSoIaF catch-up, but yes, I think that is a very good theory .

[Mithras]

Pretty sure he would die.

Also, not sure why it would be JON skinchanging Drogon when he's Dany's dragon. Dany and Drogon are one...if she dies, he dies. There are two other dragons hanging out without riders that Jon could ride before Drogon.

I think it is highly unlikely that the dragons of Dany (being so young and small) can survive the entire line of wars in Essos and the Second Dance without casualties. Besides, it would be very Georgian if a dragon or two dies in civil wars while they are desperately needed in the North.

As for Dany/Drogon; Drogon does not need to die if Dany dies. I guess we will see but I believe that Jon will take Drogon while Dany is alive.

[Ygrain]

Agreed, agreed, agreed.

Amen, amen, amen.

[Alia of the knife]

I know, but if Dragon (I disagree about it being Drogon...but that's another topic)+Jon go crashing into the Heart of Winter, doesn't that damage Jon's "soul" (I'm actually asking cause I'm not sure how a "soul" would be affected by going all kamikaze while inside a beast)

First off, love that you and Mithras know your Elric :)

As for Jon, the other side of the balance is that the Others are winter made flesh and it will be interesting how much the Nights Kings coupling with the "she-Other" impacted the Stark bloodline given their own incestuous practices.

Wasn't it a demon king and his daughters the Starks and the other Northmen captured after defeating him where they may have come by their warging?

(I don't have my WB in front of me).

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

There's still two little things bugging me about this....

When Catelyn asks Ned about Ashara, if I remember correctly, he responds by saying somthing like "don't ever ask me about Jon!" .....??

Also, when he first dreams of promise, he wakes up thinking of 'broken promises' if the promise was really keeping Jon safe, how the hell did he break it?

I know, I know, I'm the one behind the times on this theory I guess haha

Welcome to the RLJ threads! Doesn't sound like you're behind the times at all... in spite of years discussing the theory, its strengths and weaknesses, etc., there are still plenty of issues like the ones you raise - statements or memories that don't quite fit the theory, which we can't entirely explain away.

With respect to Ned's flat refusal to let Catelyn in on the secret... it's a great question. I don't think it's ever been satisfactorily explained, and the best reason may be simply that Lyanna made Ned promise he'd keep the secret even from his own wife. Seems like a lot to ask, but then, Ned does feel that he's paid a heavy price in keeping his word to Lya.

And re: the "broken promises" that haunt Ned in his cell below the Red Keep... in my view, the context of that passage is ambiguous. It seems at least as likely as not (to me) that the promises he's broken are those he made to Robert on the king's death bed. But Martin does not make that clear. Rather typical of his style, of course...

[sj4iy]

I think it is highly unlikely that the dragons of Dany (being so young and small) can survive the entire line of wars in Essos and the Second Dance without casualties. Besides, it would be very Georgian if a dragon or two dies in civil wars while they are desperately needed in the North.

As for Dany/Drogon; Drogon does not need to die if Dany dies. I guess we will see but I believe that Jon will take Drogon while Dany is alive.

I doubt it. They ARE dragons, and not easy to kill.

Plus Drogon is Dany's, heart and soul. He's named after her dead husband, after all. I don't see him ever being ridden by someone else.

[JonSnow4President]

Pretty sure he would die.

Also, not sure why it would be JON skinchanging Drogon when he's Dany's dragon. Dany and Drogon are one...if she dies, he dies. There are two other dragons hanging out without riders that Jon could ride before Drogon.

Oh, is this Eragon?

[sj4iy]

Oh, is this Eragon?

? I don't follow...only read some of that and put it down.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Yes, but Ned did raise him and keep him safe, so it had to be something else.

You know I personally don't believe that Rhaegar had changed his mind about his child by Lyanna fulfilling the prophecy, instead of Aegon, but...

That doesn't mean that Lyanna couldn't have concluded stuff after news of Aegon's death reached the tower. So perhaps the promise included "help him fulfill his destiny", meaning, help him safe the world/fulfill his destiny of being the promised prince, etc..

Could that work?

[JonSnow4President]

? I don't follow...only read some of that and put it down.

In that fantasy world, dragons (or their riders) die the vast majority of the time their counterpart dies.

I'm not as familiar with the Westeros history as I should be, but don't we have concrete evidence that dragons outlived several generations of Targaryens, with multiple riders during their lifetime?

[Alia of the knife]

It will certainly leave its shadow on Jon. That is similar to how Bloodraven described the dead CotF inside the raven: a shadow on the soul. We also know that Varamyr found himself hating Jon after bonding with Orell's eagle.

I guess we will see how much Jon will be effected by this experience. Maybe he will take the words of his comrades that if he goes mad (which he first handedly observed from Varamyr) they will tie him up and even kill him if necessary.

I think with the clues we've recently been given from the WB, a fourth dragon, unique to Jon and the North, a dragon able to withstand the cold of winter might be the outlier.

In terms of Jon warging a dragon and given Martins drawing from other influences, the Navajo believe that skin walkers become more beast the longer the human wears the skin.

(Their legends of the skin walkers are so dark, I'm loathe to speak it out loud).

And in Dune, Leto actually becomes physically and mentally Shai Hulud.

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs50/i/2009/287/7/b/God_Emperor_of_Dune_by_solomon_artist.jpg

[sj4iy]

In that fantasy world, dragons (or their riders) die the vast majority of the time their counterpart dies.

I'm not as familiar with the Westeros history as I should be, but don't we have concrete evidence that dragons outlived several generations of Targaryens, with multiple riders during their lifetime?

Oh, I didn't say that he HAD to die with Dany (as a rule), I'm saying that I don't see Dany dying before the end of the WftD, Jon taking Drogon and using him as a kamikaze missile. If that were to happen to Drogon, it would be Dany doing it, is what I'm saying.

[Mithras]

I doubt it. They ARE dragons, and not easy to kill.

Plus Drogon is Dany's, heart and soul. He's named after her dead husband, after all. I don't see him ever being ridden by someone else.

Bigger and better dragons were killed durng the First Dance. And not all of them were due to other dragons. Starting with Meraxes, we see some cases of dragonslaying. TWOIAF mentioned a legendary hero named Davos the Dragonslayer. Fire Eater has a theory that Davos will slay Viserion by firing a scorpion or catapult in a "lucky" shot. (yeah he lost his fingers (luck charm) but perhaps Mel stole them and he will get them back). The fate of Viserion and its rider Tyrion might be similar to Vermax and Jacaerys. I think Viserion will be first dragon to die but not the last. I think it is possible that one of the grand finales of TWoW might be the deaths of Stannis, Tyrion and Viserion.

I think Rhaegal will fall to poison. tze has a very interesting thread about dragonslaying.

[sj4iy]

Bigger and better dragons were killed durng the First Dance. And not all of them were due to other dragons. Starting with Meraxes, we see some cases of dragonslaying. TWOIAF mentioned a legendary hero named Davos the Dragonslayer. Fire Eater has a theory that Davos will slay Viserion by firing a scorpion or catapult in a "lucky" shot. (yeah he lost his fingers (luck charm) but perhaps Mel stole them and he will get them back). The fate of Viserion and its rider Tyrion might be similar to Vermax and Jacaerys. I think Viserion will be first dragon to die but not the last. I think it is possible that one of the grand finales of TWoW might be the deaths of Stannis, Tyrion and Viserion.

I think Rhaegal will fall to poison. tze has a very interesting thread about dragonslaying.

Bigger and better dragons were killed in the first dance by other dragons. That's not an issue here.

I'm saying that I don't see Dany dying and Jon taking her mount when he could more easily take one of the other dragons as his mount.

[Alia of the knife]

I'm not sure that killing the dragons need be that complicated, (as much as I love TZE).

If we take the dragons real-life counterparts, reptiles, who actually take their body warmth which they need to survive from their surrounding environment as reptiles literally cannot move in cold, winter, or the coming Westerosi "ice age" is a weapon itself, which is why contextually, it might make sense to the story to introduce a "winter dragon," taking much poetic license with adaptive evolution.

[King Tyrion XX]

I placed my analysis of Jon Snow's parentage in another forum, but i was told to place it here.

Jon Snow's parentage remains a mystery and great interest among the fans.There are lot of analysis on Jon's parentage and its significance. So I want to share my own analysis under the assumption that "Eddard Stark is not Jon Snow's father". Let me make it clear this is an assumption, there is clear evidence in the Books one-way or another.

Jon Snow is generally accepted that to have been born somewhere in the South towards the end of Robert's Rebellion, within one month, give or take, of the Sack of King's Landing and closely related the House Stark.

Since Robert's Rebellion lasted "close to a year", So time of conception was after the start of the Rebellion.

Since Jon is closely related to Starks, that is he is half-stark. Other than Eddard, there were two members of the House Starks alive at this time of Rebellion - Benjen Stark and Lyanna Stark.

Benjen Stark was up north throughout the Rebellion, so he can be safely excluded as Jon's Father.

So we can safely conclude that Lyanna Stark is Jon's mother under the assumption that "Eddard Stark is not Jon Snow's father". If so there is only one candidate for Jon's father - Rhaegar Targaryen.

Lyanna Stark was under the "custody" of Rhaegar Targaryen throughout the Rebellion, but the nature of this "custody" is unclear.

So we can safely conclude under the assumption that "Eddard Stark is not Jon Snow's father", Jon is son of Lyanna and Rhaegar Targaryen. But it is unclear if Jon is trueborn or naturalborn.

Furthermore, we can conclude that Eddard Stark was involved in a very successful and active cover-up using deception that Jon is his naturalborn son. I say very successful because no-one in Westroes, who knows or even suspect that "Jon is son of Lyanna and Rhaegar Targaryen". But the question is why?

There's so much wrong with that. You basically went "Random words, random words, RLJ is true" without explaining a thing.